Harry Colt's Caird Park, Dundee

[Marty Bonnar]

Some time ago, whilst perusing the Colt Association website, I was struck with the entry in the list of golf course which read Dundee3. The 3 attached stands for 'Not located – further research required'.

My interest piqued, I contacted the City Archivist who after a bit of rummaging around his dusty old shelves was in fact able to confirm that Harry Shap was indeed the architect of the fair green.

He was kind enough to also send me some press cuttings of the opening day which totally FAIL to mention El Colt, but do give a bit of flavour to how the course was developed and of how it was received in it's early days.





Last week, I finally had a day to go and visit the course and to take some pics. I spoke with the Pro and with the Club Secretary, who were quite nonplussed at any mention of the word 'Colt' and were totally unaware of his name. Apparently, there is a club history which may or may not mention him, but they couldn't find a copy at the time.

Being a Town Muni, the course has had the good fortune of never having had any money spent on it, with the result that most of the original features are still more or less intact. So, enough with the words, here's some of the 'visuals'. I hope you like them as much as I did!

Initially, my camera was stuck on B+W - maybe old Harry was there with me!


Wicked strategically-placed fairway bunker and approach to a WILD green complex.


A few shots of that wildness!!










Marvellous frontage to the Par3 12th


13th green and more of that mounding!


Fairway bunker on 14th


Greenside chasm on 15 (note stupid tree planting over adjacent sand)


15 Green - marvellous mini-greens within a monster!


Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous green site on 17. Note Caird Park's very own DA!!!


Closing hole - note charming use of greenkeepers yard to confuse the golfer...


All in all, a very very pleasant experience visiting this fascinating history lesson. Next thing is to go play it. Anyone for a game???

cheers,
FBD.

[David_Tepper]

Marty -

Congrats on a great find!

If the rest of the course is remotely as interesting as the pics you have posted, it would be well worth seeing.

By the way, do many cities in Scotland and/or the UK have an "archivist" on staff?

Dt 

[Bill_McBride]

I have to say, Marty lad, that it looks a lot older than the 1920's.  Those geometric mounds are right out the 1890's in the US.  I love the chocolate drop entrance mounds, Nicklaus has caught a lot of grief over the years for shaping a lot of those at Loxahatchee and Grand Cypress!

[Bradley Anderson]

What a beautiful golf course. Marty do you think that the tees are also original here? If they are, that would be very interesting to see how those set up with the holes. It also appears that the trees here have not encroached.

[Gary Slatter]

Some time ago, whilst perusing the Colt Association website, I was struck with the entry in the list of golf course which read Dundee3. The 3 attached stands for 'Not located – further research required'.

My interest piqued, I contacted the City Archivist who after a bit of rummaging around his dusty old shelves was in fact able to confirm that Harry Shap was indeed the architect of the fair green.

He was kind enough to also send me some press cuttings of the opening day which totally FAIL to mention El Colt, but do give a bit of flavour to how the course was developed and of how it was received in it's early days.





Last week, I finally had a day to go and visit the course and to take some pics. I spoke with the Pro and with the Club Secretary, who were quite nonplussed at any mention of the word 'Colt' and were totally unaware of his name. Apparently, there is a club history which may or may not mention him, but they couldn't find a copy at the time.

Being a Town Muni, the course has had the good fortune of never having had any money spent on it, with the result that most of the original features are still more or less intact. So, enough with the words, here's some of the 'visuals'. I hope you like them as much as I did!

Initially, my camera was stuck on B+W - maybe old Harry was there with me!


Wicked strategically-placed fairway bunker and approach to a WILD green complex.


A few shots of that wildness!!










Marvellous frontage to the Par3 12th


13th green and more of that mounding!


Fairway bunker on 14th


Greenside chasm on 15 (note stupid tree planting over adjacent sand)


15 Green - marvellous mini-greens within a monster!


Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous green site on 17. Note Caird Park's very own DA!!!


Closing hole - note charming use of greenkeepers yard to confuse the golfer...


All in all, a very very pleasant experience visiting this fascinating history lesson. Next thing is to go play it. Anyone for a game???
let me know when, 01334 837023  cheers, Gary

cheers,
FBD.

[Jason McNamara]

Marty -

There is the tiniest bit of detail on the Dundee City website itself, so there must be some source material somewhere.
http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/golf/history2.htm

No mention in Cornish & Whitten, fwiw.

Easy to find on Google Earth, btw.  Just 1.5 miles due N of the northern end of the Tay Road Bridge, in the crook of the A90.

[Scott Macpherson]

Hi Marty,

I'd be interest to join you for a game. Email me.

scott

[Niall C]

Marty,

Good find. The cooncil website does give a bit more info about Colts involvement, although like most courses here doesn't really go overboard in promoting itself by association to the designer. I'd always heard it wasn't much of a course but would be happy to join you in a game to find out more.

Email me if you're up for a game.

Niall

[Jason McNamara]

Bumped, because

(a) posts on this thread were lost when the server needed to be burped
(b) we've got another stupid Wie thread and another political wank-fest at the top of the thread list


Tony Muldoon mentioned there were a few other Colt courses still to be found.
(Going by what he noted is likely an outdated list on the Colt Assoc. website...)

Downe
Highclere (Newbury)
Lampeter
Lelant
Lockinge
Southend on Sea
Waddesden

Hendaye - France

FBD (thanks for the great sleuth work!) said it was likely little had changed due to a muni course having little money, but isn't it possible some of the bunkers were filled in?

Look fwd to more discussion on this, esp. if Paul Turner can get to a white courtesy phone.

[Brian_Ewen]

FBD
Thanks for posting .

I have played it , but many moons ago .

Unlike yourself , I still cant tell my Harry Hills from Harry Colts .

[Rob Rigg]

That is some cool stuff going on - were those mounding features around the green common for the time or are they unique to Colt? It seems very edgy and a bit "unnatural" for the 1920s?

[Andy Levett]

Tony Muldoon mentioned there were a few other Colt courses still to be found.
(Going by what he noted is likely an outdated list on the Colt Assoc. website...)

Downe
Highclere (Newbury)
Lampeter
Lelant
Lockinge
Southend on Sea
Waddesden

Hendaye - France

Lelant is another name for West Cornwall.
Looking at that list on the Colt Association website, Manchester is asterisked as a Mackenzie course. Really?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Marty

Great find.

Not much in the Scotsman apart from this short article that appeared on the Monday following the Saturday 3rd of November 1923 Formal Opening.



Melvyn

[Jason McNamara]

Tony Muldoon mentioned there were a few other Colt courses still to be found.
(Going by what he noted is likely an outdated list on the Colt Assoc. website...)

(others deleted)

Lelant

Lelant is another name for West Cornwall.

Yeah, but the club's own site only mentions Tyacke, and I can't find any other mentions elsewhere, so that's kinda odd.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks Jason, glad someone saw it before it disappeared.

To cut a long story short.

Southend on Sea is actually Belfair’s where the 18th green features not one but two Donut bunkers, five years before Muirfield.




Of course there are also clubs that the Colt Association haven’t picked up on

E.g. Upminster although only about 4 Colt holes survive.


Re Dundee

I can't see many trees that I believe are more than 40 years old.

Speculating: Colt got the gig because as Melvyn’s splendid find says a toff paid for it, and Colt may have been a friend.   However said toff was too mean to pay for any of Colt's usual hired help and hence those mounds look like they were built by neophytes.

[Andrew Summerell]

Martin,

On Google Earth there seems to be some abandoned holes west of their little 9 holer. Were they also part of Caird Park?

[Marty Bonnar]

Martin,

On Google Earth there seems to be some abandoned holes west of their little 9 holer. Were they also part of Caird Park?

Andrew,
only Colt, God and a few of the old City Council members (and they're a' deid!) might be able to answer that one!
There's literally so little recorded history for this place that it's impossible to make any kind of definitive statement - on anything!
The Caird family were MASSIVE in the history of Dundee though. Local merchants and toun worthies, their name reverberates through much of the town's development. For example, the Caird Hall is the main venue for music and theatre even today. I've seen many's a good band there and, if I'd ever completed my first degree, would have graduated for the first time there!
FBD.

[Brian_Ewen]

For example, the Caird Hall is the main venue for music and theatre even today. I've seen many's a good band there

Like the Average White Band ?

[Marty Bonnar]

For example, the Caird Hall is the main venue for music and theatre even today. I've seen many's a good band there

Like the Average White Band ?

Yes, indeedy, Brian!
As I recall, a couple of members of the AWB were a few years ahead of me in Architecture school in Dundee before they left to form the band.
Boy, those 1970s were really groovy, baby...

FBD.

[Sean Walsh]

Rob,

The mounds remind me of a few holes at Huntercombe.  Especially the par 3 near the road, can't for the life of me think of the hole number.

That was designed by Park jr in 1900 so well before this.






These aren't the greatest photos but the best I could find of what I mean

[Paul_Turner]

Martin

Is it more than a year since you were over here?

Nice job!  I'd only seen one or two crappy pics on the web of this unknown Colt.  Must say that some of the mounding is much more abrupt than I've seen on any other of his courses; the closest I can think of is a much neglected muni in Brum called Brand Hall which has some of those "pop up" bunkers. 

But the par 3s look much more in the company style. 

If only some old pics could be tracked down? 

[Scott Macpherson]

Marty,

On your advice I visited Caird Park yesterday and thought the golf course was very interesting. The routing has 2 loops of nine, but within those are 'mini loops' like what Colt liked to do. It is reasonably easy to see what were the original Colt bunkers, as most of the new ones sit flat into the ground. It was sad to see the cross bunker on the 3rd hole mostly filled in, but the form around it still exists.

For £16.75 this is great value, and the back nine has a number of interesting features. e.g.

15th- short hole with green sloping away form line of play,
16th-  5 foot high hump in the middle of the fwy just short of the green - blocking visibility and requiring an aerial approach.
17th great par 3
18th- blind approach to green (the only one on the course) and a hidden bunker!!!

Btw, the nice old Pro still had your card by his till, but couldn't recall who you thought designed the course. I guess it just doesn't matter... to some.

nice research.


scott

[Sean_A]

FBD 

Very interesting find.  Do you really think Colt had anything to do with those pop up mounds in 1923?  I am finding it very hard to believe.

Sean

The Huntercombe hole which reminds you of Caird Park is #7. 

Ciao

[Marty Bonnar]

SeanW,
hope you are all well!! Nice mounds there, but not nearly as madly artificial as Caird Park!!!

Paul,
it is indeed that long. Next trip over is Vegas in September.
Re pics - there just doesn't seem to be much in the archives at all. Even the clubhouse is devoid of much 'history'.

Scott,
glad you enjoyed it! Here's a pic of that tortoiseshell mound on 16. Wehey!!


...and a panorama from the left side of the 17th greensite. Really outstanding. I'm so envious that you've played it!


Arbs,
I wish I knew more about the place. It's very frustrating that there's so little evidence. I've emailed the Colt Assoc a number of times, but never get any replies. Is there anybody there these days!?!?

FBD.

[Rich Goodale]

Paul, Marty etc.

Vis a vis info, has anybody access to the Dundee Courier archives?  They didn't list the building blocks of that great city as "Jam, Jute and Journalism" for nothing.....

Rich