Role of golf carts in modern golf architecture?

[Mark_Fine]

Yes I know we all don't like golf carts and hopefully will never have to rely on one to play the game.  But according to a comment made by Tom Fazio at the recent GAP meeting in Phildelphia, roughly 1/3 of the 18,000 golf courses in the U.S. are boarderline unplayable and/or would never have been built were it not for golf carts.  If this is true and you assume that roughly 1/2 of those 18,000 courses are "classic" designs of which I'd guess 90%+ of those are walkable, that means nearly 2/3 of the 9,000 modern courses require golf carts to play them.    

Have golf carts saved the game    

[Mike_Cirba]

Have golf carts saved the game?

Mark,

What the hell did Fazio do to you in that room??

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Don't shoot the messenger    I didn't take a stand here, I just asked a question?  How do you explain the number of cart-ball courses that have been built vs. walking courses??  
Mark

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark:

I think the question that should be asked is, "Can a fee paying/resort course operation, make money for its operators without the use of carts?"

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

I think Mr. Fazio's contention that 1/3 of the 18,000 courses in this country "are borderline unplayable" without golf carts is frankly absurd.

Mark, we've both played a LOT of golf courses across this country.  How many would you say were "unplayable" without a cart??

I can probably think of roughly 10-20 out of 600+.  

I understand that people with physical problems would probably place that number higher, but for most of us, what's wrong with a long walk?

[John_Conley]

This discussion highlights why Tom Fazio was not hired for Bandon Dunes.  According to DMK, Mr. Fazio said the same to Keiser.  

[Mark_Fine]

Bob, that is a good question.  Don't have the answer!

Mike, I might be able to answer that question as I've always make a note to judge the ability of the average golfer to walk a course when I've played it.  I don't have a number or percentage at my fingertips.  I will say this, there are courses I've played liked Blackwolf Run River that I walked (because I hate reviewing courses while riding in a cart, you just can't do it properly) but I wouldn't want to walk it again!

I just played Norman's Shark Tooth in Destin, FL and you wouldn't want to walk that one.  Interestingly Fazio's course right down the street called Camp Creek which I played is very walkable.  

Shivas, Clearly it is easier to route a course when you don't have to worry if it is walkable or not!  

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

I have no idea what you mean by suggesting golf carts have "saved the game".

It seems to me the game is in far better shape across the pond where carts aren't nearly as prevalent.

Thank heavens people like Mike Keiser understand we Americans don't always have a great sense of what is good for the game.

[Lou Duran]

Carts have made the game of golf more accessible to more people.  They've made it possible to build relatively interesting courses in land not ideally suited for golf.  And, it can be argued, that their contribution to the bottom line plus that of associated real estate components have resulted in more golf courses being built than otherwise would have been possible.  With a 65-75% profit margin, Bob Huntley's point is well taken.  I dislike carts vehemently, but I recognize that I am in a very small minority.  Just keep the paths hidden and away from the line of play, make their use discretionary, and force riders to stay out of areas sensitive to compaction.  

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
Lou makes some good points.  My comment about "saving the game" was more to stir discussion.  But if it is true about the number of courses built that really aren't all that fun to walk or would not have been built without carts, it does make you wonder what impact carts really have had on the game of golf!  Think about the numbers!  Think about the housing projects for example that golf courses are the central part of.  How many of them would you really want to walk every other day to play?  
 
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Cart paths can assist a course prone to wet conditions.

Many community/residential golf courses, by virtue of the location of the home sites, are playable with carts/paths, where they would be almost unplayable without them.

In some situations they do help, but... I don't know how one would verify or refute the statistic.  Where did it come from ?

[A_Clay_Man]

Those perpetual profit machines may have brought the onslought of the greedy profiteers, who have liquidated the quality to a homogenous fizz.

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

I guess you shouldn't ask a question unless you really wanted that question answered.

You seem focused on the economic benefit of carts.  Your theory seems to be that without carts fewer courses would be built or that people wouldn't want to play housing project courses.

Even if the theory is correct, that hardly amount to saving the game, in my opinion.

Not long ago I got fixed up with a couple 15 year olds down at my local muni.  They were riding a cart.  So I decided to do my best to be a grumpy old man and barked at them:

"What the hell are you doing in a cart?"

Without hesitation, one of these young fellows shot back:

"Casey Martin does it."

When I asked if they were crippled somehow, they decided they didn't like me very much and didn't say a word the entire round.

Mark, again, if you think carts are good for the game, you are welcome to your opinion.  I've just got a bit too much Irish golf in me to ever believe such a thing.

[Peter Galea]

Thank GOD for carts!

If not for them I wouldn't have been able to play this game we love for 17 years!

Now that I have been "repaired," I would rather walk each day than ride.

However, I would never deny the use of one to those who need it.

[Mark_Fine]

Tim,
I'm a walker and one of the strongest advocates for caddy programs that you will find anywhere!  I also believe every club should allow pull carts to further promote walking for those who struggle to carry their bag for 18 holes.

All I am saying about carts is that IF the numbers that Fazio suggested at the GAP meeting are true, carts have had a SIGNIFICANT impact on the game of golf - maybe more than any of us want to realize.  And I'm not suggested by any means it's all positive.  I was just curious about people perception.

But lets face it, courses like The Plantation which I happen to love, would never have been built without them!  
Mark

[A_Clay_Man]

Who would share the actual workings (numbers)?

WHat does  a cart cost? How many times (lifetime) will it be rented? Multiply the rate times the frequency and don't forget to figure for insurance.

Now, How can a place like Spyglass justify $50.

If the margins are in the gauging category this is were the fork in the road occurs. oink oink

[Lou Duran]

Tim,

If the dialogue with those teen-agers went as you related, they deserved better treatment.  The Casey Martin anecdote is very similar to the Clinton/Lewinsky excuse which people use to explain why teenagers today look at oral sex as no big deal.  Let's face it, carts make golf easier, they are fun for the youngsters, and serve as a status symbol.  It is not Martin or Clinton driving these disturbing trends, it is the benefits of the activities, perceived or otherwise.

I am not Irish, but I am a die-hard, USGA bag-tag totting Walking Member.  Holding everything else equal, I would join a walking only course.  Yet for people like Peter, and for anyone else who opt to use carts responsibly, I fully respect their choice.  

Just like riding has some negative impact on course conditions, riders complain that walkers never sand their divots and often hold up play (please, no discussion that walkers are faster than riders, that is pure bunk).   Carts do bring more people to the game, and as an industry, golf needs all the help it can get today.   I'll overlook the unsightly cart paths, grit my teeth when I have a tight lie because of compaction, and make a "cost/benefit analysis" whether to play a course where the carts are mandatory or otherwise impossible to walk.  

In my fantasy world, I would just play Pine Valley and Cypress Point on alternate days, with ANGC, NGLA, Shinnecock, and their kind mixed in to break-up the monotony.

[Tim Weiman]

Mark Fine:

I have no reason to doubt Fazio's numbers or the suggestion that carts have had a significant influence on golf in America.

I just believe the influence has been negative and hope we Americans will not export our bad habits to places like Scotland, Ireland, England or Australia.

The existence of carts tends to make people here lazy.  Young people get hooked on them like cigarettes and never learn to enjoy golf the way it is supposed to be played.  Carts usually contribute, in my opinion, to pace of play problems and strike me as bad from a course maintenance point of view.

Then, there is also the point Adam Clayman is making: carts are responsible for increasing the cost of playing the game, an undersirable development in my opinion.

Surely, you are aware of the old Alister Mackenzie story in which the Good Doctor runs into a woman he hadn't seen in years.  Mackenzie tells her he is surprised he hasn't seen her husband (for health reasons) in years.  The woman explains that ever since her husband took up golf (at Mackenzie's suggestion) his health has been just fine.

You can imagine that someone like myself who prefers playing Ballybunion's Cashen course over nearly any course in the world would be sympathetic to the Mackenzie story.  Even with the softening, walking the Cashen is quite a healthy workout and I love it for that.

Pete Gelea:

I do understand some people couldn't play golf without the existence of carts.  Too bad we can't figure out a way to provide this element of the population with a cart and prevent them for everyone else.

You've probably heard Tom Doak's comments about the second course at Stonewall being built with carts.  Apparently, the club decided to do this to prevent carts from ever being introduced to the first course.  I can live with that.  Indeed, I would mind if the next course at Bandon Resort had carts as long as we can keep them off the existing courses.  My fear is that political correctness will ruin things and force every course to be cart golf.  How horrible that would be.

[brad_miller]

How many able people don't walk on those airport "moving walkways"? Too many

[Tim Weiman]

Lou Duran:

I won't apologize for the way I treated those young kids.  To my mind, golf in America surely misses the grumpy old men I knew growing up.  Yes, they were miserable at times.  They treated young kids like second class citizens.  But, they were also the people who taught young kids how to move on a golf course and to be sensitive to others while playing.

Amidst all our political correctness, those lessons are not being taught to young people in America today.  That's really too bad, in my view.

Carts also undermine caddy programs, in my view, thereby depriving young kids of valuable learning experience.  Isn't it better that a "cart fee" get paid to a caddy instead and that young person learn to interact with adults.  Isn't that a healthy part of growing up?

I won't argue with you about the impact of carts on pace of play, but will state for the record my experience that people walking tend to play faster.  Especially on days where carts are restricted to the cart paths, it is a real pain to follow people in carts.

Finally, I'm not sure I buy into the logic that carts allow more people to play and, therefore, help the game.  By and large, the US population is able to walk and should walk, in my view.  Carts are part of the rising costs of playing golf and may do more to discourage playing than anything their utility provides.

Bottom line:  I think we Americans are just off base on this subject.  We could learn from our fellow golfers overseas.

[texsport]

Like carts or not, I think they are a major factor in allowing "modern golf architecture" to even exist. Having been involved in the justification and development of a couple of courses, I can assure you that without projected cart revenue, they would have never been built-it's an accountant's world out there.

Cart's allow building courses on land that was unsuitable during the classic era of golf architecture. On this site there are frequent discussions about ideal pieces of land for a great course. These ideal plots of land are usually far afield. It's fun to dream but courses, both great and mediocre, have to be close to people to survive (see Red Mike). How many affordable pieces of ideal, walkable land are available near major population centers? Carts actually make some spectacular course topography possible.

Cart revenue helps pay for the greenskeeper and pros, without whom most couses would be out of business. This is absolutely true for public golf courses. The first things cut when a course's revenue dries up are pros and greenskeeping budgets.


As to the condition of the game oversea- I recently read an article about starving golf pros in the British Isles. No cart revenue and diminishing pro shop equipment sales are the largest reasons.

If we're satisfied with the couses we have now, that's fine. However, I contend that few new quality courses would be built in the U.S .without cart revenue.

 I like the Japanese solution. Allow no carts but require the use of caddies. This keeps carts off the courses but generates revenue.

Texsport

[Matt_Ward]

What amazes me in this discussion is that you have some ideologues who view carts in a one dimensional manner -- to wit, they have no place period!

That's all very nice but the realioty is that the driving engine for many clubs around the country is the selling of land / homes and the use of the golf cart in maximizes the value of adjacent property when building the course. Again, the idelogue type will say "damn the houses and the innane routings and just build the golf course." Again, that would be nice but sometimes the financial numbers don't compute with that reasoning.

Yes, I'm a firm advocate in walking -- I think the rule at Bethpage Black that ALL players must walk is a great one. Ad, I commend many clubs (some of them public -- like Whistling Straits, to name just one) that also mandate "walking only" as a positive development. Kudos also to the many private clubs around the USA that actively promote walking through a caddy program.

But given the dearth of quality land in populated areas and all the attendant rules / regs of federal, state and local environmental groups it's amazing much golf gets built at all. Unfortunately, because of all the hoops that developers must jump to appease the real and sometimes unreal objections the
cost to play only increases.

I don't like to see players (especially young golfers) using carts -- especially on flat as pancake courses when they have the physical health to do so. I am a walker and have been since my dad introduced me to golf over 30 years ago. But, there are a number of people who simply tout the idealistic version of what golf should be and usually diss the realities the industry is facing today. Walking is making a comeback and many courses are using that element as part of their branding / marketing campaigns. I think that's great and more should do so.

However, when I review courses I don't hold it against any course if they mandate cart usage. My only issue would be if cart rides to nearly every hole require some sort of absurd trek that goes on and on. Given the nature of property available today and the encroachment on wetlands, endangered species and severe slopes, to name just three issues, the use of carts is a tool that will assist with future development and course construction.

When people talk about slow play you are really adding another issue unrelated to the question at hand. It's always been my belief that management at any facility are the ones responsible in keeping things moving. Having idiotic rules that forbid carts off the cart paths (par-3 holes an exception) is one such stupid rule because it simply drags play -- especially on land with severe slopes that require players to drag several clubs to each shot.

Mark, I don't know if the precise numbers of courses is 1/3 of the total as mentioned by TF, however, I do know it is possible for golf development to incorporate cart usage without fundamentally distorting the key elements that make golf such a grand game. More and more development, from what I see, is moving in this direction because they realize how poor planning can ultimately impact their specific project and ultimately their bottom line.

Hope this helps ...

[texsport]

I forgot one other point about  carts and architecture. In parts of the country like Texas, Arizona, Florida, etc. it's frequently near or over 100 degrees for 2-3 months during the summer. Nobody in his/her right mind walks 18 holes in 100 degree heat. (Take it from someone who has experienced severe cramping while attempting to walk 18 holes in summer tournaments in Texas-you are at a distinct disadvantage if you walk and others can ride.) Carts are a necessity for  course survival in these areas during summer. I much prefer playing golf in Minnesota during the summer.

Fazio's comments about a high percentage of courses being unplayable probably reflects weather conditions making walking unreasonable-not just the topography.

Please note that this is THE major reason that the U.S.Open and P.G.A. are rarely played in the deep south. We have the courses but the pros complain so much, these summer time events mostly avoid really hot areas. The LPGA actually was head quartered outside Houston, Texas for a while but moved because of unrelenting complaints by the ladies about the heat in the summer. There isn't even an LGPA tour event in Houston any more.

Which brings me to one of my favorite complaints. Golf Digest's awarding of course rating points to courses which have held major championships in the past. This is obvious B.S. on several fronts , but to my point, includes the fact that courses in the hot south and southwest have fewer opportunities to host such events. (I won't even get into the irrelevance of hickory era events in modern course ratings.)

Thank God the Tour Championship in the fall is frequently played at Champions in Houston.

 

[Tom Doak]

I don't mind golf carts so much as I hate cart paths.  Few of you have any idea just how much impact the routing of cart paths can have on the final form of a golf hole.  In certain circumstances, hiding the cart path will overwhelm the strategic interest of a hole, or even make it impossible to use an otherwise excellent green site.

It is not an accident that what are generally perceived as my two best courses are path-free.  And if you count the top 100 courses in the world, I'll wager very few of them have wall-to-wall paths, even in these days when it's a supposed "necessity."

Every time I sign up a project nowadays, I ask the client if we have to have cart paths.  There's a long list of excuses for them:  the course is too hilly for everyone to walk, the superintendent needs them or the maintenance traffic will wear out the turf, we need the revenue, or where will we put the coolers?

It's the clients who have the guts to ignore these arguments who have been rewarded.  And last time I checked, Pacific Dunes was somehow managing to turn a profit without cart paths!

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

Have you ever actually met an "ideologue" who views carts in one dimension?

To the contrary, I've never met any advocate of walking who lacked a clear understanding of the economic case for carts?

Shortly after Poppy Hills opened I played there with some well traveled golf buddies.  The only way we were allowed to walk was to offer not only to pay a cart fee but also a premium equivalent to the cost of joining the Northern California Golf Association.  Then, too, we had to agree to leave the course if, in the opinion of the ranger, we held anyone up.

Unfortunately, we were not able to negotiate for a rebate if we were held up by cart golf types (which we were)!

So, nobody views the issue in a one dimensional fashion, at least nobody I've ever met.  All the economic arguments advanced here have been well known for quite some time.

The problem with golf in America is not "ideologues", as you call them, but the fact that there are not enough such people.

Golf here would be far better if we had more of a European (and probably Australian) mentality.

Anyway, my club does sometimes enforce a carts on cart paths-only rule.  It is a judgment left to the superintendent and a good thing in my opinion.  Why should the course suffer when conditions aren't appropriate to let carts all over the place?  Why should walkers have to pay for the damage?

Texsport:

I'll confess.  While living in Southern California I used to go out to PGA West in the summer time and usually I did take a cart.  Convincing friends to do otherwise wasn't easy.  But, I did walk it one time and it wasn't bad even in 100 plus degree weather.  More important than riding was drinking lots of water.....every hole, even if you don't think you need it.  That also applies when you are riding, in my opnion.