[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

I know. The last thing I was looking for was another opportunity to have someone point out another person's flaws.

I get it. You guys don't like each other, but for some reason you guys feel the need to keep reminding us.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I know. The last thing I was looking for was another opportunity to have someone point out another person's flaws."


Joe:

I know what you mean. I really wish Moriarty hadn't mentioned my great, great Auntie Gertrude. I'm not sure how many generations it'll take my family to live her down. That woman was one holy terror! She was into fox hunting galore and around 1896 she burst into MCC and proclaimed at the top of her lungs that any member of her family who played that silly new game called guff or goff in red coats was a God-damn faggot and the family should force them to change their names or be completely disinherited and sent to live in Baltimore!

[Joe Hancock]

"Tom,
I know. The last thing I was looking for was another opportunity to have someone point out another person's flaws."


Joe:

I know what you mean. I'm not sure how many generations it'll take my family to live down Auntie Gertrude. That woman was one holy terror! She was into fox hunting galore and around 1896 she burst into MCC and proclaimed at the top of her lungs that any member of her family who played that silly new game called guff or goff in red coats was a God-damn faggot and the family should force them to change their names!

So, what did your name used to be?

 

(Maybe this thread needs a good old fashioned hijack!)(or at least some interjection of humor)

Joe

[JC Jones]

I tried to end this thread....12 pages ago

[TEPaul]

"So, what did your name used to be?"


It used to be Thomas Algernon Fitzwater Benedict VI


Actually I'm related to John Paul Jones. Some of these experts on Ancestry.com on this website should research the hell out of it but John Paul Jones' real name was John Paul. I don't know what the circumstances were exactly but when he was a young man in the navy he killed someone on his ship and had to make a run for it for a time and when he returned to reestablish his career he had become John Paul Jones.

You can look it up.

But the strangest thing of all name-wise involving the deep history of the people of MCC is the incredibly brilliant and world famous abolitionist Frederick O. Douglas. You would not believe what his real name was and where he was born!!

[Joe Hancock]

I tried to end this thread....12 pages ago

This thread is bigger than you. Your wife even told me once "a thread is bigger than my husband!"

 

p.s. She thought I reminded her of one of the support cables of The Mackinaw Bridge.......

[JC Jones]

p.s. She thought I reminded her of one of the support cables of The Mackinaw Bridge.......

only older

[Joe Hancock]

p.s. She thought I reminded her of one of the support cables of The Mackinaw Bridge.......

only older

and still carrying the load.....

[JC Jones]

p.s. She thought I reminded her of one of the support cables of The Mackinaw Bridge.......

only older

and still carrying the load.....

thats because you cant find a willing partner

[TEPaul]

"p.s. She thought I reminded her of one of the support cables of The Mackinaw Bridge......."


Joe:

I'd tell you what my wife said I reminded her of when I left one of her carry-on bags on that damn sky-train that goes around the Dallas airport but this is a family website.

[Mike_Cirba]

Finally, this thread is getting good.

Drove Golf House Road this eve on my way to Bryn Mawr and yelled over saying that Tom and David were sending their love.

[TEPaul]

"Drove Golf House Road this eve on my way to Bryn Mawr and yelled over saying that Tom and David were sending their love."



MikeC:

I was snooping around over there by #15 and GHR the other day. Did you happen to see that traditional property monument stone in the ground about 130 yards from the #15 green alongside GHR and right about in straight line across from the old SW boundary of the Haverford College property?

It has a carved inscription on it that says:

"I added 33.187 yards to the west here from the existing triangle on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan after about 11 1/2 glasses of absinthe around midnight and after getting permission from Horatio Gates Lloyd on March 32th, 1911 but not before explaining it to Hugh Wilson who designed Merion East and was probably the most naturally gifted American architect as our Design and Construction Committee chairman in 1911 and 1912 and even despite attempts by that pompous ass C.B. Macdonald to infect his natural talent, and don't ever let any idiotic, revisionistic, outsider researchers ever try to claim otherwise.
Richard P. Francis, March 34th, 1910"

How are we going to explain those dates? These damn novice architects with their hi-fallutin' Ivy League educations really were a bunch of dumb ducks and silly rabbits.

[Joe Hancock]

Hey Tom,

Just a little advice; If it takes more than three attempts at making a joke work, it probably doesn't.

Be funny, but make it quick.

 

[TEPaul]

"Be funny, but make it quick."

I was as quick as possible but sometimes it takes time to DOCTOR historical evidence! It took more time than I'd hoped but I think I finally got it right.

[Mike_Cirba]

"Drove Golf House Road this eve on my way to Bryn Mawr and yelled over saying that Tom and David were sending their love."



MikeC:

I was snooping around over there by #15 and GHR the other day. Did you happen to see that traditional property monument stone in the ground about 130 yards from the #15 green alongside GHR and right about in straight line across from the old SW boundary of the Haverford College property?

It has a carved inscription on it that says:

"I added 33.187 yards to the west here from the existing triangle on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan after about 11 1/2 glasses of absinthe around midnight and after getting permission from Horatio Gates Lloyd on March 32th, 1911 but not before explaining it to Hugh Wilson who designed Merion East and was probably the most naturally gifted American architect as our Design and Construction Committee chairman in 1911 and 1912 and even despite attempts by that pompous ass C.B. Macdonald to infect his natural talent, and don't ever let any idiotic, revisionistic, outsider researchers ever try to claim otherwise.
Richard P. Francis, March 34th, 1910"

How are we going to explain those dates? These damn novice architects with their hi-fallutin' Ivy League educations really were a bunch of dumb ducks and silly rabbits.

Tom,

I thought that was you I saw jumping back into the shrubbery when you saw me barreliing up the hill, swinging wide left around the 14th green, and thinking to myself if it hadn't been for Richard Francis I could probably take have taken that original "approximate road" turn at 80mph, with a posse of stalwart Merion members giving chase screaming the damndest things about Tom and David!  

And here I had simply come bearing their most loving wishes, all the way from Columbus and LA.

I couldn't hear exactly what they were saying but I don't think they really seemed thrilled that Hugh and Alan Wilson have been basically called a couple of dumb-ass liars.   They didn't seem to mind as much that Tillinghast was called a liar too, cuz one blueblood was chortling that Tilly had slept with his grandmom and was the source of some family scandal, but I didn't get all the details as I zoomed past.

All I can say is thank the Lawd that they didn't build the Lawn Tennis courts out past College Avenue or they would have probably caught me slowing to a crawl to make that hard right turn.   As it was, i almost went across the Hall's front lawn, but thankfully my 2002 Toyota Solara with 250,000 miles on it must have just looked sort of liberal Recession-era Main Line chic because I fit right in from there and blended into the Haverford Avenue Saturday afternoon scenery.

[Tom MacWood]

At some point I believe I typed, posted and provided Alan WIlson's five page 1926 letter on the creation of Merion East and West, requested of him by MCC's historian and 35 year treasurer (and sometimes secretary) William Philler. I don't know how to use the search engine on here very well. Could someone find it for me or help me find it?

Moriarty, Cirba, MacWood etc, instead of spending page after page just going after each other or me let's put Alan Wilson's letter up here again and let it and what it says stand on its own.

Since you wanted the letter to stand on its own how do you read this part?

"The land for the East Course was found in 1910 and as a first step, Mr. Wilson was sent abroad to study the famous links in Scotland and England. On his return the plan was gradually evolved and while largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the Committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture of this and the West Course."

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Wow...I can't believe how badly those foreign born pros were thought of in terms of their architecture after the creations of NGLA and MerionB

I guess if Myopia and Garden City hadn't already pointed out the correct way to do things, Mac's and Wilson's creations drove the final nail in that coffin!

"You may as well ask a golf professional to design a cathedral.".  Man, what a zinger from Max Behr!!

Speaking of final nails in coffins, there is no way that Behr would have wrote that or Merion would have corrected himimmediately if there was a chance in a zillion that Barker had even a smidgeon of responsibility for either the routing or hole designs at Merion.

These guys didn't just eschew this earlier primitive method of design; they openly ridiculed it!!

Even 15 years later Alan Wilson points out clearly that no architect was involved...that's how deeply rooted was their distaste for the slam bam methods of the early British pros.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I'm not sure I would say that the likes of those well known "amateur/sportsmen" architects of that early era such as Leeds, Emmet, the Fownes, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump thought very little of those multi-tasking journeymen immigrant Scottish and English professional part-time architects, I just think they all recognized men like that just did not have the opportunity and they particularly did not have the time (unless they actually worked at the particular club) to do anything any good in the first couple of decades of golf in America (early 1890s to the mid-teens) and that they had only done things up until that point that were distinctly unimpressive. They were probably the ones about whose products and projects Macdonald said in 1906, "It makes the very soul of golf shriek."

But in fairness to them they probably weren't even around most projects long enough because they were never really paid enough to be responsible for some of the truly unimpressive architectural aesthetics and details (done by others) for which they got blamed.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

True enuff...

They rejected the methods if not the men, but that Behr article hits it out of the park as a summary of many fundamental truths that were being learned at that time.

Bottom line is that there is no way that guys who thought like this were going to go with the old, disproven model.

I can imagine them receiving Barker's rough pencil sketch from Connell and collectively thinking, WTF?!?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

True enuff...

They rejected the methods if not the men..."



MikeC:


I think so. In those agronomy letters there was some man in the 1920s who Piper and Oakley and Alan Wilson were having to deal with about whom Alan essentially said---pay no attention to him and just file his letter but he also added about the man that he could be trouble and like Max Behr was never really happy unless he was embroiled in the middle of some controversy!  

But I have felt for many years it was not just the products from those fast-moving multi-tasking immigrant Scottish/English part-time professional architects of that early era (or that they necessarily lacked innate talent) it was their methods which were that way basically because they did not have the opportunity or time (and they weren't paid for it) that the best of the Amateur/sportsmen architects had and that is one of the reasons the latter group took so much time with their special projects and basically pioneered that method and modus operandi of taking so much time. At least that is the primary distinction I'm going to make in an upcoming article.

From everything I can see from MCC's records that club never even thought about using a man like Barker for their project at Ardmore. I think MCC always intended to go about it the way their friends C.B. and Whigam were going about it at that time with NGLA and that is precisely why they called on M/W to come down seemingly days after the real estate developer offered them his correspondence with Barker that the site was at least adequate to put a really good course on like a Myopia which was perhaps the most respected course and architecture in America at that time, and from perhaps the original American "amateur/sportsman" architect, Herbert C. Leeds.

I believe Macdonald should get a great deal of credit for so publicly promoting the particular method he used with NGLA---"amateur/sportsmen" architects willing to devote so much time to their special projects but I also believe history should probably give Herbet Leeds just as much credit as Macdonald for beginning or perhaps even pioneering that particular time invested "amateur/sportsman" architect method that eventually created great architecture a good decade before Macdonald did at NGLA.

The proof of it was what Leeds had done was certainly not lost on Macdonald in 1906 as he began NGLA a good ten years after Leeds began at Myopia.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Isn't that the real irony and crux of the matter here?

Behr makes clear that Mac took months to get his routing right at NGLA yet these guys are arguing that either Mac or Barker routed Merion in less than a day.

.

[DMoriarty]

And I thought it was windy at the Open.

Mike your disingenuous presentation of the facts is beyond old.  The process at NGLA is as follows:
1.  Macdonald and Whigam went over the land for a couple of days (on horseback) and determined where the holes would be located.  This was a rough routing. 
2.  Based on their rough routing, they optioned the land in a manner that allowed them to adjust the boundaries if necessary.
3.   Working off of the rough routing, they did a more detailed lay out plan.
 plan.
4.  Once the more detailed layout plan was finished they finalized the purchase.

The initial routing took two days.  For you to continue to misrepresent what happened there is outrageous.   Which is it Mike?  Are you not mentally capable of understanding this stuff?  Or are you shamelessly misrepresenting this stuff for rhetorical gain?

Same goes for this nonsense about m&w only doing a one day routing.  Have you ever heard of telephones, maps, and the mail?  M&W indicate that they couldn't place the holes without a contour map and The men of MCC would have been fools to not have sent him one.   That is how cbm worked.  Off of plans.

So which is it, are you this mentally challenged or is it a complete unwillingness to deal with this stuff honestly?  I hope the former.  Intelligence is somewhat beyond one's control, but repeated dishonesty is unforgivable.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Did you even read the Max Behr article?

Don't tell us the Macdonald myth of he and Whigham on horseback and chaps, dreamy as it sounds. 

We know from Joe Bausch's findings that such romantic nonsense was most assuredly not the case, and the process took months before a shovel was turned.

I thought you were the guy who says he doesnt buy old myths?

This one is so bad it's ridiculous, asking us to believe the e day routing was done mid-1906 but the course didn't even open soft until 1910.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

Isn't that the real irony and crux of the matter here?"


I think so, Mike. I have no idea what this fellow just above is talking about nor have I ever known except to continue to be argumentative for no purpose other than for the sake of argumentativeness alone. As I've always said, my suggestion would be for him to stop endlessly parsing the meaning of words and telling all of us his interpretation of them is the only one and get out in the field for a couple of months or weeks or at least days and learn something about the way these things happen in golf course  architecture, particularly routing, both back then and even today. All I hear and see on every post from him is Wayne and I are withholding source matereial, I'm doctoring or recanting something, and you're being disingenuous!

 BLAH, blah, Blah, BLAH!

Sounds to me more like a freshman college law class rather than a discussion on the accurate evolution and history of golf course architecture.

[DMoriarty]

  

David,

Did you even read the Max Behr article?

Mike,  I have read the Behr article many times.  If I recall correctly, I brought it to your attention a few years ago, and since then it is has been in your regular rotation of articles you repeatedly post and then misrepresent.    I am always amazed that you fail to notice that the gist of the article is to praise CBM for his his tremendous contribution to the game and that it only mentions Wilson and Leeds in in passing.  Which courses do you suppose Behr was thinking of when he wrote "From Long Island to Saint Louis there were courses that bear the imprint of Mr. C. B. Macdonald and the National."  

And what do you suppose he had in mind with this?  "And anyone interested in laying out a new course can surely afford a journey to the National where he can get [an] ocular demonstration of what should be done."  I've read the article many times, but don't recall him referring anyone to Merion.  Did you leave that part out?  

As for your claim about what Behr wrote about the routing, you are delusional.  Please point out the specific language where Behr suggests the initial routing took months?    I don't know why I ask, because you obviously cannot.    Here is the language:

"The main outlines of the National were obvious at first glance (provided on knew what he was aiming at) but the details took months to work out.'  

Two steps:  
1.  The rough routing:  the main outines of the National were obvious at first glance . . .
2.   The detailed plan:  the details took months to work out.  

That is what CBM wrote.  That is what HJW wrote.  That is what the articles you quoted on the other thread wrote.  And it is what MAX BEHR WROTE.  It is not that difficult Mike.

Still don't get it?  In April 1915 in the same column, the author (presumably Behr) wrote about the importance of figuring out the course first before the land was purchased (my emphasis.)  

"The ideal method was followed at the National. First the right sort of territory was found. Then the course was roughly sketched out using all the best features of the landscape. Then enough land (about 205 acres) was bought to embrace all the necessary features. And in actually laying out the course (which really laid itself out to a large extent) no concession was made to economy in the use of land. Even so a considerable part of the 205 acres is not touched by the course and is available for other purposes. And there you have the solution of the whole business."

Roughly sketched out.   Not months of planning and laying out the details.  A rough sketch.

Don't tell us the Macdonald myth of he and Whigham on horseback and chaps, dreamy as it sounds.  

I am tired of your bullshit insults directed at these two Mike.  Imagine your reaction if I treated your the Wilson's like this.  Imagine TEPaul's threats if I did that!  Behr's account, HJW's account, CBM's account, the various newspaper accounts?  All of them say the same thing.  You are either unwilling or incapable of understanding that, but either way you should really refrain from trashing these men as it only makes you look even more pathetic.

We know from Joe Bausch's findings that such romantic nonsense was most assuredly not the case, and the process took months before a shovel was turned.

See answer above.  Review that thread.  Did you forget that even you had to ultimately abandon your position.  

And Joe Bausch just provided the articles.  Don't degrade him by sticking him with your foolish ideas.  Surely he has too much dignity to stand behind garbage that is even discredited by the documents on which it supposedly relies.  

I thought you were the guy who says he doesnt buy old myths?  

This one is so bad it's ridiculous, asking us to believe the e day routing was done mid-1906 but the course didn't even open soft until 1910.

I don't know whether to pity you for your apparent cognitive shortcomings or or shun you for for your dishonesty and deceit.    

I AM NOT ASKING YOU TO BELIEVE ANYTHING.  I AM STATING THE FACTS, ACCORDING TO CBM, HJW, AND EVEN BEHR!
-  Can you comprehend that there is difference between a rough routing and a detailed layout plan?  
-  Are you capable of understanding that one might first do a rough plan, and then work out the details over time?
-  Can you comprehend that there is no necessary correlation between the time it takes to do a rough routing and the time it takes to finish laying out and building the course?

This is not that complicated Mike.  
1.  They found generally suitable land.
2.  They did a rough routing and secured the land.
3.  They worked out a more detailed lay out plan and laid out and built the course.  

This was the pattern followed at NGLA.   All accounts say so.  Who the hell are you to contradict CBM, JHW, Behr, and even the articles Joe Bausch found.  

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