Attention Colorado GCAers...CommonGround Round? July 8--Final Call!

[Doug Wright]

The new CommonGround GC is now open. Some of us have played it. I'm definitely a fan as it is both playable for golfers of all ages, gender and abilities and plenty challenging for the accomplished player due in particular to the workmanship on and around the greens. I'd like to see if there is interest in getting a group of GolfClubAtlas aficionados out there sometime this summer. Please reply to this thread or IM or email me if you're interested.  

[Doug Wright]

The new CommonGround GC is now open. Some of us have played it. I'm definitely a fan as it is both playable for golfers of all ages, gender and abilities and plenty challenging for the accomplished player due in particular to the workmanship on and around the greens. I'd like to see if there is interest in getting a group of GolfClubAtlas aficionados out there sometime this summer. Please reply to this thread or IM or email me if you're interested. 

[Brad Tufts]

I'd like to hear a preliminary review and some pics, if anyone is inclined?

It would be interesting to hear some opinions in relation to what Tom has said about the course, and the pics I have seen of the reconstruction on their website.

I will be out in September to check it out regardless...

[Thomas Patterson]

I would love to get out there for a group event.  I've been meaning to head out there since it opened (we were out East opening weekend), but have not had a chance.  If the weather cooperates, I will get out there today or tomorrow evening after work.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

I'm certainly interested in playing it -- when I make my annual visit to Colorado later this summer.

Doug, can you describe how the course fares against the likes of say a Murphy's Creek or Buffalo Run ?

I don't have the stats -- but what is the overall distance / CR / slope ?  Thanks ...

[Brad Swanson]

Hi Doug,
   Pencil in a time for me and a friend on July 24 in the afternoon if you can swing it.

Cheers,
Brad

[Ben Sims]

I will be in CO this weekend to play Ballyneal and CommonGround.  I will be posting pics of my round at CommonGround and trying to start a thread that juxtaposes both courses in todays golf construction climate.  I understand that it's going to be comparing apples to oranges, but I am sure there will be some takeaways that we can all learn from.  If any of you GCA'ers are in town this Sunday, I'll be driving back from Holyoke that morning with a tee time of 1015 out at CG. 

Plus I am giddy to see two more Renaissance layouts!

[Garland Bayley]

...
Plus I am giddy to see two more Renaissance layouts!

Oh no! Another Tom Doak BB!

[Ben Sims]

Careful Garland...

If you meant that statement in jest, good on you.  If not, read on.

Here's what I have to say about traveling far and wide to see Renaissance courses.  If they sucked, I wouldn't go see them.  If Mr. Doak and his associates designed courses that weren't fun to play and had waterfalls and containment mounding, I wouldn't spend taxpayer salary to enjoy them. It's not like I make the kind of money that's conducive to being a golf traveler, so, I make it point to see the best.  This modern--1995 to present--golden age of architecture has been spearheaded by a few architects that we all enjoy on this site.  Some guys like C&C more, some like Renaissance more.  There are many more modern designers that we could add to that list, but those two have been the tip of the spear for the new minimalism.  I have made it point to tell anyone that will listen about my trip to Bandon in April and what those 4 days have meant to me.  It was quite simply, life changing.  I am sure it was no coincidence that the first 36 hours I was there, I was fortunate enough to experience Sheep Ranch, Pac Dunes, Old Mac. So yes, I guess you could define me as Doak BB.  Everyone has their mentors, I've got a grandad, a few dead generals and now a golf architect on that list.  Sorry if that is tired and predictable, but its the reality of the situation in how I see golf courses.  If Fazio designed like TD, I am sure I would be his BB too, but he doesn't. 

Like I told my fiance'. "Honey, I didn't buy you that car because it says BMW, I bought it for it's reputation, safety, handling, etc.  If Chevrolet did all those things as well, I would've bought one of those." 

[Garland Bayley]

Ben,

You went to Bandon and didn't play Bandon Crossings by the very talented Dan Hixon? That really shows you are a Doak BB. If you want to see something great you need to get out to the Grudge Match at Hixson's Wine Valley.
 

[Ben Sims]

Garland,

When is this so called grudge match?  I might throw my name in for competition's sake. 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

When is this so called grudge match?  I might throw my name in for competition's sake. 

Come on Ben, kick the drinking and pay attention. It's been at the top of the first page of the website for two days now.

[Ben Sims]

I don't pay attention to what's at the top of the page Bayley.  Unless it has to do with Merion, then I'm all in.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't pay attention to what's at the top of the page Bayley.  Unless it has to do with Merion, then I'm all in.

LOL

[Wyatt Halliday]

CommonGround is a case study in subtlety. It proves that great architecture can exist on less than ideal property. I believe that Renaissance Golf has met and exceeded the Colorado Golf Association’s goals for a home golf course. The edict that is normally discussed on this board is in full function at CG: Variety, playability, angles & options. The detail work is what you would expect from the RG team, and more importantly, it is managed by folks that will maintain the harmony and integrity of the course.

Matt:

The card lists the total yardage at 7198, but it can be stretched to around 7325.

-   The sixth hole has an additional back tee that it shares with #13 and plays near 225-230yds.
-   The same tee, used at thirteen, measures out in the 470yd. territory, although I don’t believe either will get much use in regular daily play.
-   The fourteenth hole actually has a tee in play that measures 235yds.

The finishing stretch (14-18) at CG is extremely difficult and not just due to yardage. Each hole requires proper placement for approach, and while birdies are not impossible, they are well earned. The eighteenth is a bit of a respite although not a pushover, and should serve as an exciting finish for tournaments. Doug Wright’s favorite tree is featured here.

As far as comparisons go, I am fond of both Murphy Creek and Buffalo Run. CommonGround just simply has more compelling holes. The brilliance of the short 8th, the fall away green at the 10th, the potential reward elements of the 11th, the ODG feel of the 16th, and finally the almost perfect 13th which I think is the best hole in the city.

I really didn’t want to comment without posting pics. I was planning a complete photo tour sometime in early July. At the very least I thought I would give Ben a few items to look for when he visits.

Most importantly CommonGround has a common link to great golf courses…when the final putt drops on eighteen, you can’t wait to play it again.

Wyatt

[Tom_Doak]

Wyatt:

Thanks for your nice review.

The most interesting part of it (for me) was that you chose to highlight completely different holes than I would have highlighted -- except for #16 which is one of my favorites.  I am particularly complimented by what you said about #8, which was a flat wide dull stretch of ground with a bad backdrop, and which I spent more time wrestling with than any other hole out there.

P.S.  I would never recommend playing #6 from that back tee, it was put in only for #13.

[Ben Sims]

Wyatt,

Thanks so much.  After a lackluster performance today in the jet; my mood changed drastically when I saw your post.  No doubt I have high hopes for both courses I will see this weekend.  But CG in particular is exciting to me.  Renaissance has worked on flat sites before, but I think the idea and edict behind this latest project is special, and in line with the exciting future of frugal minimalism and relatively inexpensive strategy.  

[Doug Wright]

A few thoughts on CommonGround after 1 1/2 rounds there. Sorry no photos yet but here's a link to the course website photos: http://www.commongroundgc.com/tour.aspx

The course is all about width and angles. The better player will appreciate the angles; the lesser player will appreciate the width.

This is not a course with "Wow Factor," so Ben Sims don't go there after Ballyneal expecting a municipal Ballyneal. It has a number of very solid, interesting golf holes. The only real "wow" I experienced was taking in the views created by the routing. Holes that play directly towards a snow capped Mt. Evans, Long's Peak, and my office building in downtown Denver. I don't think these were accidental; Tom Doak can confirm or deny.

The thing that sets CommonGround apart from courses like Buffalo Run is the finish work such as the detailing of the bunkering and the greens and greensites. The greens are varied and interesting, for the most part more subtle than striking. Though I may retract that last comment once they become a bit faster and some like the 6th are not subtle at all...

As has been mentioned on the thread detailing Bethpage Black, a number of the tees steer the unwitting golfer towards the edges of wide fairways where bunkers often lurk. I experienced this in particular on the par 5 2d, the par 5 11th and the long par 4 15th. This creates a kind of uneasiness as you adjust to play away from those corners.

Par 3s:  The 144 yard 2d to a large pushed up green and the 188 yard 6th, which is a replica of ANGC's 16th, are my favorite par 3s. My comment on the other par 3s (11, 14 and 17) is that each is increasingly more difficult than the one before. One of my few negative comments about the course is that I hit the same club (5 wood) on each of those long par 3s.

My favorite holes are #4, a medium length dogleg left par 4 that has a "bite off what you dare" tee shot, #11, a risk-reward par 5 with a cool "foozle bunker" 100 yards or so off the tee,  #13, an excellent, beautifully bunkered par 4 with a great push-up green with a false front (there are several false fronts throughout), #16, a long par 4 that gently doglegs left around a beautiful stand of trees and is just a classic looking hole.

Least favorites: Unlike Wyatt, I'm not sold on #8 as "brilliant." It's just OK IMO. And that pine tree short right of 18 green is still just a "stupid tree" IMO. It will probably only bother the average golfer and might leave a bad taste in his/her mouth at the end of the round. Just my opinion I could be wrong...   

The back nine is much harder than the front. The stretch from 14-17 is particularly challenging.

CommonGround is a thoughtful, well-designed and executed golf course. Unlike many modern courses (including one like Murphy Creek), the average golfer won't walk off feeling abused (unless caught up in the tree on 18) and there's plenty of challenge and interest for the better player. As Wyatt said, it's a course one will readily want to play again.
         

[Matt_Ward]

Can those who have played CommonGround provide an approximate ratings placement in Colorado -- among public courses that is ?

Thanks ...

[Wyatt Halliday]

Doug,

Since I've had some time to think about the "Stupid Tree", I think it's sole purpose is to get in the way of those attempting to go at the green in two. From the middle right of the fairway, the top of the flag can barely be seen, and it appears to be just behind the tree which in effect says "challenge me!". If a tee shot challenges the bunker left, the angle is better but the view is more obscured because of the slope of the landing area. For those playing it as a three shot hole, the proper angle is to come in from the left which totally eliminates the participation of the "Stupid tree".  The average golfer should never notice its existence.

An unorganized thought I know, but I figured it's enough to get your blood boiling a bit

I will wait to debate eight--

[Doug Wright]

Doug,

Since I've had some time to think about the "Stupid Tree", I think it's sole purpose is to get in the way of those attempting to go at the green in two. From the middle right of the fairway, the top of the flag can barely be seen, and it appears to be just behind the tree which in effect says "challenge me!". If a tee shot challenges the bunker left, the angle is better but the view is more obscured because of the slope of the landing area. For those playing it as a three shot hole, the proper angle is to come in from the left which totally eliminates the participation of the "Stupid tree".  The average golfer should never notice its existence.

An unorganized thought I know, but I figured it's enough to get your blood boiling a bit

I will wait to debate eight--

Wyatt,

Your analysis of said tree makes  sense. I think Tom Doak made a similar comment to me at some point. In any case I ain't buying it. You may recall that I played a shot (my third... ) with a fairway wood from approximately the "go zone" and carried said tree fairly easily en route to the right green side bunker. You went for the green too with your second shot--did you worry about said tree? I think not.... So the better player won't care about said tree; the average player will more often than not hit a sliced 2d shot behind said tree instead of a well-placed shot to the proper left side position. 

Matt,

For me it's too early to rank CG. I need to play it a few more times. Also I think you should play it yourself pardner before we get into the rankings game. FYI the rating and slope for this par 71 course is 72.7/128.  Let me say this amigo--CommonGround is a fine addition to the already robust regiment of public courses here in the Centennial State. 

[Richard Choi]

I was hoping to play Fossil Trace on Friday, but it looks like there are no tee times there that will work. Instead, I got a tee time on Friday for CommonGround.

Looking forward to it.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Here are some of my photos to get the appetites going for your rounds out there. Some are from a few weeks ago on opening day, some were before that during the preview round, and one during grow in at the end of last summer.

I had a great time working out there and really enjoyed the finished product. Great greens and simple, strategic bunkering make it uncluttered and let you go out and have fun (which is what it should be all about). So many interesting and subtle things that make it a great place to play golf, and all in a way that is a very sustainable and intelligent way to build, operate, and maintain a golf course.

My favorite holes out there are 7, 3, and 8, but it could easily be three others.

The par 4 13th:


The par 4 16th, at the bend of the fairway:


The par 5 3rd, looking down at the punchbowl green from the player's left:


The par 3 17th:


Par 4 4th at the green:


and from the 15th fairway:


Par 5 7th:


Par 3 12th:

[Wyatt Halliday]

Matt,

I too will refrain from the rankings game for now. It's not the most scenic, nor is it the most difficult, it is perhaps the most fun. I'll put it this way, there is nothing else quite like it on the public scene. That's just to say it's different. For those expecting Riverdale Dunes Redux, they will be surprised...in a good way. It's just pure, simple, solid architecture. It feels so Midwestern, I would say it's in that spirit.

It doesn't need any propping, the course stands up for itself. I think I'm pretty familiar with your taste which leads me to believe you will take it at face value, and like it.

Wyatt

[Wyatt Halliday]

Thanks for sharing the pictures Peter.

I think the thirteenth at CG is the second cousin twice removed of the thriteenth at Ballyneal.