[Rick Sides]

Recently I met a man from Ireland who asked me about American golf clubs and how he could play them.  I explained that a lot of the courses he asked about were private.  He told me that most of the major courses in Europe also have private memberships, but anyone could play them for a hefty fee.  Given the current US economic state, do you think the time will come when some of the big name private clubs will allow play but for a hefty fee to the public?

[Paul Jones]

Rick,

I would guess that the ones most people want to play: Augusta, Shinnecock, Cypress, Seminole, etc... would close before they would allow Public access.  I am sure there are courses in the Top 100 that reciporcate with other private clubs.

FYI... I heard English Turn in New Orleans now allows outside play.  That was one of the more private clubs in the state of Louisiana.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

A better response would have been to suggest that your acquaintance write a letter stating that he  is an avid golfer visiting from Ireland and would like the opportunity to play the course with a member and would gladly pay the appropriate fee. Better yet, if he is a member of a club in Ireland, suggest that his pro write a letter of introduction to the clubs.

The "big name private clubs" will never allow public access. They are immune from the "current economic state" for the most part. Some lower tier clubs are discreetly allowing public access on the "member for a day" program but bear in mind the tax implications of a private club allowing too much non-member play.

I recently heard of a club in the Philadelphia area allowing play channeled from a public course that was booked for an outing and closed for the day.

[Jack_Marr]

I don't think there's a single course in Ireland that the public cannot pay to play.

[Josh Stevens]

Not sure about Europe but certainly the UK, and its old colonies such as Australia.  It is not a requirement but it is certainly very much socially expected that all clubs welcome visitors.  There are probably half a dozen that don't, but they are very much regarded as nouveau riche wannabees and so very much sneered at.

[Mark Pearce]

Not sure about Europe but certainly the UK, and its old colonies such as Australia.  It is not a requirement but it is certainly very much socially expected that all clubs welcome visitors.  There are probably half a dozen that don't, but they are very much regarded as nouveau riche wannabees and so very much sneered at.

Broadly true.  However, Swinley Forest doesn't take visitors as a rule (though anyone keen enough can find a way to get a game) and is certainly not nouveau anything and I cannot imagine anyone snearing at it.

[Emil Weber]

Yesterday I read this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33543.0.html

What amazed me was that many GCAers said that you could get on private clubs if you write a nice letter to the club.
Still, I would prefer the UK/Europe system which allows public access an almost all courses. But can a club like Wentworth or Birkdale really be called a public course if 80% of the people people can't pay the price?

[Niall C]

Yesterday I read this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33543.0.html

What amazed me was that many GCAers said that you could get on private clubs if you write a nice letter to the club.
Still, I would prefer the UK/Europe system which allows public access an almost all courses. But can a club like Wentworth or Birkdale really be called a public course if 80% of the people people can't pay the price?

Emil,

Can't speak for the whole of europe but in terms of Scotland (the rest of the UK and Ireland would probably be similiar) the majority of clubs are private members clubs. Generally speaking you can get to play them either by booking through there pro shop or with the club secretary. Cartain restrictions will apply such as visitor bookings only allowed at certain times during the week, visitors to have an appropriate handicap which may be asked for on the day although very rarely are you actually asked for it, and that you are asked to follow the club rules on dress and behaviour. All fairly standard. All this can usually be organised with a simple phone call although depending on the club, Muirfield being an obvious example, you may have to write and may have to provide a letter from your own club secretary.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Yesterday I read this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33543.0.html

What amazed me was that many GCAers said that you could get on private clubs if you write a nice letter to the club.
Still, I would prefer the UK/Europe system which allows public access an almost all courses. But can a club like Wentworth or Birkdale really be called a public course if 80% of the people people can't pay the price?

Emil,

Can't speak for the whole of europe but in terms of Scotland (the rest of the UK and Ireland would probably be similiar) the majority of clubs are private members clubs. Generally speaking you can get to play them either by booking through there pro shop or with the club secretary. Cartain restrictions will apply such as visitor bookings only allowed at certain times during the week, visitors to have an appropriate handicap which may be asked for on the day although very rarely are you actually asked for it, and that you are asked to follow the club rules on dress and behaviour. All fairly standard. All this can usually be organised with a simple phone call although depending on the club, Muirfield being an obvious example, you may have to write and may have to provide a letter from your own club secretary.

Niall

Niall,

No letter required for Muirfield, you can book it over the internet.

[Emil Weber]

Yesterday I read this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33543.0.html

What amazed me was that many GCAers said that you could get on private clubs if you write a nice letter to the club.
Still, I would prefer the UK/Europe system which allows public access an almost all courses. But can a club like Wentworth or Birkdale really be called a public course if 80% of the people people can't pay the price?

Emil,

Can't speak for the whole of europe but in terms of Scotland (the rest of the UK and Ireland would probably be similiar) the majority of clubs are private members clubs. Generally speaking you can get to play them either by booking through there pro shop or with the club secretary. Cartain restrictions will apply such as visitor bookings only allowed at certain times during the week, visitors to have an appropriate handicap which may be asked for on the day although very rarely are you actually asked for it, and that you are asked to follow the club rules on dress and behaviour. All fairly standard. All this can usually be organised with a simple phone call although depending on the club, Muirfield being an obvious example, you may have to write and may have to provide a letter from your own club secretary.

Niall

Niall,

by 'writing a nice letter to the clubs in order to play' I meant the US private clubs. Sorry for that misunderstanding!

[Niall C]

Emil,

On rereading your post I think that what you said was quite clear, it was just my misunderstanding, sorry about that.

Niall

[Jim Tang]

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll ever see the European model here in America, especially at the top tier clubs.  When guys join clubs, they are paying for access to a great course, but even more importantly, they are paying for exclusivity.  As mentioned earlier, people who join Cypress, Augusta, Pine Valley, Sand Hills, Shinny, etc. are pretty much immune to the financial rollercoster we're all on.  Even if you had bunches of members dropping out at these clubs, there would be 100's of guys just waiting to pay whatever it took to get in.

[Josh Stevens]

But dont forget that the UK has the Society system.  I am from Oz, but here in the UK for a few years, not long enough to join a proper club so I am in a society; my games I booked for this year with my society, a few corporate outings , and my own travels is:

Woking
New Zealand
Rye
Royal St Georges
St Georges Hill
Deal
Walton Heath (both)
Swinley
Hankley Common
Sunningdale (both)
Royal Worlington and Newmarket
Carnoustie
Turnbery
Wentworth west
Hunstanton
Royal West Norfolk

Sure it isnt cheap, but not that bad a list.  So yes, give me the UK system any day over the US

[Christoph Meister]

Hi folks,

here in continental Europe we seem to have a similar system in most countries, I give you the example how it works in Germany, but it's the same in Swtzerland, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlans etc.): 99,9% of all golf clubs are member in the national golf federation. Every member of a golf club gets a credit card sized identification card which is issued yearly stating name, handicap and home club. Also the card shows the logo of the National Golf Federation and the European Golf Federation (some times on the back of the card)

I show this card whenever I arrive at the check-in desk of a golf club I am visiting. My home club will admit anyone on a greenfee basis showing the before mentionned card and on the same basis I'll be admitted at any other golf club in Germany against paying a greenfee, be it a very private or even a public golf course. Some clubs especially in metropolitain areas do have restriction as they do not allow geust players not playing with a member on weekend.

This system avoids writing letters of introduction and has been used at least 20 years now.....Personal information contained in the magnetic stripe on the card allows clubs where I am visiting to wipe the card through a reader and printing out greenfee tickets or tournament score cards without having to type my name or details into the computer.

Also there is a national federation of golf players without a home club (a similar club also exists in other continental countries like Switzerland or the Netherlands) - this official national federation is for people who, for whatever reason (financial reason or because they are constantly moving in between different towns or because they just don't like joining a club), are choosing not to join a private club. They will also receive a credit-card sized yearly plastic card similar to the before mentionned one, the only disadvantage is that some very private clubs do not admit these players or only admit them against a severe extra charge...

Christoph

[Tom_Doak]

Christoph:

That's how I played Hamburger GC (Falkenstein) with a friend a few years back ... he showed his membership card from a different club, and we were on the tee!  And that's probably the best course in Germany, and one of the most prestigious clubs.

I wish it were that simple here in the USA.  At Sebonack I am an honorary member, but I can't just call and arrange a game for you -- I pretty much have to fly out there and meet you for you to play.  Same goes for Merion, Pine Valley, Augusta National (if the member leaves the grounds to go to a pharmacy, his guests have to go with him!), and maybe half of the top 40 courses.  After that they get a lot more relaxed.

[Peter Wagner]

You guys are forgetting one very important point here:  initiation fees are typically much less in Europe and the U.K. than they are in the U.S.

If you plunked down a large chunk to join a US private you wouldn't be too happy to see lots of non-member play.  The U.K. model of much lower initiation fees allows for more tolerance of strangers on the first tee.  I don't know that either model is better than the other as they both seem to have work well in the past.

[Cliff Hamm]

Is it any wonder that American golf is considered by the general population to reek of snobbery?  Unfortunately, it is true at the highest levels. 

[Christoph Meister]

Christoph:

That's how I played Hamburger GC (Falkenstein) with a friend a few years back ... he showed his membership card from a different club, and we were on the tee!  And that's probably the best course in Germany, and one of the most prestigious clubs.

I wish it were that simple here in the USA.  At Sebonack I am an honorary member, but I can't just call and arrange a game for you -- I pretty much have to fly out there and meet you for you to play.  Same goes for Merion, Pine Valley, Augusta National (if the member leaves the grounds to go to a pharmacy, his guests have to go with him!), and maybe half of the top 40 courses.  After that they get a lot more relaxed.

Tom,
you exactly got the message right: For once it seems we Continental Europeans have a system that is easy to handle. My home-club at Wentorf-Reinbek was founded in 1901, a few years before Hamburger Golf Club  (Falkenstein) was instituted. But still, if you were a member of a German golf club founded in 2005 and playing off a handicap less than -36 you would be allowed to play at my club or at Falkenstein. On the other hand someone who is not a member of a golf club recognized by national golf union, be it a public or non public club, would not be allowed to play at my club or any other club in Germany....

Christoph

[Ron Csigo]

Unless you know a member, it seems that the only way 'the average Joe' can play the top US courses is via charity auctions/events and writing a big check.  It's a shame because I think most people would pay the hefty, unaccompanied guest greens fee to play a top tier private US course.  Even if it's only once.  I think that would be good enough for most of us. 

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