Angled Greens = the Best Greens ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do angled greens provide for better strategy ?

Do they demand more precise execution ?

Are they more difficult to recover to ?

Some examples:

# 12 ANGC
#   2 GCGC
#   7 NGLA
#   4 Seminole
#   6 Seminole
# 12 Seminole
# 13 Seminole
# 8 Pine Valley
# 1 Pine Tree
# 13 Pine Tree
# 17 Pebble Beach
# 14 Pine Tree

[brad_miller]

Pat, yes, yes, yes...

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:  Why do you ask?  
I'm not sure where you are going with this question?

I'm also confused about the 17th at Pebble Beach being included in your examples.  A par 3 (like #2 at GCGC) has a different strategy than others due to position of your tee shot.  Maybe that answers part of your question.

[ed_getka]

Angled greens are what I like so much about Stevinson Ranch out here in the Bay Area. There is width to the fairways that allow you to position tee shots to open up the angled greens to your approach. So yes I would say angled greens are more strategic.

Lost Dunes by Doak has mostly open front greens that allow run up shots, but there is so much contour in the greens that I'm sure there is a strategic area of the fairway to approach from for any given pin position. I love the "maintenance meld" into the greens that allow for any shot you want to try. I generally am not comfortable putting from off the green, but at Lost Dunes on #4 I putted up to the top shelf from 35 yards away in the fairway since it was the obvious best choice. I think this course could be played 100 times and nuances would be picked up with every round. I think this course illustrates that greens need not be angled to be very strategic.

I think angled greens are more difficult to recover to. But that may be because I don't possess a flop/lob shot. I generally run the ball in low so recovery up over bunkers is problematic for me.

[brad_miller]

Angled fairways that are not full doglegs are also cool.

[Bill_McBride]

Good question.  I was going to post something about Pensacola CC on the thread recently about how to make flat courses interesting.  PCC is a good example.  Our course is only 6500 yards from the tips, par 72, it's real flat being right by the bay (although no holes on the bay, they spent that land on the clubhouse years ago).  The real secret to the layout is the angled greens.  Most of the greens are subtly angled so that there is a best location for the tee shot. A shot from almost any other angle flirts with some fairly steep slopes around the greens.  This is one of those courses where you are definitely better off being short on the right angle.  Because of that design element, while being very short by modern standards, PCC was able to host the Pensacola Open for years and last year the PGA tour school first round winner was 10 under for four tough rounds.

[John_Conley]

#4 at Spyglass is a cool hole, and was the subject of a heated thread a few months ago.

I love angled greens, but when I first read the post I thought "Flat greens on a pitch".  Garden City has almost all flat greens, but they vary between slopes from R to L, L to R, F to B, and B to F.  Elegant and simple design, but a great way to defend scoring.  Modern greens have too many swales for my taste.

I agree with the point I think you are trying to make, but would exclude #17 at Pebble.  It really plays like two small greens.  One in the front and one to the back.  The hourglass is so small that it isn't "playable" as green.  (I think the pin winds up there sometimes, but the saddle is small enough that it breaks the green in two for all the other hole locations.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Conley,

The 4th at Spyglass may be a better example than the 17th at Pebble Beach.

Joel Stewart,

Don't you find angled greens more demanding on the incoming shot ?

Don't you find that they may create more strategy, perhaps like the 10th hole at Riviera ?

And don't you find that recovery from missing these greens is more difficult ?

If the answer to these questions is yes, why aren't more of them built ?

[TEPaul]

It's a very interesting question but the true answer is the answer can never be that simple!

This kind of question is a good opportunity to discuss all the ramifications of what can make truly good, interesting and complex golf architecture and greens.

Is an angled green the most difficult to recover to? It could be but not necessarily so!

What becomes apparent here is all the mutifarious design features, concepts, slopes, contours etc etc that can be used and interchanged and intermingled in any architectural "workup". Utimately it becomes all about interesting arrangements! The kind of thing Coore calls all the "notes" that can be used in different ways to create interesting compositions--sort of like music.

Certainly it's just as possible for a green that's oriented dead on straight at the middle of the fairway to be just as good as a great angled green if that dead on straight green has interesting slope to it or interesting contour in it somewhere or some combination of those things or even other things!

Then there is the whole other world of concept that has nothing much to do with aim accuracy or orientation accuracy but everthing to do with distance accuracy only. The best example of that might be the very large open fronted (dead on at you) Biarritz green with its primary swale feature it becomes mostly just distance related only! Or maybe the dead at the middle green that falls away from you--again all about distance control.

I think angled greens are great but in a real way they're the most obvious strategically, in my opinion! When you get into other arrangements that are not so obvious but hold real meaning to various options and strategies it can get more sophisticated and maybe even better or even best.

If angled greens really were undeniably the best they'd probably be everywhere. I love them but I'm sure glad they aren't everywhere.

Every kind of imaginable green arrangement that truly works well for a golf ball--those are the best greens.

Isn't it interesting that NGLA has so much of every conceivable type of green arrangement which includes a few great angled ones too?

[BCrosby]

Pat -

Good question.  Angled greens are an easy way to create interest and shot values on otherwise uninteresting sites.  Witness Bill's post on Pensacola.

Is the reason angled greens aren't used more is that they are less forgiving for the weaker player and thus designed less often by archies trying to build user-friendly courses?

My guess is that a round green, even if heavily bunkered at the corners, is more forgiving for a bogey golfer than an angled green having the same surface area with a single, front bunker.  Come to think of it, maybe that's also true for the scratch player.

I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

Bob
 

[ed_getka]

Bob,
 You bring up a good point regarding the architects intent of making the course more playable for golfers. Angled greens definitely are harder for average golfers to negotiate, but as Tom Paul brought up the strategy of the holes is more obvious (great point Tom P). I would think for the scratch golfer angled greens would be easier and greens with more subtle nuances would be more testing for the scratch golfer. Of course this is a guess on part since I certainly will never be mistaken for a scratch golfer.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I would answer "yes" to the three questions you asked.

In my opinion, probably the most demanding angled greens you can play is the 36 holes you find at Winged Foot. The pressure on the second shot is always there because of the way Tillie angled them on all approach shots. There are few "easy" targets and the demands only increase if your tee game goes sour during the round.

Your question bring back my issues on why Bethpage Black was not fundamentally altered to give it more angled greens than you find there now -- too many are either flat or your basic cookie-cutter type. If the Black had the same green designs you find at Winged Foot the competitors in this year's Open would be struggling to find par on just about any round.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Why then do you suppose the greens of the Black are so uninteresting?

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:
I suppose you are correct that they are more demanding but its still a game of yardages and angles of play.  

If you take a straight on green like the 1st at Pine Valley, the pin up front or the pin in the back can make a huge difference just like an angled green.  

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

The only answer I can reasonably put forward is that someone else did the actual construction of the green sites at the Black. I can't believe a master designer like Tillinghast would permit (if he were on site like he was at Winged Foot / Somerset Hills / Quaker Ridge, Five Farms, Fenway, etc.) such plain jane vanilla greens that you have at about 2/3's of the Black Course.

That's why in my opinion I believe the Black was initially routed by A.W. but the actual construction was done by Burbeck. Anyone who has played the Black a number of times will likely say the same things if they've experienced a number of other Tillie courses.

Tillinghast courses demand your attention when approaching them -- he will not permit indifferent approaches because they are pitched in directions that only the well played shot will benefit most. If you should miss just hope you can play the recovery from a bunker because pitching to a Tillie green from high rough with a bunker between you and the target to a green sloping fiercely is one of the most demanding situations I know of in golf. At Winged Foot the nature of angled greens is one of the finest I've ever experienced when playing even though the entire site sits on average parksland. A remarkable achievement indeed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Yes, but, all the features that you mentioned, can be found on angled greens too, hence they have a leg up on strategy and demands upon the golfer for incoming and recovery shots.

Matt Ward,

I agree, Winged Foot's greens are amongst the most difficult to recover to, especially if you miss it to the wrong side.

Joel Stewart,

If the pin is up on # 1 at Pine Valley, one can easily play short or to the center of the green and not be left with a difficult shot.  If the pin is back, prudent play is to the middle of the green leaving one a medium to long putt, certainly not difficult shots that could result in big numbers.

One of the scariest pin positions is far, far right on the 7th at
NGLA.  There is no easy way to play your third shot, unless you're lucky enough to be putting, and then, most likely, you'd have a very, very long putt.  Even though you may have a ten yard to sixty yard shot, it is frightening, and an example of great architecture, and the excitement angled greens can create.

I'm curious as to why more angled greens aren't being built.

[Paul Turner]

Was Mackenzie the first toe exploit thie angled green design.  There's and interesting passage in Tom Doak's book on Mackenzie which highlights this (writing about Alwoodley):

"Most of Colt's greens can fairly described as squarish or rectangular in shape.  Mackenzie's on the other hand, tended to be long and skinny-even accented with an interior curve or a kidney shape.  The result was that a player who hit his drive to the proper side of the fairway was presented with the length of the green for the approach.  The player who drove it on the wrong side, however, was often presented with a broadside approach over a hazard with little depth.  Alwoodley is full of variations on this concept..."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

How do you compare the Black's greens to the greens at Baltusrol Lower ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

There is really no comparison.  Although the Lower's greens overall are not overly dramatic by Tillinghast standards, they have MUCH more internal contour than the Black's greens.

Espcially holes like 3 at Baltusrol, with that cool knob on the front left, as well as others like 16, have so much more going on than anything you see at the Black.

The greens on the Black are smaller, less contoured, rounder, and rely on slope more than anything internal going on.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

"Yes, but all the features you mentioned can be found on angled greens too, hence they have a leg up on the demands and strategies of incoming and recovery shots."

You have a very good point there!!

It would be interesting then to discuss some notable examples of what you're describing!

As seems so frequent in discussing great holes and great designs I might point, AGAIN, to Riviera's #10 as just an example of that!

A beautifully "angled" green without question! And as well evidenced by the completely different strategic decisions of Ted Tryba, Tiger Woods and Davis Love on that hole in the 1998 LA Open I would say you're very right in this particular case!

Tryba drove with an iron short left, Woods longer middle and Love with a Driver right at the green coming up about 10yds short just to the right of the green.

Tryba, SW birdie, Woods SW par and Love with a beautifully executed lob shot over the right bunker (green running severely away from his approach angle), trickling into the back left bunker and a sand shot and 10ft putt to barely make par!

Basically Love was so close but in an almost impossible approach position from which he had to "recover" on his third to struggle to make par!

Good point!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Wouldn't you consider # 6 at NGLA angled, with a zillion neat internal features ?

And then it is followed by the angled green at # 7 with few internal features, but with exquisite boundaries.

I also find that # 8 SEEMS angled as well, but canted in a different direction (L-R)

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I wouldn't consider #6 or #8 an angled green. #6 I would consider primarily a green with an interesting and unusual overall shape and very interesting internal slopes and contours. The only true "angled" greens to me would be #4 and #7 at NGLA.

Riviera's #10 is definitely angled. Merion's #7 is angled to the right side of the fairway, as is #2.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The front right of # 6 green is approximately 100 from the tee.
The back left of # 6 green is approximately 150 from the tee.

I would consider that an angled green.

# 8 presents an optical illusion of sorts.
You know with the pin far right to back right, from the fairway it appears as if the pin is suspended by gangplank off the green, and from the lower fairway, the green seems angled.

The Map at the back of "Scotland's Gift" seems to indicate that the 8th green is angled from the lower fairway.

What should be interesting to you is:  The bunkering on the 9th hole immediately adjacent to the 10th tee.

It is also interesting to note that the map does not show a tee to the left of # 11 and....
That the right side bunker adjacent to the 13th green was at one time in the green, ala Riviera.

I wonder how this map compares to the one in the downstairs hallway adjacent to the locker room, rumored to have been moved to the new proshop.

Also interesting that a bunker appears behind the rear plateau on # 11

Also, the green on # 14 is in its present location.

Notice the swamp behind and right of # 15 green, today mostly pond.

The left side tee is not illustrated on # 16

The map bears a date of 1928, but I wonder how accurate it is.  Do you have a copy ?  

George Bahto,

Can you help analyze this map and confirm its accuracy ?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I love angled greens from a strategic point of view. I have played a number of Jack N courses that take a good thing too far. A well thought of course he did in gulfport Miss called Grand Bear has 14 of the 18 green either set to the right or to the left with trap in front and in back. the greens take alot away from an otherwise good course.

[Gary_Nelson]

Angled greens (and fairways) at High Pointe made for a lot of unhappy golfers this weekend on my annual golf junket with the guys.  The weaker players couldn't understand why they were being punished so severely on their approach shots... compared to the other 6 courses we played over the weekend.  I'm a regular reader of golf architecture stuff and am a low handicapper.  I'm the only one in the group who understood the architect's design intent and just took my lumps when my approach shot from the wrong side of the fairway bounced across the green and off the other side.   The other 7 guys in the group never want to come back to this "unfair" golf course and will likely spend their golf dollars on the easier resort courses in the area.  All of us were playing the course for the first time and had no local knowledge of the green angles and bail out areas.

My guess is that angled greens aren't being built on public/resort courses because the golf course owners are in need of repeat business.

After being thoroughly trounced by High Pointe's greens yesterday, I'm eager for another round this summer... but this time I'll have a better mental picture of where to hit the tee shots.  

Gary Nelson

ps.  This is my first post.  Great website.  I'm addicted.