[Brad Wilbur]

After a long time lurking on the site, I am grateful to join.  I'm a 53 year old dentist in Henderson, Nevada that enjoys playing whenever possible. I thought when my wife began playing 9 years ago, my costs would go up.  However I forgot to factor in the M/GF ratio (She spent more money at the mall than what the green fees were).

We will be in Tahoe this summer, and was wondering if anyone had seen the Crenshaw-Coore course Clear Creek.  The Trails was under construction when we were at Bandon, so I've not sampled their work, but their web site hasn't changed, and info is limited.

[PThomas]

However I forgot to factor in the M/GF ratio (She spent more money at the mall than what the green fees were).

Brad , welcome....the above tells me you got some smarts !

[Joel_Stewart]

Theres been some initial discussion here but since nobody has played it no details.   If you use the search function you'll see some discussion.

A few of us have played Martis Camp and I posted quite a few pictures about it.   All in all here is some good new golf up there (and some bad) but the economy may dictate who stays open and who doesn't.

[Matt Varney]

Brad,

Clear Creek Tahoe is completed and will be opening June - July this summer.

I have seen many pictures and its impressive with the holes rolling nicely among all the tall trees, bunkers and mountain views.

Its private but, you should at least make contact with the developers to see if you could see it during your trip to Tahoe.

Good Luck!

[Joel_Stewart]

I played it yesterday and its fantastic.  Lays on the ground perfectly, very natural looking.  

My biggest surprise was it is built in very sandy soil, something very different then all other courses in Lake Tahoe which are built in rock.  There is a nice mixture of sandy waste areas, natural rock out croppings, lacey edge bunkers all framed by Pine trees.  There are no adjoining fairways.  It plays uphill, downhill, right, left, short and long.  As I told someone else, its perfectly built which is what you expect from C&C.  

Kudos to Landscapes unlimited as well.

Below is the short par 3 17th hole.  It plays to the east, downwind.



The hard par 3 4th hole.  It plays west, into the wind.  Hit it right and you'll make double bogey, which I speak from experience.

[Jim Franklin]

Joel -

How does it compare to Martis Camp?

[Peter_Herreid]

Martis Camp is impeccably maintained and a fine golf course in its own right, but (in my opinion) there is a fair amount of "station-to-station" golf and fairly well-defined preferred playing lines on most, if not every, holes at Martis Camp.

There are considerably more options to be found at Clear Creek for playing different holes in different ways, depending on ball flights, wind directions, etc.

At this point in their evolutions, Martis Camp is ahead of CCT in conditioning and amenities...

CCT has an "untraditional" course structure with an asymmetric lay-out of Par 70 (34-36) with 5 par 3's and 3 par 5's

CCT has less "eye candy" than Martis Camp, but even Martis Camp is admirably contained in that regard, as both courses let the imposing surrounding mountain peaks and vistas speak for themselves.

Each have impressive practice areas where one would just wish to linger and enjoy the surroundings.

Overall, I preferred the shot values and more rugged appeal of CCT, but I can easily see someone preferring the polish and panache of Martis Camp...My father-in-law certainly did!

[Joel_Stewart]

Peter, well said.  Its like comparing Pine Valley and Augusta.

If given 10 rounds, how would you split them up?   I'm happy at 5 and 5 but if my handicap went over 10, I probably would play more at Clear Creek.

[Peter_Herreid]

Being somewhat more comfortable in the rough and tumble unrefined east slopes of the Carson-Tahoe basin, as opposed to the fancy playgrounds of the rich and famous in Truckee-Incline Village and north and west slopes of Lake Tahoe, CCT immediately resonated with my sensibilities and I would lean more toward 6-4 CCT-Martis, or maybe 7-3...

On existing golf grounds right now in August 2009, I think 5-5 is a very fair split, however...

[Jed Peters]

Peter:

Where are you located?

The family has a place in Gardnerville Ranchos that I spend quite a bit of time at....

Jed

[Jim Franklin]

Peter and Joel -

Thanks for the input. Lake Tahoe sounds like an intriguing vacation spot for 2010.

[Joel_Stewart]

Lake Tahoe has emerged as a golf destination just in the last 10 years.  I'm sure somebody has the correct figures but there have been around 10 pretty good golf courses built here in this time period.  Just in the last few years you have,

Clear Creek - Coore & Crenshaw - 2009
Martis Camp - Fazio - 2008
Timilick - Harbottle- 2008
Grays Crossing - Hardy - 2007
Old Greenwood  - Nicklaus- 2005
Coyote Moon - Bell - 2004?
Add in a good remodel that Kyle Phillips did to Incline Village in 2004-05 and you have a pretty good selection of courses for a short season, summer area.

The lake is pretty nice as well.

[Jim Franklin]

Joel -

Have you been to Coeur d'Alene? Just wondering how Martis compared to Gozzer Ranch.

Thanks.

[Joel_Stewart]

Have you been to Coeur d'Alene? Just wondering how Martis compared to Gozzer Ranch.

I haven't played Gozzer but Fazio's assistant Scott Hoffman was his on site person for both Gozzer and Martis Camp.

I'm going to talk to Ran about doing an interview with Hoffman since he seems to be a real up and comer.  He started out as a superintendent and worked himself up which is maybe why Gozzer and Martis Camp are so well conditioned?

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks Joel, Gozzer Ranch was a real surprise so I look forward to seeing Martis Camp. Not to threadjack, so I think Clear Creek looks like a winner too.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm not sure its fair to compare since they are both great on their own, but below is a par 3 on each course.

You can see one is a little tighter then the other.

Martis Camp



Clear Creek - 4th hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

I completely concur with you on the merits of the Lake Tahoe area.

A good bud from my college days lives in Carson City and I try to visit as much as time allows.

Interesting to note -- that the placs that are quite seasonal and short -- like Lake Tahoe and the Flagstaff area, to name a quick two, really have the better side of things on the private side of clubs from a national perspective. I played both Coyote Moon and Old Greenwood and they are indeed worth playing. Is either worthy of national acclaim? I'd say they'd both miss out if I had to include a top 100 modern public listing.

Joel, can you give some sort of outline on the nature of the green contours of Clear Creek -- does C&C provide a new wrinkle on what they provide. Frankly, after the likes of Friar's Head and Sand Hills I think they have sort of coasted along -- although proponents will quickly highlight the likes of Bandon Trails (which I like save for the middle holes) and Hidden Creek, to name just two.

Be curious to also know what is the tip tee length at both Martis Camp and Clear Creek.

Many thanks ... the pics you have provided look great.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel, can you give some sort of outline on the nature of the green contours of Clear Creek -- does C&C provide a new wrinkle on what they provide. Frankly, after the likes of Friar's Head and Sand Hills I think they have sort of coasted along -- although proponents will quickly highlight the likes of Bandon Trails (which I like save for the middle holes) and Hidden Creek, to name just two.

The "Potato chip" term used by Crenshaw is alive and well at Clear Creek.  The greens are brilliant but not over the top.  There isn't anything like the 7th at Friars Head or 5th at Bandon Trails but every green has brilliant movement and slope.   As you would expect from a C&C course, every aspect has been thought out in terms of the proper approch and the proper putt from every possible angle.

I was told that Bill Coore personally finished every green with a sand pro. 

Yardage at Clear Creek
3266 - 3602 = 6868 Black
3031 - 3426 = 6457 Blue

Below is the 9th hole, a good par 4.

[Emil Weber]

Is the course public?

[Jim Franklin]

Is the course public?

No.

[Andy Troeger]

Yardage at Clear Creek
3266 - 3602 = 6868 Black
3031 - 3426 = 6457 Blue

Joel (or anyone),
What's the elevation at Tahoe? That could play really short with firm conditions and high elevation? That would be perfect for me but I'm usually the guy campaigning not to play the tips.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel, et al:

Like the sweeping nature of the terrain -- is there much elevation change throughout the property.

The tip tee length does raise some concerns that a strong player can overpower the course. Is that a fair
appraisal or one that completely misses out what else is offered by the layout?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

A fairly good discussion on two courses and Matt goes and asks for the "distance from the tips."  Who cares?

Actually I was surprised that the altitude didn't care my ball that much farther.

I too have played both courses.  The greens are far superior at Clear Creek, as you might expect.  The greens at Martis Camp are not easy to putt and I fear a typical country club type member may have difficulty.  There are rumors that they have softened two or are going to soften them.
I have also been told that Fazio did the routing at Clear Creek, left to go do Martis Camp and thus Coore was left with an approved routing and they didn't want to go through the process of new approvals.  And with sloppy phrasing when I say Fazio I mean his associate who I read here is Scott Hoffman.  The routing feels the same at both courses.
This is a "safe" C&C course,  the little par 3 17th being the most unique and fun hole.  I never saw the finished product on the practice area at Friar's Head, but both these Tahoe courses have as good a practice area as you will ever need.
Brad Wilbur, if you read this, IM me.

[Matt_Ward]

Lynn:

Let me help your understanding of what I asked.

I simply wanted to know if a 6,868 tip tee yardage figure is able to handle those who are strong low handicap type players. Given the high altitude it's a fair question.

Forgive me if my question doesn't fit into your personal sensibilities.

One other question if you care to answer -- what did you mean when you say Clear Creek is a "safe" C&C course?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Actually I have to give you credit for me thinking of the "safe" factor.  That aren't really any holes, where you say, "I would have to play that again to determine if I understand or like that hole."  Save for the little 17th, which is the only real quirk out there, it is a pretty straightforward looking place.

As for distance, I played with Scott Erickson, former baseball pitcher, and I doubt any course would challenge him much on length.  He is 300 plus off the tee.  He was hitting mid to high irons into par 5's.  That is the problem with today's game, a guy like Erickson benefits from the equipment far more than the average dub, thus you cannot build a course today that works for both Erickson and the 15 handicapper.  With that if is my opinion that courses should be built for 98% of us, and the Ericksons' many times will have to play irons off the tees.

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