[RJ_Daley]

Tom Doak, what is the cart path, or no cart path plan for Lubbock?  If there are cart paths, are they in key areas of tee entrance and egress with dispersal entrance and exit varied onto and off fairways?  Or, will you have defined paths off fairways all the way through the course.  Will walking be encouraged, or carts mandated?  I imagine Texsports comments about Texas style heat will be a serious factor.  Are operating revenue assumptions based on mandated carts, or a % of player usage expected?  If it is thought to be a competition college course, I assume the design considers the need to walk, even in the heat of Texas.  

I think we approach the development of golf courses in modern times as different in our assumptions of what is needed for cart rental revenue because our basic philosophy is commercial development and profit performance oriented.  That is a fact of life.  However, the great golf clubs of the past were approached for development in order to provide a members venue for healthy enjoyment of the game and walking was integral to those ideas, back in the day. Carts then were only a curiosity and not a primary factor to make assumptions about the revenue they could generate.   Only the rare few like Pacific Dunes, Whistling Straits and their small circle of similar niche modern development projects can take the walking only concept, with exception for accomodation for true disability cases.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim W:

The answer to your first question is "yes" I have met people --some very prominent types, who believe the cart has no place whatsover in golf no matter what situations exist today.

That's wonderful thinking  -- for a dinosaur!

I'm not an advocate of carts and I'll say this again in case you missed it on my first post -- I applaud those upscale clubs that promote walking exclusively and I salute private clubs (mainly in the Northeast and Midwest) that have substanial caddie programs.

In your example of Poppy Hills I find it appalling the facility extorted such conditions out of you and those with you. But let's not confine the issue to a solitary situation.

There are too many people, in my mind, who think of golf in just one manner -- one way -- you must walk and anything other than that is just not golf. That is silly. Carts aren't going away because they produce revenue and as I said previously are needed on sites where they "connect" distant holes to maximize real estate sales. Yes, it would be great if all new sites would be like the ones Donald Ross did where the tee is immediately adjacent to the last green you played and on you go. I wish that could be true for all development today but it's not the case. I only object to carts when these "connection" points are so extreme that you are doing more riding than playing.

As far as "cart paths only" rules they are clearly a key reason for slow play as players must carry "x" amount of clubs and then walk all the way back to the cart and on and on it goes. I've played courses where you can clearly "steer" carts in the proper direction and if the management takes a proactive position can have course personnel observe that this takes place in the event of a few yahoo types who decide to joyride all over the course. You say the issue is about protecting turf -- then those clubs should follow what you're advocating -- everybody walks.

Let's be clear Tim -- I never said carts speed up play. The issue on this particular thread is the role of carts in modern architecture. In a perfect world with perfect sites the cart would not be an issue. That doesn't happen today and given all the reasons, including severe or difficult sites, extreme heat and those with legitimate disabilities it's here to stay.

I'm glad many people prefer to walk and it's something I try to do whenever the opportunity arises but a more pragmatic position is clearly what's needed. Just my opinion ...

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

With all the healthy teenagers I see riding around in golf carts, even on basically flat courses, it's hard for me to imagine why we need a more "pragmatic position".

Aren't we already there?  Isn't just the opposite needed, i.e., more done to encourage walking?

I'm not sure why you suggest Poppy Hills is a solitary situation.  After all, there isn't a long list of courses recently opened which encourage walking, is there?

To my mind, we need to make a distinction between the golf industry and the game of golf.  The golf industry gains from the use of carts, while the "game", in my opinion, suffers.

As for golf architecture, it seems carts contribute to quantity, but I can't see how they have made a contribution to quality.

[texsport]

Tim Weiman
      Walking in desert 100 degree heat with 20% humidity is quite a different thing than walking in Texas 100 degree heat and 80% humidity.
      When I was younger, I always walked, and enjoyed playing because 100 degree heat  kept a lot of non-Texas natives off the courses and made securing tee times relatively easy to obtain in the middle of the day. These days, I don't want to play at mid day even with a cart.Seriously though, courses in very hot locals would never get the 60-70,000 rounds a year they now enjoy without carts.
      P.S. I notice that you only walked PGA West once.

Texsport
      

[Jeff_Brauer]

Texsport has a point about carts in Texas.  Last summer was a cool one, but after the two before that in DFW, play in mid day was way down.  Many courses are considering altering their greens fee structure to a higher twilight rate and noonish rates lower.  They hope this will attract play.  Concern over sun effects as well as the heat have seemed to affect play here in Texas.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
It is the same in Ga.  mid day play stays down and yes carts help.
I was at a NGCOA conference once and we were told that Northern golf was more profitable for that reason...HEAT...  Summer season equal longer days...more rounds...then close in winter with no overhead.....South equals hot days during the longest days and less rounds...then open in winter to the tune of 10 players somedays.....and Fla....even worse...have to maintain all year....
I think the day will come when the golf car companies will have a car or tire that will eliminate much of the car path especially in fairways.  I know that at one time Yahmaha was looking at a tire that was split in 3 sections and rotated in opposite directions to help eliminate turf wear in turns.

[A_Clay_Man]

If they even consider a marriage amendment to the constitution... I think shivas's idea is more deserving of an amendment.
With one exception that cart fees for those with verifiable medical limitations remain low.
Don't stop at $60 either, jack it up as high as needed inorder to stop the laziness and improve pace.

Write you congressman and support the "cart jacking". I know the AMA will be with us on this issue as doctors should see a significant increase in office visits from males 20-60.

[Tim Weiman]

Adam Clayman:

I share your view that Shivas has a good idea, but I don't know about visits to the doctor's office and support from the AMA.

Don't you think more walking would lead to a more healthy population?

Maybe we should get Hillary Clinton to introduce legislation banning golf carts in the United States.....even for former Presidents.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tim

The doctors visits will be for the letter that will varify the condition that justify a cart.

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