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PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
So based on Paul T.’s recommendation and neat picture thread this past week, I decided to make the five and a half hour drive from Chicago to French Lick, Indiana this past weekend in order to see both the recently renovated Donald Ross Course (formerly the Hill Course) and the brand new Pete Dye Course.

The drive down yesterday morning really wasn’t too bad considering it is pretty much a straight shot down I-65 and US-37. I left yesterday morning at 5am Chicago time and, with a much needed pit stop in Bloomington for a campus Penn Station sub and boardwalk fries ☺, arrived at the Ross Course by 1:10 and was on the first tee at 1:30.

While I didn’t bring a camera to the Ross Course as it is well documented with pictures on this site, I wish I had just in order to take pictures of the 18 greens and they are out of this world good. The course has a certain “country” feel to it as the course has wide open vistas, fairways that follow the nature shape of the land, random bunkering, and 18 fantastic green sites. While the course was not exactly playing F&F (the course received 2” of rain that morning), I decided to play the Gold Tees at +/- 7000 yards. What really makes the course is the totally world class set of greens, which in many ways I enjoyed more than the greens at Pinehurst #2 (!!!). The greens just make the course so much FUN and they literally blew my mind. After making the trip to see Lost Dunes about three weeks ago and seeing greens that felt as visually extreme as I have ever seen, I can honestly say that the greens at French Lick are more difficult and, while not visually as extreme, are just as interesting as there are no two alike on the entire course. I was shocked on the longest par-3s of well over 200 yards that the greens were far more severe than any modern GCA would ever design on a hole of similar length today. While the 8th Green gets much of the attention on here for its severity, I felt the 17th was by far the most difficult after (the pin was up top on the right) pulling my wedge a little left and watched it roll 30 feet down the slope left, concluding in my first FOUR putt in 10 years! I ended up playing in about 3.5 hours walking and never felt overly rushed at any point of the course. I thought the course was a joy to play and I wish I had another crack at the course as that there was some local knowledge that I could of used off the tee and around the greens. Despite all that I shot a solid 77.

That night I had dinner in Hagen’s in the Ross Clubhouse (Glenn the Asst. Pro made the great recommendation of Ribs and a Red Hook beer), and ended up staying at the west baden hotel and couldn’t get over the super cool free standing dome and the history of the hotel. You can’t beat drinking $3 “premium” Goose Island beers while watching the ceiling of the dome at dusk.



The next morning it was off to the Dye Course for a morning tee time. The course is only a short drive from the west baden hotel. After two right turns, you proceed to drive straight up a tree-lined hill that feels like a ski slope. You come across a locked gate that the only way to access is with an advance tee time. Once through the gate the first thing you realize is that 1) you are on a mountain, and 2) pictures really do not do the course and views justice…they are spectacular. You end up pulling up to a mansion at the highest point on the property and using a parking lot that is comprised of about 30 spots in between some trees. The Pro Shop is the converted carriage house and small. When I made a comment that it was very cool that a big brawny course has a low key and small Pro Shop operation the Asst. Pro was quick to mention that they are planning on building a huge clubhouse next to the range that would grant the logistics needed in order to “host the kind of tournaments we want.”

The first thing that you notice about the course is that while on a HUGE scale, the course’s fairways and greens are very tiny. My caddy told me that the widest point on any fairway on any hole is 29 yards, many times with the world ending on one side. The greens are also very small and for the first time I found a smaller par-4 green than the 4th at TCC. I was shocked that Dye decided to make the greens so small on some of the longer 450+ yard par-4’s, as in some solid wind the greens are next to impossible to hit with a long iron. Due to this, almost any player is going to miss a ton of greens, and the very interesting green complexes make for some tough but fun up and downs.

I decided to play the black tees at about 7200 yards +/-, and it felt every inch that long. When I teed off at 8am there was little or no wind and my score showed such with a well deserved 40 on the front nine with a dumb double bogey on the par-5 7th after hitting my tee shot off the end of the world. The wind is really a fantastic asset at the Pete Dye Course that isn’t always present at the somewhat nearby Whistling Straits.

My favorite string of holes were probably 11-15, which was followed by what I think the is the only weakness of the course, the finishing 16-17-and 18th holes. #18 is not a bad hole, however it ends up feeling like a bad version of the 3rd. Apparently the first 16 holes have been open for a long time, but Alice and Pete didn’t like how the 17th and 18th turned out and they decided to start over again, hence delaying the full opening of the course.

The common theme from everyone from the caddy to the professional staff is that they expect to be considered a possibility for future majors, despite being in between the PGA-Owned Valhalla and Crooked Stick. A member of the Staff at the Ross Course mentioned that they would be “tickled” if the Dye Course gets an average of 20 (!!!) rounds a day. I was one of 5 people on the entire tee sheet on a sunny Sunday in May.

Overall French Creek is a fantastic option for a day or two driving trip to see the Ross and Dye courses as they make a wonderful one – two punch that holds its own against any two resort/publics in the Midwest.

Some pictures of the Dye Course to follow…

H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 10:19:06 PM »
I tried my best to take some photos from some different angles than Paul last week.

Below is the approch to #1, a straight downhill par-4 of 440 yards. There is water on the left but it really doesn't come into play unless you really hook one hard. The green acutally looks big from the fairway. After a good drive downhill I only had an 8-iron in.


From behind the first green, which gives you an idea of how small the greens are at French Lick;


This was the highly discussed #2 from last week with its volcano bunkers, which in person takes a somewhat plain part of the property and makes it an interesting hole. This photo is from behind the green, showing the bunkers from behind. I ended up having a blind shot into the green as I took the safe route off the tee and was behind a volcano bunker.


#3, a very long and brutal par-5, it took a Driver, 2-iron, 6 iron into the wind to hit the front fringe!, they were still cutting down huge trees in the ravine to the left of the fairway, which is gigantic and not shown well in pictures.


From behind the cliff hanger #3 green. My caddy said that the week before players tried to take a cart down there after a rain and got it stuck, they had to change out carts and leave the stranded one there until the ground dried.


The following is the very nice par-3 4th, which could be mistaken for a Pete Dye redan, trouble left, kickboard on the right. The course was soft, and my attempt to hook a 3-iron onto the green didn't work all to well as the ball plugged in the front fringe.



« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 10:11:51 PM by Pat Craig »
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2009, 10:30:55 PM »
This is the somewhat short par-4 5th, which was only a driver and a wedge, and probably the widest fairway on the course. Blind second shot up the hill towards the mansion clubhouse.


The down hill par-4 6th,


With nothing at all behind the green. My caddy had met a fellow GCAer a couple weeks prior and he schooled him in the art of "skyline" greens. Good to see we are educating everywhere.


The very good par-3 8th, with the wind starting to pick up hard right to left, I had to start my ball a good 30 yards right of the green, and still watched it head down towards the left greenside bunker. Made an all world up-and-down to make a par.


This is the par-4 9th which brings you back up to the highest point of the property and into the wind.


The par-4 10th which heads back down the hill and for more scenic views;


The very very cool blind tee shot on #11 which you can actually take over the right hill and still be somewhat safe. Despite being a little over 400 yards I still needed a driver and 4 iron to the front part of the green. One hole that requires a second play.


The second shot on the par-4 12th, with skyline views, and a view overlooking the whole town.


The very good par-3 13th, the green looks small with its false front but a backstop back right that can kick balls back left or back to the front.


The false front on 13, with my weak 6-iron tee ball sitting short.


This is the super cool split fairway par-5 of about 500 yards, being dead downwind, it was only a mediocre drive and 3 iron required to get to the front fringe, which left me a very tough pitch shot to a front pin.


From behind 14 looking back on the back nine.


The tiny tiny par-4 15th green. One of the best holes on the course as it is a very fun second shot.


The very long par-3 16th. From my tees it played 190ish, to a very small green. This hole plays very similar to the 17th at Kiawah Ocean...but longer, the tips being 300 yards!!!. I did head back for fun after my tee shot to see if I could hit the green with my driver. Nope...water.


The 18th tee shot, a similar hole as the 3rd, with a huge natural amputheatre directly behind the green, and a huge ravine short. The green is shaped alot like a "?"













« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 10:21:15 PM by Pat Craig »
H.P.S.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2009, 10:33:34 PM »
Pat,

Great review and thanks for the pics.

In your opinion - at what handicap or skill level does the Dye course become too difficult (if played from the appropriate tees)?

Seems like with fairways and greens that small - it could be a long day for some people.

If you had 10 rounds - how many would you play at the Ross and how many at the Dye?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 08:06:57 AM »
Pat,

Great review and thanks for the pics.

In your opinion - at what handicap or skill level does the Dye course become too difficult (if played from the appropriate tees)?

Seems like with fairways and greens that small - it could be a long day for some people.

If you had 10 rounds - how many would you play at the Ross and how many at the Dye?

Great question on the split of Ross Course to Dye. I would say that the Dye Course is better...the views and experience are out of this world, with its own great set of greens, as well as playing as more of a "links" course than WS in many places. However the Ross Course is so much FUN! With cost as no option, I would say the Dye Course 7 out of 10 times. However the more realistic scenario would be on a weekend golf trip, much like I did with cost factored in. In that case, 36 on the Ross course on Saturday, and 18 Sunday morning on the Dye Course would leave you a very happy golfer.

Your point on the tees is very valid. You have to be 100% on your game hitting very good shots as one bad swing and you will make a double. In many ways I wish I had another round in order to play the tees one up from the Blacks, as to have more 3-woods and shorter irons into some of the smaller fairways and greens, which would of been more fair. However, even with a long string of bogeys on the back into the wind I managed a 81 from the 7200 yard tees, which I felt pretty good with. They do have handicap guidelines listed on their scorecard, however according to them, my 3.0 handicap could of been on the 8100 yard tees! eek.

As I said before, I couldn't imagine this course filled up like WS gets in its high season in Wisconsin. The Dye Course at French Lick is far harder and penil, and a full course of tourists would make for 6-7 hour rounds easy. Apparently today they have an outing of 80 people for some company, hopefully everyone plays the right set of tees.
H.P.S.

Jamie Barber

Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 08:20:59 AM »
8100 yds! I'm waiting for the punchline  ;D

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2009, 08:52:37 AM »
8100 yds! I'm waiting for the punchline  ;D

Jamie-

The punchline is that they still have a ton of room to expand the course further back! On some tees they could go another 50-100 yards back.

In all honesty this may be the best insurance policy to be able to be considered for majors way into the future, many courses just don't have the room anymore. I haven't been there yet, but it seems Erin Hills is the same way.
H.P.S.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2009, 10:04:27 AM »
Any way to make your pictures larger? They are so small on my screen.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2009, 10:25:28 AM »
Any way to make your pictures larger? They are so small on my screen.

That's a good question. This is my first time posting pictures on GCA.

Does anyone else know?
H.P.S.

Jamie Barber

Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2009, 02:34:23 PM »
The course looks great (if a little too perfectly manicured for my liking) ... but >8100 yds with room to expand!!! If the USGA thinks that's the future then I think we have the wrong people in charge.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2009, 02:42:44 PM »
Any way to make your pictures larger? They are so small on my screen.

That's a good question. This is my first time posting pictures on GCA.

Does anyone else know?

I think it has to do with the pics you uploaded onto your photobucket. I went on your photobucket and your pics are only like 18kb. That's really small! Did you take these pics with your phone or something?
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2009, 02:50:55 PM »
Great review.

I'm at the resort in a couple weeks with a bunch of college fraternity brothers.  Given our age and probable night time activities, we collectively decided to stick to the Ross course.  No one wanted to tackled Dye on Roids after consectutive nights of bourbon and beers.

So, thanks for your thorough review.

Plus, I'm looking forward to playing the Ross course, regardless of the new track.  (With a quick stop at Victoria Nat'l on the way up).

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2009, 03:15:09 PM »
Any way to make your pictures larger? They are so small on my screen.

That's a good question. This is my first time posting pictures on GCA.

Does anyone else know?

I think it has to do with the pics you uploaded onto your photobucket. I went on your photobucket and your pics are only like 18kb. That's really small! Did you take these pics with your phone or something?

No I took them on a camera...and they were bigger on my own computer. I can't get on photobucket here at work, so I will go on later at home and see if I can't fix it.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2009, 03:16:53 PM »
The course looks great (if a little too perfectly manicured for my liking) ... but >8100 yds with room to expand!!! If the USGA thinks that's the future then I think we have the wrong people in charge.

There were more people on the course working on the conditioning of it on a Sunday than there were actual players!
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2009, 03:18:21 PM »
Great review.

I'm at the resort in a couple weeks with a bunch of college fraternity brothers.  Given our age and probable night time activities, we collectively decided to stick to the Ross course.  No one wanted to tackled Dye on Roids after consectutive nights of bourbon and beers.

So, thanks for your thorough review.

Plus, I'm looking forward to playing the Ross course, regardless of the new track.  (With a quick stop at Victoria Nat'l on the way up).

Nick-

You and your buddies are going to love the Ross Course. I don't want you to think it is a lesser course just because I didn't take pictures of it, I just happened to leave my camera in my car on accident. I wish I had taken 18 pictures of the greens alone!
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2009, 10:24:02 PM »
Ok I figured out how to make the pictures bigger. Let me know what you think guys!
H.P.S.

Jamie Barber

Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 04:15:05 AM »
There were more people on the course working on the conditioning of it on a Sunday than there were actual players!

From the 9th photo posted it looks like you could play quite a reasonable game of snooker off that surface!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2009, 07:27:38 AM »
There were more people on the course working on the conditioning of it on a Sunday than there were actual players!

From the 9th photo posted it looks like you could play quite a reasonable game of snooker off that surface!

With so little play so far on the course, it really was rare to find another divot in the fairways or a pitchmark on any of the greens. It's amazing how well greens can putt if no body walks on them  ;)
H.P.S.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 07:30:17 AM »
The new Dye course looks AMAZING. Only 20 rounds per day? I better start saving some expendable income to play it !
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 12:48:35 PM »
Another interesting blog post on the financial state of French Lick Resort and neighborhood with regards to the $350 price tag.

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/blogs/mattyg/2009/05/french-licked.html
H.P.S.

Andy Troeger

Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2009, 10:17:46 PM »
Played both the Ross and Dye Courses last week along with Valhalla and Victoria National. Will keep this to the French Lick courses for the most part...

First off, I don't see French Lick getting a major. It's just too dang hard to get to and even with the two big hotels I can't see there being enough lodging within 2 hours to have a huge event like that. Plus, the PGA owns Valhalla and will use that instead. Plus, Valhalla is a better golf course and so are Victoria National, Crooked Stick, and Wolf Run.

Having played the Ross Course quite a few times in the mid-90's I was really impressed by the changes. The routing really hasn't changed other than some lengthening and an angle change to add some length to the long par five 15th. The par threes are still brutal. The greens were more interesting than I rememebered and the added bunkering really adds aesthetically in addition to adding a bit more challenge. It has a classic feel that I haven't experienced all that often and now belongs in the top 50 public courses in the country give or take (IMO of course!). I've recommended Sultan's Run over the Ross Course in the past and as much as I love Sultan's Run I might change my vote now. Better yet--go play them both!

The Dye Course is set in a spectacular location, although the best views are from the mansion and clubhouse on top of the hill. The views from the course aren't shabby either. Unfortunately, I think the fairways are WAY too narrow to be much fun even from the shorter distances. To answer Rob's question, I would think anyone over about a 15 hcp would get worked over by this course unless they are able to bunt it down the fairway successfully--there are very few (if any) forced carries. Additionally, the course is really manufactured looking despite the beautiful site. I think some of that was necessary to deal with the steep hills, but there are many narrow fairways with steep (and sometimes huge) dropoffs that really look odd in person especially when there's a minefield of bunkers in play too.

With all that said, there are many positives too and I was left with mixed feelings about the course as a whole. Its a beautiful place and there is a certain randomness when you miss the fairways. Some balls that miss the fairway by a few feet are dead while other times a really poor shot can be in a flat lie in the rough. The rough isn't much of an issue when the lie is flat, its the slope that matters. The greens are interesting and varied--the 18th is as big as 4-5 of the other greens combined. The use of angles is there as with other Pete Dye courses--you have to be really exact to hit those fairways and the penalty for missing or getting greedy can be severe. While the tips stretch to 8,100 yards, its also designed to be played from normal yardages. Its a big dramatic course on a big dramatic piece of property. It will challenge any level of player--you could set this course up harder than any place I've ever seen.

Having played both courses, if given ten more rounds with cost being no issue I'd play Ross 7 and Dye 3.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 09:37:48 AM »
Played both the Ross and Dye Courses last week along with Valhalla and Victoria National. Will keep this to the French Lick courses for the most part...

First off, I don't see French Lick getting a major. It's just too dang hard to get to and even with the two big hotels I can't see there being enough lodging within 2 hours to have a huge event like that. Plus, the PGA owns Valhalla and will use that instead. Plus, Valhalla is a better golf course and so are Victoria National, Crooked Stick, and Wolf Run.

I agree that it will be a tough sell for FL-Dye to get a major as long as Valhalla and Crooked Stick are in the picture. Valhalla and FL are so close that the European wives actually stayed in the West Baden Hotel during the Ryder Cup last fall.

Having played the Ross Course quite a few times in the mid-90's I was really impressed by the changes. The routing really hasn't changed other than some lengthening and an angle change to add some length to the long par five 15th. The par threes are still brutal. The greens were more interesting than I rememebered and the added bunkering really adds aesthetically in addition to adding a bit more challenge. It has a classic feel that I haven't experienced all that often and now belongs in the top 50 public courses in the country give or take (IMO of course!). I've recommended Sultan's Run over the Ross Course in the past and as much as I love Sultan's Run I might change my vote now. Better yet--go play them both!

I really liked the Ross course, and having now played it once without really knowing where to hit it, I wish I had another crack at it. The greens alone make the course a special place IMO. I really don't think your "Top-50 public" rank is too far off.

The Dye Course is set in a spectacular location, although the best views are from the mansion and clubhouse on top of the hill. The views from the course aren't shabby either. Unfortunately, I think the fairways are WAY too narrow to be much fun even from the shorter distances. To answer Rob's question, I would think anyone over about a 15 hcp would get worked over by this course unless they are able to bunt it down the fairway successfully--there are very few (if any) forced carries. Additionally, the course is really manufactured looking despite the beautiful site. I think some of that was necessary to deal with the steep hills, but there are many narrow fairways with steep (and sometimes huge) dropoffs that really look odd in person especially when there's a minefield of bunkers in play too.

I agree that while the site is special, it also has its limitations with being on such a steep hill. They told me that when Pete Dye first saw the site, he turned the job down because it was too severe. Considering the earth that needed to be moved to make the course work, I thought it looked somewhat "natural." I agree that the fairways are narrow, but did you really get the sense that Pete was designing for the average golfer?

With all that said, there are many positives too and I was left with mixed feelings about the course as a whole. Its a beautiful place and there is a certain randomness when you miss the fairways. Some balls that miss the fairway by a few feet are dead while other times a really poor shot can be in a flat lie in the rough. The rough isn't much of an issue when the lie is flat, its the slope that matters. The greens are interesting and varied--the 18th is as big as 4-5 of the other greens combined. The use of angles is there as with other Pete Dye courses--you have to be really exact to hit those fairways and the penalty for missing or getting greedy can be severe. While the tips stretch to 8,100 yards, its also designed to be played from normal yardages. Its a big dramatic course on a big dramatic piece of property. It will challenge any level of player--you could set this course up harder than any place I've ever seen.

Having played both courses, if given ten more rounds with cost being no issue I'd play Ross 7 and Dye 3.

That's an interesting ratio...after a few weeks digestion I think mine would be closer to 5 and 5.
H.P.S.

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 01:10:23 PM »
After reading the links about the $350 price tag for the dye, I had to call the resort myself to see if this was true.  Sure enough....it was $350.

I asked the girl how many rounds she had booked today at $350 and she said....zero. 

$350!?!?!?!?!?

Andy Troeger

Re: My Weekend Trip to French Lick (w/ pictures of the Dye Course)
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 02:13:14 PM »
Pat,
Its not a course for the average golfer, but who else is going to play it? I guess they have the Club Pro PGA Championship next year, but I still find it hard to believe they will get a major event. And even then, given the angles and narrowness even pros won't hit those fairways regularly, especially if the wind blows.

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