News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3600 on: July 29, 2009, 04:16:53 PM »
I just want all the information out so we can then draw our own conclusions. 

David,
Many great historians have successfully written history without having all the facts.  Just recently, for example, have some WWII documents been placed into the public domain.   

I have no idea what is or isn't out there, but complaining here about not having access won't do anybody any good.  This isn't like court where the opposition has a responsibility to provide evidence during discovery.  (I'm not an attorney, so please excuse my errors if I'm wrong with the details in my metaphor).

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3601 on: July 29, 2009, 04:29:32 PM »
I just want all the information out so we can then draw our own conclusions. 

David,
Many great historians have successfully written history without having all the facts.  Just recently, for example, have some WWII documents been placed into the public domain.   

I have no idea what is or isn't out there, but complaining here about not having access won't do anybody any good.  This isn't like court where the opposition has a responsibility to provide evidence during discovery.  (I'm not an attorney, so please excuse my errors if I'm wrong with the details in my metaphor).

No it is not a courtroom.  In a courtroom at least I could understand why the opposition was trying to play games with the documents.  It is supposed to be a conversation.   And in a conversation when one side makes allegations and claims they ought to back those claims up.   Why you and everyone else hasn't demanded this of them is beyond me.  It makes a mockery of the entire conversation and is the sole reason this foolishness is continuing.  I doubt anything that is out there will amount to much of anything, but the TEPaul and Wayne have long claimed that what is out there refutes my essay.  I'd like to see it if only so I can put this absurd claim to rest and get on with my analysis.     

How would you or others have me deal with all this unauthenticated nonsense they have put out?  Should I ignore it?   Doesn't seem right because there is probably some truth in it (even if it is not the truth they claim?)   Should I take it as true?  Doesn't make sense because I know better that to take on faith something that exists and ought to be proven up. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3602 on: July 29, 2009, 04:42:58 PM »
Dan,

I agree with David on this one...if the documents are going to be used retorically they should be available...I also agree with David that it is unlikely revealing the documents would solve anything much at all. The materials that have been posted certainly do not generate a uniform opinion of what each means to the two sides.

I disagree with David that it would make a bit of difference for anyone/everyone else to brow beat Tom and/or Wayne into releasing this information...they're big boys.

The subject is in fact a private club and they are very proud of the archives they have maintained...however, it is still a private club and demanding anything of them is out of line for starters and more importantly, the completely wrong way to go about solving this issue of less than full disclosure within this discussion.

That being said, and with both sides completely unzipped and no consensus in site I predict the Open at Merion will pass before the two sides come together...taking all bets!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3603 on: July 29, 2009, 04:50:38 PM »
It's interesting...the page just prior also talks about the Haskell Ball as a big driver for the creation of a new course as well, which I guess shouldn't surprise us because Richard Francis said the same thing in his 1950 account;



I've been saying for sometime Heilman's book is far superior to Tolhurst's. Tolhurst's book is embarrassing I'm not sure how he avoided being sued by Heilman for plagiarism.

Throughout his book Heilman quotes from the minutes, which begs the question how come he got the story so wrong. If he had the minutes (and he obviously had Hugh Wilson's account) he would known Barker and M&W inspected the site in June 1910, the committee was formed in early 1911, the committee travelled to the NGLA in March 1911 and M&W retuned to Merion in April to finalize the plans. He doesn't mention any of that. He would have also known Wilson travelled to the UK after the trip to the NGLA, and therefore after the course was under construction.

Is Wind the source for the legend of Hugh Wilson?

It is also interesting how little they quote from or use Wilson's own account, the most important account. Tolhurst did not use it at all and Heilman barely mentions it.

Tom,

I'm not sure where he got anything "wrong" by not mentioning some of those things like the Barker letter or Wilson's article on agronomy for P&O?   It just seems to me that in the entirety of the minutes, he didn't see it as relevant to the relatively synopsis of the story he was presenting.

I think all of them made some assumptions based on the Alan Wilson mention of a "first step" after the land was purchased in 1910.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3604 on: July 29, 2009, 05:01:03 PM »
I also question whether there is any mention of Wilson's trip abroad in the MCC Minutes so I'm not sure how reading them would have clued Heilman in on the specific date.

I don't know one way or another, but on the face of it, a trip abroad by a chair of a temporary, ad hoc committee, albeit an important one, does not strike me as something that would rise to a matter for Board consideration.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3605 on: July 29, 2009, 05:21:19 PM »
Mike
I don't know why, but for whatever reason Heilman doesn't give us any key dates. He begins with the Annual report of 1910 and then ends with constrcution beginning in the spring of 1911 and the course opening 9/1912. We are left conclude the events he desribes in between happened between 1910 and spring 1911, incuding Wilson's trip abroad. He got that wrong. He also uses Wind's quote comparing Wilson's trip to CBM's trip. We all know CBM studied those holes before designing the NGLA, and the obvious inference is Wilson did the same. 

Heilman's greatest mistakes are his multiple sins of omission. Tolhurst can be partially excused because I don't think he had the same info at his disposal (his greatest resource was Heilman's book), and he didn't know squat about golf architecture history. Heilman was clearly more competent, and had the information at his disposal but chose not to use it.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3606 on: July 29, 2009, 05:23:59 PM »
I also question whether there is any mention of Wilson's trip abroad in the MCC Minutes so I'm not sure how reading them would have clued Heilman in on the specific date.

I don't know one way or another, but on the face of it, a trip abroad by a chair of a temporary, ad hoc committee, albeit an important one, does not strike me as something that would rise to a matter for Board consideration.

He had Wilson's 1916 account, which mentions the trip occured sometime after the NGLA visit. He would've known when the NGLA visit was from the minutes.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3607 on: July 29, 2009, 05:39:31 PM »
Dan,

I agree with David on this one...if the documents are going to be used retorically they should be available...I also agree with David that it is unlikely revealing the documents would solve anything much at all. The materials that have been posted certainly do not generate a uniform opinion of what each means to the two sides.

I disagree with David that it would make a bit of difference for anyone/everyone else to brow beat Tom and/or Wayne into releasing this information...they're big boys.

The subject is in fact a private club and they are very proud of the archives they have maintained...however, it is still a private club and demanding anything of them is out of line for starters and more importantly, the completely wrong way to go about solving this issue of less than full disclosure within this discussion.

That being said, and with both sides completely unzipped and no consensus in site I predict the Open at Merion will pass before the two sides come together...taking all bets!

Jim, I have never once demanded anything of either club.   Wayne chose to use these documents publically and rhetorically and provided them to others so that they could do the same.  If these documents are indeed private and not meant to be used publicly and rhetorically, then it is Wayne Morrison who is betraying and disrespected these clubs, not me.   And his many past posts arguing for full disclosure and full critical review leave no doubt that Wayne knew better, yet he went ahead anyway.   If this put him in a difficult spot with these clubs, that is a problem of his own creation, not mine.   I should not be held accountable for his arrogant use of their information and the disrespect he has shown to them and all of us.

As for the best way to go about getting the documents, you may be right, but I can only hope that at some point someone at Merion will realize what a mess Wayne and TEPaul have made of this entire situation, and clean up the mess that these two have made, or instruct them to.    I am not holding my breath, but at some point someone will realize that getting the full story out is much more important for Merion than standing behind an out of control "historian."
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 05:43:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3608 on: July 29, 2009, 05:44:03 PM »
Maybe you missed the opening line...



I agree with David on this one...if the documents are going to be used retorically they should be available...


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3609 on: July 29, 2009, 05:47:40 PM »
I got that and appreciate it.  It is about time someone acknowledged this.  Thanks.

I was responding to the second part of your message, about demanding documents from Merion.   I am probably a bit touchy about this topic as I have been wrongly accused of so doing throughout these discussions.   

I think you probably know how I feel about this, so maybe I ought to shut up and just appreciate that at least someone from Philadelphia agrees with me on something.    Thanks.
 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3610 on: July 29, 2009, 05:56:51 PM »
Careful David...I still have to leave here...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3611 on: July 29, 2009, 05:59:15 PM »
Careful David...I still have to leave here...

Never thought I'd see the day when Jim S made a Freudian slip....

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3612 on: July 29, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »
On that one like a cat...no time even for an edit...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3613 on: July 29, 2009, 06:06:20 PM »
Sorry - searching hard for something genuinely interesting, and the first evidence of your unconscious was it...

Can't apologize for my cat-like reflexes, though -- essential to my success as a secret agent (oops...damn!)

Peter


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3614 on: July 29, 2009, 06:07:21 PM »
It's really a great slip, I have to say...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3615 on: July 29, 2009, 06:12:21 PM »
Jim,

If you need someone to handle an identity change and relocation, I know a few security experts who might be able to help you.  

Imagine. All all you did was acknowledge that if documents are going to be used rhetorically, they should be available.  Something so basic that I am amazed that others are afraid take a stand on the issue.  Yet we all know that your phone will be ringing off the hook if it isn't already and you will be strongly urged to get back in line, even though you disagree with me on almost everything else.   These jokes about you having to live or leave there are only funny because they are at least partially true, and that is pretty sad.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3616 on: July 29, 2009, 06:22:03 PM »
Wayne, Tom and Mike all know where I stand on this and just about everything...what made the fruedian slip funny (to me anyway) was the potential dual meaning of "leave here".

« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 06:52:46 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3617 on: July 29, 2009, 06:36:03 PM »
Mike
I don't know why, but for whatever reason Heilman doesn't give us any key dates. He begins with the Annual report of 1910 and then ends with constrcution beginning in the spring of 1911 and the course opening 9/1912. We are left conclude the events he desribes in between happened between 1910 and spring 1911, incuding Wilson's trip abroad. He got that wrong. He also uses Wind's quote comparing Wilson's trip to CBM's trip. We all know CBM studied those holes before designing the NGLA, and the obvious inference is Wilson did the same.  

Heilman's greatest mistakes are his multiple sins of omission. Tolhurst can be partially excused because I don't think he had the same info at his disposal (his greatest resource was Heilman's book), and he didn't know squat about golf architecture history. Heilman was clearly more competent, and had the information at his disposal but chose not to use it.

He had Wilson's 1916 account, which mentions the trip occured sometime after the NGLA visit. He would've known when the NGLA visit was from the minutes.

Tom,

I think you're being a little too harsh on Heilman.  I'm also not certain that we aren't all making broad assumptions about golf course architecture that I don't believe others made years ago.

For instance, even if he did make the connection that when Hugh Wilson said "ever good course I saw later" and recognized that his trip had to follow his visit to NGLA, I'm not sure that seeing that the NGLA visit was early March 1911 would have seemed odd to him.

After all, the course wasn't even under construction yet, and all that was determined in the next month and a half was the final routing.   There could have been plenty of time in his mind sometime after that while the course was being plowed and seeded to go abroad.

I think we make a fundamental mistake when we try equate the act of routing the golf course as wholly dependent on the idea that Wilson went abroad to get ideas for his golf holes.   Frankly, I don't think any of these early writers made that a dependency whatsoever and it clearly wasn't in this case.    

If you think about the "principles" of the great holes, or even the strategies of the template holes, almost all of them are dependent simply on generally rote bunkering strategies that define them.    We know all of that took place later...the "problems of the holes", or the "mental hazards", if you will, as they were described in the early writing.

We sit here and think about modern architecture and how everything is planned out in advance and built to spec for day one and that includes all of the dimensions and bunker placements, sizes, depths, etc...

Hell, we even can 3-D it on CAD and do simulated flyovers.

That isn't what was done here at all.   Even the hole with the Eden green, the 15th, was not an Eden hole at all, but a par four instead.   The 3rd green is not like a redan green at all, but it was a cool green on a natural plateau so a redan bunkering scheme was employed and the tee set a bit at an angle, and voila! there you had it.   We know after Wilson got back from abroad and saw the real original Alps he admitted that he still had a "lot of making" to do to have anything worthy of the original, or even worthy of the one he saw Macdonald build at NGLA prior.

So, I think we are applying our modern prism to something very different than what is done today.   This idea that he went abroad to get ideas for the golf course was not dependent on it having to have been prior to a routing of 18 tees and greens, while trying to creatively use what was already on the ground in terms of natural hazards and features at all, and I truly don't think anyone prior to our modern times would have made the assumption that it did....particularly not those documenting early accounts.    

I also think you're inferring too much into what HWWind wrote.   I think he was talking about the final product as a comparision between NGLA and Merion, and not referring to the version of 1912 Merion that he could never have seen.

Jim,

I've been trying to call for an hour now but I keep getting a message that your phone's been disconnected.   ;)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 06:43:05 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3618 on: July 29, 2009, 07:23:29 PM »
Mike, you have to make up your mind.   Last week you were accusing me of reducing Wilson's role to nothing, and claiming that after the final layout plan was finished there was really nothing left for him to design. Yet now you misrepresent the final layout plan as merely the "final routing" and you puff up Wilson's design contribution after the study trip abroad.

Which is it Mike? 
--  Did Wilson make a substantial design contribution after the trip?   Because if he did, then you cannot argue that later references to his design contribution (like Tilly's) must have only referred to what he did before the trip.
-- Or, was there nothing really for Wilson to do with the design after the trip?   If so then you cannot make the argument you just did above.   

So which way is it?   You cannot just change your position day-to-day to suit your current rhetorical needs. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3619 on: July 29, 2009, 08:14:01 PM »
From about post #3707 today and on is really shocking, laughable actually. You people are absolutely all over the place, particularly Tom MacWood. Apparently you don't really read what's been said on here and if you do you don't even come close to understanding what it means. It's easier to herd a horde of cats than to get the primary protagonists on here onto the same page or to come to any understanding on anything. And MacWood and Moriarty, with your constant and continuous insulting and denigrating of Merion's architectural historian, I would be shocked if you two ever see what you're looking for in your lifetime. If I have any influence in the matter with Merion or MCC you never will. You two are a complete disgrace! I forget who I was talking to today on the telephone about this but I mentioned that the main protagonists in perpetuating this subject on here have never belonged to a private club. That person said; "Aha, that explains a ton about all this." I couldn't agree more!

Does that sound like elitism or snobbery to some on here? It might but I certainly hope not. It's more a matter of commonsense which is essentially the bedrock upon which manners and dececeny in life and within these clubs is based on. Moriarty and MacWood sling a bunch of revisionist historical shit on the wall on this website about a prominent American club, course and its architect with the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" and then expect to be treated with open arms by these clubs, their members and friends while all the time insulting and denigrating the very person they need to be in contact with for what they want at that club??

Just unbelievable!!

Think about it GOLFCLUBALTAS.com. Think about it hard! If you do, I'm betting you will come up with something pretty important about commonsense and human nature! You, me, all of us, truly do need that if any of us are going to comprehensively research the architectural histories of any of these kinds of golf clubs!

Is there any other way? Is there a better way? If there is please tell me----I'm all ears!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3620 on: July 29, 2009, 08:33:51 PM »
From about post #3707 today and on is really shocking, laughable actually. You people are absolutely all over the place, particularly Tom MacWood. Apparently you don't really read what's been said on here and if you do you don't even come close to understanding what it means. It's easier to herd a horde of cats than to get the primary protagonists on here onto the same page or to come to any understanding on anything. And MacWood and Moriarty, with your constant and continuous insulting and denigrating of Merion's architectural historian, I would be shocked if you two ever see what you're looking for in your lifetime. If I have any influence in the matter with Merion or MCC you never will. You two are a complete disgrace! I forget who I was talking to today on the telephone about this but I mentioned that the main protagonists in perpetuating this subject on here have never belonged to a private club. That person said; "Aha, that explains a ton about all this." I couldn't agree more!

Does that sound like elitism or snobbery to some on here? It might but I certainly hope not. It's more a matter of commonsense which is essentially the bedrock upon which manners and dececeny in life and within these clubs is based on. Moriarty and MacWood sling a bunch of revisionist historical shit on the wall on this website about a prominent American club, course and its architect with the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" and then expect to be treated with open arms by these clubs, their members and friends while all the time insulting and denigrating the very person they need to be in contact with for what they want at that club??

Just unbelievable!!

Think about it GOLFCLUBALTAS.com. Think about it hard! If you do, I'm betting you will come up with something pretty important about commonsense and human nature! You, me, all of us, truly do need that if any of us are going to comprehensively research the architectural histories of any of these kinds of golf clubs!

Is there any other way? Is there a better way? If there is please tell me----I'm all ears!

For those of you who are often criticizing me for defending myself against this guy, I'm going to leave it to you guys.  Is this appropriate? Productive? If not, why don't you tell him so?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 08:38:37 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3621 on: July 29, 2009, 08:43:34 PM »
David,

Some of us have tried. No one is listening.

Maybe we need one of the resident computer geeks to write a virus that attaches itself to this thread. Anyone that opens it has their eff-ing keyboard and mouse blow their fingernails off.

Seriously.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3622 on: July 29, 2009, 09:01:24 PM »
I don't know Joe, maybe it is a matter of perspective, but it seems that the vast majority of the complaints and lectures are directed at me.  This guy says whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and why shouldn't he?   No one ever says a damn thing.  He lives in a world free of consequences, which is probably why he behaves as he does.

Are people afraid of his wrath?   That could be because he is pretty rude and boorish.  Are people so concerned about mid-Atlantic access that they close their eyes to his abhorrent behavior?   I hope not, but I really cannot imagine that anyone else could constantly get away with the garbage he throws out, except for maybe Bob Huntley, but he is far to much of a gentleman for us to ever find out.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3623 on: July 29, 2009, 09:10:38 PM »
From about post #3707 today and on is really shocking, laughable actually. You people are absolutely all over the place, particularly Tom MacWood. Apparently you don't really read what's been said on here and if you do you don't even come close to understanding what it means. It's easier to herd a horde of cats than to get the primary protagonists on here onto the same page or to come to any understanding on anything. And MacWood and Moriarty, with your constant and continuous insulting and denigrating of Merion's architectural historian, I would be shocked if you two ever see what you're looking for in your lifetime. If I have any influence in the matter with Merion or MCC you never will. You two are a complete disgrace! I forget who I was talking to today on the telephone about this but I mentioned that the main protagonists in perpetuating this subject on here have never belonged to a private club. That person said; "Aha, that explains a ton about all this." I couldn't agree more!

Does that sound like elitism or snobbery to some on here? It might but I certainly hope not. It's more a matter of commonsense which is essentially the bedrock upon which manners and dececeny in life and within these clubs is based on. Moriarty and MacWood sling a bunch of revisionist historical shit on the wall on this website about a prominent American club, course and its architect with the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" and then expect to be treated with open arms by these clubs, their members and friends while all the time insulting and denigrating the very person they need to be in contact with for what they want at that club??

Just unbelievable!!

Think about it GOLFCLUBALTAS.com. Think about it hard! If you do, I'm betting you will come up with something pretty important about commonsense and human nature! You, me, all of us, truly do need that if any of us are going to comprehensively research the architectural histories of any of these kinds of golf clubs!

Is there any other way? Is there a better way? If there is please tell me----I'm all ears!

TEP
Unless Merions architectural historian's pen name is Desmond Tolhurst or he was Tolhurst's fact checker I'm not sure how I insulted him in post #3707. To my knowledge you are the only person who has been singing the praises of Tolhurst's history.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's Early Timeline
« Reply #3624 on: July 29, 2009, 09:20:07 PM »
Tom,

I think you're being a little too harsh on Heilman.  I'm also not certain that we aren't all making broad assumptions about golf course architecture that I don't believe others made years ago.

For instance, even if he did make the connection that when Hugh Wilson said "ever good course I saw later" and recognized that his trip had to follow his visit to NGLA, I'm not sure that seeing that the NGLA visit was early March 1911 would have seemed odd to him.

After all, the course wasn't even under construction yet, and all that was determined in the next month and a half was the final routing.   There could have been plenty of time in his mind sometime after that while the course was being plowed and seeded to go abroad.

Firstly, Heilman doesn't even mention the trip to the NGLA, something Wilson emphasized in his account. Second, any way you look at it the trip came after the course was designed and constructed. He leaves the impression the trip proceeded all that, a la CBM.

I think we make a fundamental mistake when we try equate the act of routing the golf course as wholly dependent on the idea that Wilson went abroad to get ideas for his golf holes.   Frankly, I don't think any of these early writers made that a dependency whatsoever and it clearly wasn't in this case.    

I agree, I've argued that for a while. The routing process was rarely acknowledged as a vital process. It was difficult for many golfing observers and writers to conceptualize. But I don't think that has anything to do with why Heilman in 1976 presented so little details in his account. His account is very misleading. Tolhurst's account is largely based Heilman's, and look how confused that turned out.

If you think about the "principles" of the great holes, or even the strategies of the template holes, almost all of them are dependent simply on generally rote bunkering strategies that define them.    We know all of that took place later...the "problems of the holes", or the "mental hazards", if you will, as they were described in the early writing.

Heilman doesn't mention anything about great holes, again ignoring Wilson's report. What gives you the idea Heilman looked upon architecture in that way.

We sit here and think about modern architecture and how everything is planned out in advance and built to spec for day one and that includes all of the dimensions and bunker placements, sizes, depths, etc...

That is another error Heilman made, or leap if you will. He said Wilson was the principle architect of the course.

Hell, we even can 3-D it on CAD and do simulated flyovers.

That isn't what was done here at all.   Even the hole with the Eden green, the 15th, was not an Eden hole at all, but a par four instead.   The 3rd green is not like a redan green at all, but it was a cool green on a natural plateau so a redan bunkering scheme was employed and the tee set a bit at an angle, and voila! there you had it.   We know after Wilson got back from abroad and saw the real original Alps he admitted that he still had a "lot of making" to do to have anything worthy of the original, or even worthy of the one he saw Macdonald build at NGLA prior.

That is why I take Allan Wilson's account literally - he began designing when he returned.

So, I think we are applying our modern prism to something very different than what is done today.   This idea that he went abroad to get ideas for the golf course was not dependent on it having to have been prior to a routing of 18 tees and greens, while trying to creatively use what was already on the ground in terms of natural hazards and features at all, and I truly don't think anyone prior to our modern times would have made the assumption that it did....particularly not those documenting early accounts.  

I'm not sure what that has to do with Heilman's major omissions. IMO that is still no excuse for Heilman's vague account.

I also think you're inferring too much into what HWWind wrote.   I think he was talking about the final product as a comparision between NGLA and Merion, and not referring to the version of 1912 Merion that he could never have seen.

That could be, that was not how Heilman used it.



Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back