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Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3725 on: August 02, 2009, 12:18:23 PM »
OK I am going to dip my toe into this thread but I am begging for your mercy ahead of time.

I have enjoyed the articles and the back and forth and I have learned a tremendous amount about Merion.  I also think I understand where both sides are coming from and why the exchanges can get vitriolic at times.

Let me preface my questions with the following comment and observation.  I understand the difficulty of writing a club history that is accurate and certainly understand the politics of what to include or not include.  The notion that history is written by the victors is never more true than when a club tries to credit or omit whomever they wish in "their" hsitory.  At my club for example the original partnership my father has was not a good one and ended badly.  When a club history was written for the 25th anniversary I can assure you the former partners role and contributions were deliberately downplayed or simply omited.

The question of who designed the course would be an intersting one now.  The course was originally done by Joe Lee in 1973 and it was a pretty good Joe Lee.  In 2006 Michael Riley re-did every tee, bunker and green and changed the routing or location of six different greens.  I was very involved and on a daily basis was part of the process as well.

Let me be clear that I knew then and know now that I in no way could have been the designer.  I would no more know where to place a pump station or how to drain a bunker or build a green than the man on the moon.  However I personally "approved" everything.  I spent hours going over drawings with Mike, discussing every single aspect of the courswe, came up with my own "amateur" drawings  and contributed a lot to the finished product. 

Joey the shaper actually built the course and the greens and Juan created the bunkers.  Mike and I would draw and re-draw pics, look through books for insppitrarion,and, of course, have our own ideas and then communicate those to Joey or Juan.  We'd come back in a few hours and go back and forth over what should be re-done or not.  One gren site we "found" was just about perfect on the ground.  Mike likened it to a "potato chip" and used that exact word to describe to Joey what it should look like.  Joey would pull out his eye level device? and usually look at Mike and I like "are you sure!" and we would say yeah, laugh and then wait for him to create the funky shape.

At the end of the day Michael Riley is 100% the designer but it is a hugely collaberative process.  In the case of Merion and many of the Philadelphia courses I think you had some tremendous minds all working together as the course evolved and I am not so sure it makes sense to try and find who was THE designer in that case.

Now to my question:

I was reading a book "Keepers of the Green" and I will quote from it a passage or two that further confused me about Merion.  Let me first mention that months ago I quoted from the Shinnecock Hills book purchased from SH where a passage seemed to credit Dick Wilson with a lot of the design and while I tried to make it clear that I was not suggesting anything some felt I was saying Wilson not Flynn was the architect.  I was only trying to find out why the SH history would have given him so much credit--but that's another story.

In this book under the heading "Other Grenkeepers at the Beginning of the Twentieth Century" and "Joe Valentine, America's Famous Greenkeeper" are theses passages:

"Willian Flynn was the first greenkeeper at the Merion GC when it was laid out by Hugh Wilson in 1911.  He stayed for a short time and then became a full time architect.  He was succeeded by Joe Valentine who was hired at the Merion Cricket CLub in 1907 before there was even a golf course.  He (I am not sure who the he is in this case) became construction foreman when the course was built.  Valentine's talents...contributed much to the fame of that old course." (pg. 57).

I also understand that William Flynn had by 1909 laid out his first golf course in Vermont.

In writing about Valentine the book quotes an article written by Valentine's grand-daughter for the "Bonnie Greensward", "In 1907 he (Valentine) became a grounds worker at the Merion Cricket Club in Ardmore, PA.  When Merion's East Course was laid out in 1912, Valentine became foreman under greenkeeper William FLynn.  When the latter had to take a leave of absence to do war work in 1918, Valentine became temporary greenkeeper.  Over the years Valnetine maintained a close working relationship with William Flynn, partly because their skills were complimentary:  Valentine an expert on turfgrass and course maintenenace and Flynn, a well-known golf architect skilled in course construction."

Later the book quotes Dean Hill, the Merion Green Chairman at the time of Valentine's death to have remarked that their superintendent had acted "pretty much the part of course architect during his long years of service."  I include this last sentence/quote only to show how in perhaps an attempt to eulogize or magnify a person's contribution, people stretch the truth a bit.  Please understand I am not trying to make the "Whittenesque" super as architect argument at all--I just found it interesting how that comment got recorded by a club official and preserved so to speak.

My question is what would the Merion experts (I mean that seriously) say about the quotes in the "Keepers of the Green" book?  Was Flynn, assuming I got the right guy who had designed and constructed a course in 1909, as the only one with true construction experience by 1911-12 perhaps more helpful than given credit for at the early formation of the East Course?  Again, I am just asking and apologize if this seems stupid.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3726 on: August 02, 2009, 12:21:08 PM »

I understand both David's frustration AND your call to let the earnest research continue.

But I agree with Phil that as long as this thread contains little but sniping, parsing, etc. that it ought to cease and desist.
Jeff, the sniping and parsing should cease and desist, but, the search for more information should continue.


What earnest research has been on this thread lately, comparable to finding and posting little known documents on the Campbell thread, for instance?  There hasn't been much new here for the last 55 pages or so.

It would appear that research efforts have stalled as of late and that any and all efforts to structure a joint, harmonious research effort have failed, but, hope springs eternal that progress will be made in the effort to learn more about the genesis of Merion.


« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 02:00:36 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3727 on: August 02, 2009, 01:01:54 PM »
Pat,

I neither said to David or Mike to NOT POST. You misread what I suggested.

"Sit back and don't post anymore on this thread or any other where A Merion argument begins..." You misunderstand what I meant and also that it was said to Mike and not David.

I have maintained that the DISCUSSION is important and should keep going. But the arguing in the manner that has gone on simply must stop.

Mike telling David that he has made a mistake is proper. David responding that Mike misunderstood what was written is also proper. Being vulgar and/or insulting in the manner in which it is done is wrong.

 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3728 on: August 02, 2009, 08:26:19 PM »
Now to my question:

I was reading a book "Keepers of the Green" and I will quote from it a passage or two that further confused me about Merion.  Let me first mention that months ago I quoted from the Shinnecock Hills book purchased from SH where a passage seemed to credit Dick Wilson with a lot of the design and while I tried to make it clear that I was not suggesting anything some felt I was saying Wilson not Flynn was the architect.  I was only trying to find out why the SH history would have given him so much credit--but that's another story.

In this book under the heading "Other Grenkeepers at the Beginning of the Twentieth Century" and "Joe Valentine, America's Famous Greenkeeper" are theses passages:

"Willian Flynn was the first greenkeeper at the Merion GC when it was laid out by Hugh Wilson in 1911.  He stayed for a short time and then became a full time architect.  He was succeeded by Joe Valentine who was hired at the Merion Cricket CLub in 1907 before there was even a golf course.  He (I am not sure who the he is in this case) became construction foreman when the course was built.  Valentine's talents...contributed much to the fame of that old course." (pg. 57).

I also understand that William Flynn had by 1909 laid out his first golf course in Vermont.

In writing about Valentine the book quotes an article written by Valentine's grand-daughter for the "Bonnie Greensward", "In 1907 he (Valentine) became a grounds worker at the Merion Cricket Club in Ardmore, PA.  When Merion's East Course was laid out in 1912, Valentine became foreman under greenkeeper William FLynn.  When the latter had to take a leave of absence to do war work in 1918, Valentine became temporary greenkeeper.  Over the years Valnetine maintained a close working relationship with William Flynn, partly because their skills were complimentary:  Valentine an expert on turfgrass and course maintenenace and Flynn, a well-known golf architect skilled in course construction."

Later the book quotes Dean Hill, the Merion Green Chairman at the time of Valentine's death to have remarked that their superintendent had acted "pretty much the part of course architect during his long years of service."  I include this last sentence/quote only to show how in perhaps an attempt to eulogize or magnify a person's contribution, people stretch the truth a bit.  Please understand I am not trying to make the "Whittenesque" super as architect argument at all--I just found it interesting how that comment got recorded by a club official and preserved so to speak.

My question is what would the Merion experts (I mean that seriously) say about the quotes in the "Keepers of the Green" book?  Was Flynn, assuming I got the right guy who had designed and constructed a course in 1909, as the only one with true construction experience by 1911-12 perhaps more helpful than given credit for at the early formation of the East Course?  Again, I am just asking and apologize if this seems stupid.

Chris,

Responding to anything around here with the word Flynn in it is usually pretty risky business and often leads to a scolding or two, regardless of the validity of the points.   So for now I'll just say that I think there may be some factual errors in the statement you quote.  I don't think that Flynn was Merion's first greenkeeper, and I do not believe that he or Joe Valentine headed the construction of the East Course.  Pickering was reportedly brought in to construct the course, but I don't think he was hired until after the layout plan had been finalized.

Also, Merion Cricket Club already had a golf course in 1907, but it was eventually replaced by the East Course and the West.  

As for Flynn having designed a course in Vermont in 1909, I don't know whether that is true or not, but then I am not privy to The Flynn Bible, King Wayne Version.  

Maybe I am misunderstanding the quotes, but if not I am not sure I would give them too much weight.   I have seen no evidence that Flynn was at all involved in the initial design of Merion.

Hope this helps.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3729 on: August 02, 2009, 10:20:40 PM »
Thanks for the response.  Again, I admit to being a novice on this subject.  I have come across numerous sites that do credit Flynn with his first course in 1909.

"Born in 1890 in Milton, Massachusetts, golf course architect William S. Flynn died at the age of 54 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Flynn graduated from Milton High School, where he had played inter-scholastic golf and competed against his friend Francis Ouimet. He laid out his first course at Hartwellville, Vermont, in 1909 and was then hired to assist Hugh Wilson with completion of the East Course at Merion Golf Club in Merion, Pennsylvania.

     Flynn found his services as a course architect much in demand as a result of his work at Merion. He and Wilson had hoped to form a design partnership, but wilson's failing health prevent it. Instead, Flynn joined forces after World War I with Wilson's friend Howard Toomey, a prominent civil engineer. Flynn was responsible for design and construction while Toomey handled business and financial matters. Hugh Wilson continued to collaborate on courses until his death in 1925. William Gordon, Robert Lawrence and Dick Wilson all started out as assistants with the firm of Toomey and Flynn and all later became prominent designers in their own right.

     Flynn's second love was the art of greenkeeping. He lectured at Penn State and he wrote many articles and pamphlets on the subject. He also started a number of men in the profession, including the great Joe Valentine, long-time superintendent at Merion, whom he met when he himself was serving as greenkeeper at Merion prior to World War I."

And on Fine golf design,"One of the most respected and influential of the "Philadelphia School" of golf course design, William S. Flynn laid out his first course at Hartwellville, VT, in 1909.

Flynn assisted Hugh Wilson with the East Course at Merion Golf Club. Flynn also helped finish Pine Valley after the death of George Crump and served as the course’s agronomist for many years."

Anyway, I appreciate the response and am now completely confused :P
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 11:35:03 PM by Chris Cupit »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3730 on: August 02, 2009, 11:53:34 PM »
Chris
Hartwellville was constructed in 1913, and it is extremely unlikely Flynn designed the course. That course was most likely designed by Alex Findlay. Here is an old thread that tried to separate fact from fiction.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35963.0/

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3731 on: August 03, 2009, 12:02:46 AM »
As for Flynn having designed a course in Vermont in 1909, I don't know whether that is true or not, but then I am not privy to The Flynn Bible, King Wayne Version.  


David,

You continue to attack someone who has not been on this board for months in a personal vendetta, which seems to be your sole purpose in life these days.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:52:42 AM by Ran Please Delete My Profile »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3732 on: August 03, 2009, 12:36:55 AM »
I really hoped to go out better than this, but I do wish to thank the many friends and enjoyable aquaintances I've made here over the years and hope we find a way to keep in touch.

Sadly, many of the people who used to participate here have also left over the years, and perhaps that is natural.

In any case, once any endeavor becomes more combative and argumentative than collaboratively enjoyable, then it's time to move on.

In the past week, two of the most prolific posters on this site have left, and maybe that's natural as well.

Thanks for some great discussion, and for your understanding.

Mike

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3733 on: August 03, 2009, 01:06:49 AM »
Chris
Hartwellville was constructed in 1913, and it is extremely unlikely Flynn designed the course. That course was most likely designed by Alex Findlay. Here is an old thread that tried to separate fact from fiction.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35963.0/

Thanks for the link.  I have some reading to do and this helps.  History is interesting.  Reminds me of my classics studies--Heroditus is looking more and more accurate (and unbiased) :D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3734 on: August 03, 2009, 01:18:23 AM »
Mike,

I think your original post, the one you deleted, better represents your feelings on the matter.  [DELETED]

Sorry you don't find humor in my description of the long anticipated (and just plain long) Flynn "book."  I think it is pretty funny and also apt, except that the King James Bible has less pages and only took 7 years put together.    But then it is only about Jesus Christ, not William Flynn.  

If you want off the website you don't need Ran and you don't need to make a scene.  You could quit posting.   If that proves impossible, you could go to your Profile Settings and delete your user name and press submit.   Easy as that.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:52:49 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Anthony Gray

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3735 on: August 03, 2009, 11:42:04 AM »
I really hoped to go out better than this, but I do wish to thank the many friends and enjoyable aquaintances I've made here over the years and hope we find a way to keep in touch.

Sadly, many of the people who used to participate here have also left over the years, and perhaps that is natural.

In any case, once any endeavor becomes more combative and argumentative than collaboratively enjoyable, then it's time to move on.

In the past week, two of the most prolific posters on this site have left, and maybe that's natural as well.

Thanks for some great discussion, and for your understanding.

Mike


  At what point in our golfing lives do we get to the point where we loose respect for our golfing brothers. This discussion group deserves better. Mike's comments hold much wisdom.

  Anthony

 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3736 on: August 03, 2009, 05:45:34 PM »
Anthony Gray,

I'm not sure if I understand your post.

Are you saying that Mike Cirba wasn't combative and/or  argumentative ?

That he had NO agenda, NO bias ?  ?  ?

That he stuck strictly to the FACTS and didn't make any inflamatory statements or jump to wild conclusions ?

I would certainly prefer for Mike to continue to participate on this site, as I would TEPaul and others, but, if Mike wants to leave, he doesn't need to make a grand exit, he merely has to stop posting.

Anthony Gray

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3737 on: August 03, 2009, 06:02:26 PM »
Anthony Gray,

I'm not sure if I understand your post.

Are you saying that Mike Cirba wasn't combative and/or  argumentative ?

That he had NO agenda, NO bias ?  ?  ?

That he stuck strictly to the FACTS and didn't make any inflamatory statements or jump to wild conclusions ?

I would certainly prefer for Mike to continue to participate on this site, as I would TEPaul and others, but, if Mike wants to leave, he doesn't need to make a grand exit, he merely has to stop posting.

  All I am saying is that it is a shame that people get disrespectful of others on this site. This site has extreme potential but when the posters start not behaving as gentelmen golfers it robs the site. I have no idea who Mike is, but it is unpleasant to see someone with trhat many posts leave.

  Anthony


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3738 on: August 03, 2009, 06:35:13 PM »
Anthony,

Here's what I don't understand.

We're talking about events that happened at a golf course almost a century ago.
We're not talking, contemporaneously, about a participants family, business, or personal issues.

So how can people get so inflamed, so personal over an issue/event that took place 100 years ago ?

I don't get it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3739 on: August 03, 2009, 07:12:54 PM »
So Mike Cirba and who else are gone?  Tom Paul?

I make a motion they come back but take a vow of silence on Merion along with everybody else on GCA.com!  Do I have a second?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3740 on: August 03, 2009, 07:18:13 PM »
Anthony,

Here's what I don't understand.

We're talking about events that happened at a golf course almost a century ago.
We're not talking, contemporaneously, about a participants family, business, or personal issues.

So how can people get so inflamed, so personal over an issue/event that took place 100 years ago ?

I don't get it.

HERE's a post that makes a lot of sense!

maybe Bill's thought is right on:  stop discussing Merion....after more than 100 pages it sure seems like the 2 sides will never agree...so why not just drop it?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3741 on: August 03, 2009, 07:28:27 PM »
 Pat,

   To paraphrase something about faculty meetings I heard-----

      The smaller the stakes; the bigger the fight!
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3742 on: August 03, 2009, 07:55:18 PM »
Pat,

   To paraphrase something about faculty meetings I heard-----

      The smaller the stakes; the bigger the fight!

M2,

I resemblent that remark.  ;)

Joe

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Stephen Britton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3743 on: August 03, 2009, 08:40:58 PM »
Regardless of the reasons for leaving, it's a shame guys like Mike Cirba & TePaul have chosen to leave the site...

As we all know the Philly area has an abundance of great "old" courses to study, these guys were a wealth of knowledge for the site, they obviously had some good connections in Philly, and had a passion for Philly/PA golf courses to broaden everybody's knowledge of GCA in the Philly area.

When I first started checking this website (5 years ago) these guys were two names that always stuck out to me, I always made it a point to check what posts they were involved in.

Not choosing sides, just a little disappointed it's come to this!

P.S. I've never been so nervous to hit "post' as I have on this thread  :D
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 08:51:03 PM by Stephen Britton »
"The chief object of every golf architect or greenkeeper worth his salt is to imitate the beauties of nature so closely as to make his work indistinguishable from nature itself" Alister MacKenzie...

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3744 on: August 03, 2009, 08:45:52 PM »
I absolutely hate we have lost anyone over this.  Hopefully they will realize this is something from 100 years ago and that we can all agree to disagree and move on.  Come back and we can have a Merion moratorium for six months.  The site is better with you than without you.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3745 on: August 03, 2009, 09:42:16 PM »
So Mike Cirba and who else are gone?  Tom Paul?

I make a motion they come back but take a vow of silence on Merion along with everybody else on GCA.com!  Do I have a second?

NO


Taking your football/basketball home so that no one else can play is a devious form of censureship and shouldn't be tolerated.

No one likes TEPaul's contributions more than I do, but holding the discussion group hostage by proclaiming that a particular course is off limits for discussion is improper.

Mike, TE, David, Tom and others have been valuable contributors, but, if they want to leave the site, that's their choice, irrespective of how foolish that choice seems to others.
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Anthony Gray

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3746 on: August 03, 2009, 09:57:21 PM »


  Pat,

  Where else can you go for a discussion of "the ground it is played on"? Aren't the ones that have left frat brothers in a way? This site is like Hotel California ........... you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave. I do not even know Mike but there is grief to see a contributor leave. As for Tom.........who can fill his shoes? It is all sad to say the least. We are poorer not richer.


   Anthony


john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3747 on: August 03, 2009, 10:16:04 PM »

Always thought they would just quit the Merion responses.

But hopefully, it is just one of those ' I, Bernard P. Fife, do hereby submit.....'  resignations.

Tom Paul will be back.  There will be a golf course architecture thread that will bring him back.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3748 on: August 03, 2009, 10:26:05 PM »
"Tom Paul will be back.  There will be a golf course architecture thread that will bring him back."

JohnS:

You are right, there is a golf course architecture thread that will bring me back, at least for a time, but it's not Merion, as that one has been overworked to the point of submission by all (including ME).

It's Myopia and the last post Bob Crosby made----eg EXCELLENT!

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3749 on: August 03, 2009, 11:46:25 PM »
Tom:

I'm glad you liked the levity and I'm sorry you thought I was so serious about what you've been saying about the Tolhurst book. If you could see me sitting here laughing about some of the things you say on here, including that, I doubt you would say I was so serious about it.

Why am I refusing to share the entire April 1911 report with you? I thought I made that abundantly clear on here. It must have been just another of my posts you failed to either read or understand properly. But if you choose to look back and read then I think it will be pretty clear to you.

What was it you said to me over the last year or so and again recently about that Boston article on Willie Campbell and Myopia?  ;)

TEP
If my Myopia/Campbell artilce is the issue I will gladly post it as a token of my good will. We can put the counterproductive bickering behind us and move forward in a more cooperative spirit.

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