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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2850 on: July 15, 2009, 10:33:19 PM »
. . .


. . .

Stupid stupid me.  I was mistakenly looking for articles from around 1910/1911 wherein an "expert" was involved in creating a golf course.

I should been looking for 1896 articles where someone not called an "expert" has nothing to do with creating a golf course.  

_______________________

Sadly, I doubt I will ever be able to come up with an abCIRBAcon that will come close to fully capturing the absolute absurdity of Mike's line of argument.

_______________

Come on guys, seriously, is this an elaborate ruse?  Are you guys all on the phone with Mike telling him to push this asinine nonsense further and further?   Daring him to write something even more ridiculous with each successive post?  

Shivas,  you bastard, come clean already!   I know you must be behind this!  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:37:33 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2851 on: July 15, 2009, 10:34:31 PM »
The following articles are from May, 1913;





I have to admit that you guys are a riot.

Please let us know when you find a single person on GCA, much less any of the clubs involved who is in agreement with your specious, fallacious theories.


And, who was the other "golf expert" with Hugh Wilson that day in May 1913?

None other than one A.H. (Ab) Smith, whose design work to date?

Well, as head of the Green Committee at Huntingdon Valley, he had added quite a few bunkers to his home course.



« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:47:43 PM by MCirba »

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2852 on: July 15, 2009, 10:43:00 PM »
As it appears this thread still has miles to go before it sleeps, may I respectfully request that when posting images of news articles to please indicate the date if possible. This has been a distraction for several days
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2853 on: July 15, 2009, 10:49:12 PM »
As it appears this thread still has miles to go before it sleeps, may I respectfully request that when posting images of news articles to please indicate the date if possible. This has been a distraction for several days

John,

Both articles above are from May 1913.

The Merion East course had opened in the fall of 1912, and the turning of the soil for what David and Tom would tell you was Hugh Wilson's first design, Merion West, had only just begun.

Merion West opened Memorial Day, 1914.

Yet, here again, clear as a bell, Hugh Wilson is called an expert.


As you can see, whenever Tom and David have to actually face indisputable facts their specious theories cannot address, they turn to insults like "fool", and "asinine nonsense".

It's a repeating, regrettable pattern, but despite these insults, I take solace that I haven't seen a single person here who's opinion I respect actually buys into their theories.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:53:22 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2854 on: July 15, 2009, 10:55:33 PM »
"TEP
Hugh Wilson himself admitted he wasn't an expert. He said that the knowledge he and the rest of the committee had in construction and green-keeping was that of an average club member."


Tom:

I know he did. You don't have to tell me that---we've known that ever since we found all those agronomy letters that just came into the USGA about six or sevevn years ago. Richard Francis also said the only thing he contributed was that land swap idea he described in that 1950 story. Do you believe that too?  ;)

Apparently you don't understand the modesty or the inclination to be modest of some of those men back then any better than you do their culture or the way they looked at the architecture of those times and the men who did it and were asked to do it.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:57:22 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2855 on: July 15, 2009, 10:59:38 PM »
"TEP
Hugh Wilson himself admitted he wasn't an expert. He said that the knowledge he and the rest of the committee had in construction and green-keeping was that of an average club member."

Tom:

I know he did. You don't have to tell me that---we've known that ever since we found all those agronomy letters that just came into the USGA about six or sevevn years ago. Richard Francis also said the only thing he contributed was that land swap he described in that 1950 story. Do you believe that too?  ;)

Apparently you don't understand the modesty of some of those men back then any better than you do their culture or the way they looked at the architecture of those times and the men who did it and were asked to do it.


Tom,

The ironically funny thing about that self-effacing statement of Hugh Wilson's was that it demonstrably untrue.

Each of these men had almost fifteen years of golf experience at high levels, including Rodman Griscom who was the first Green Committee chairman of Merion back in 1896 and Hugh Wilson himself had served on the Green Commiteee at Princeton while they were opening their new course.

To say that Tom and David have no understanding at all of what understated mores were about at that time is as understated a statement as I can make.

By the way, Tom...perhaps you can tell me...

If Herbert Barker was one of the Top Designers of golf courses in the country, why in May of 1911 did he advertise that he was simply an expert at placing wooden stakes "on the ground", as in "laying out" golf courses?   ::)

« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:07:44 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2856 on: July 15, 2009, 11:05:54 PM »
Quote
Please let us know when you find a single person on GCA who is in agreement with your theories.


Mike, your constant opposition has not stopped me from being right on just about all of our disagreements settled thus far.  

Remember your comical theatrics about the overseas trip, and your bevy round-the-world in 80 days Hugh Wilsons? Wasn't there a Hugo Wilson from Argentina somewhere in there?  Remember your positions on the Redan and the Alps holes at Merion?  Remember your position on the timing of the NGLA meeting?  Remember your claims that if anyone had more to do with the design at Merion it was Pickering?  Remember your asinine assertions that everything took place in 1909-1910?  Remember how you insisted that the 1910 reference in the Alan Wilson article just had to be correct?  Remember your absurd speculations about Lloyd's early involvement?   Remember your speculation that Merion probably didn't even invite CBM, but rather he just showed up and spouted off?  Remember how you long tried to pass of the NGLA meeting as nothing but a meeting with a glorified travel agent?   Remember how you insisted that there was no way they were discussing the layout of Merion East at NGLA?  Remember how you dismissed all of Hugh Wilson's praise of CBM as merely being polite?  Remember how you insisted that before 1910, hundreds of clubbies had not only planned their own courses, but that they were considered experts at doing so merely because they were good golfers?   That is just off the top of my head, Mike.  I haven't really even thought about it or looked into it, but I'll bet you could fill three or four of these never-ending threads where your positions have turned out to be comically wrong.  

And that is not even getting into all the times you and TEPaul  have claimed all the issues absolutely settled and proven beyond any reasonable doubt.   You must have done this at least a dozen times, but my favorite of these was the one where some members decided to give Hugh Wilson a dinner for all his hard work, and you took the letter about the dinner as absolute and irrefutable proof that Hugh Wilson must have designed the course!

In short Mike.  Your disagreement is a good thing for me.  You and the usual suspects around here are the perfect contrarian indicators, even better than the guy across the street with a Maserati but no garage to park it in.  

When you guys agree with me, I am almost certain I have gone off the right track.  And visa versa.

But don't feel bad, Mike, others such as TEPaul and just about everyone else was right there with you.  It is just that your theatrics and the outrageous of your positions possess a certain jena se qua of absurdity that none other can match.  

Congratulations on that at least.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:12:51 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2857 on: July 15, 2009, 11:11:36 PM »
I will say it again, if these two men continuously plying all this tortured logic about Merion's history want to resolve this they will begin to discuss what they think is wrong with Merion's history books.

Something tells me they didn't know six years ago what those books actually say, including about Macdonald's contribution, and they probably still don't know.

Come on guys, if you know what those history books say about that then show us you do by quoting it all on here and if you didn't know then and don't know now, just admit it for God's Sake.

If you two keep avoiding this then how in the world can you possibly be accusing any of us of some kind of ruse?  ;)

Tom MacWood, why don't you hurry on over to Hurzdan's library, find the Merion history books, copy the appropriate pages and email it to Moriarty so he can save some kind of face by sometime tomorrow a.m.

I talked to Mike H the other day about something else. Maybe I should call him back and ask him if he even has Merion's history books in his library because if he doesn't I think you two guys are going to have some Merion omlette on your faces!

Man, you two guys are a trip. It really is comical.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:13:24 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2858 on: July 15, 2009, 11:12:30 PM »
David,

Talk to the evidence.

At times, I've been wrong and admittedly so, but as more and more evidence rolls in over time, it speaks more tellingly and indisputably than I can in simply presenting it.

Tell us why Hugh Wilson was called an expert before you believe any of his golf courses were open for play, much less viewing.

It's hard, physical evidence.

Why are you avoiding it?

Tell us why HH Barker advertised that he made a specialty of "Laying Out courses", when you contend at the time that meant simply constructing the golf course "on the ground"?

It's hard, physical evidence.

Please tell us why he would brag about placing stakes on the ground to someone else's plans as you tell us it meant when scores of accounts including his own and Richard Francis's credited Hugh Wilson and his Committee with laying out Merion...

« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:23:20 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2859 on: July 15, 2009, 11:17:03 PM »




Mike
You're right, the advertisement clearly shows he wasn't one of the top designers in the country.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2860 on: July 15, 2009, 11:22:00 PM »
Tom,

"While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land. Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan. After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course."

"In so doing, Wilson was not abruptly changing the topic to golf course design. To the contrary, Wilson was discussing the construction of the course, and was being quite literal. He was charged with laying out the course on the ground. According to Oxford English Dictionary, to “lay out” means to “construct or arrange (buildings or gardens) according to a plan.” This was precisely how Wilson used the phrase. “Our problem was to lay out the course, build, and seed eighteen greens and fifteen fairways.’ The committee had to arrange and build the holes on the ground according to plan, and Macdonald and Whigham gave them a good start in understanding how to do so." - David Moriarty
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:25:43 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2861 on: July 15, 2009, 11:23:24 PM »
Mike
Please tell me what Wilson had in common with Macdonald, Barker, Patterson, Wylde and Beale, the well known experts involved at Merion. What were his comparable qualifications?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2862 on: July 15, 2009, 11:33:08 PM »
Mike
Please tell me what Wilson had in common with Macdonald, Barker, Patterson, Wylde and Beale, the well known experts involved at Merion. What were his comparable qualifications?

Tom,

ALL of the best courses in the US at that time had been designed by amateurs, previously unknown for their architectural talents.

Whether Leeds at Myopia, Emmett and then Travis at Garden City, or Macdonald and his committtee at NGLA, what they accomplished was far and away superior to anything the professional "experts" had designed or brought to fruition.   Other works like Fownes at Oakmont, and Crump at Pine Valley were just getting started.   Of professional designs, only the work Donald Ross had done at Pinehurst was beginning to gain acclaim.

Each of those amateurs were fine players, and at that time, being an expert golfer in terms of playing skill was considered to be the highest qualification for design acumen.

Merion clearly picked five of their very top golfers out of 300 or so members and charged them with designing a first-class course, after first having the land reviewed by Macdonald and Whigam, and then utilizing them for helpful advice and assitance along the way.

Who exactly were the other golf experts to choose from in 1910?   The history and historical reputation of his courses shows that Barker is a stretch of Reed Richardsonian proportions.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2863 on: July 15, 2009, 11:35:36 PM »
What did Wilson have in common with Macdonald, Emmet, Travis and Leeds? What were their comparable qualifications, in depth if you would?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:38:01 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2864 on: July 15, 2009, 11:40:47 PM »
We have just got to have some levity on here, particularly when Moriarty keeps claiming the more we prove him and his essay wrong the more he's convinced he's right.

Here's some good levity on this right from Merion itself right after that essay got posted on here. As I've explained on here a whole bunch of people, particularly the people who run the club heard this essay was coming out revealing some new information Merion never knew about regarding Macdonald had a larger part in the architecture of their course than they ever knew. Almost to a man they were really excited about finding out about the new information. Then they all read the essay and to a man their reaction was sort of like: "Who is this person who wrote that and what kind of tortured logic is that anyway?"

Believe me it wasn't all that easy for us to try to explain it to them since we had sort of built it and Golfclubatlas.com up as some really good researchers and the like. Well, at least Moriarty claimed he had all this new information and were we ready and able to handle it? ;)

Anyway, about a week after the article came out Mark Parsinen and a group of guys who did Castle Stuart came to Merion with Gil and Wayne hosted them. There were two foursomes and since Mark Parsinen and I were hurt or didn't want to play we walked around the whole course behind the second group just talking architecture.

For some reason there was a holdup on #17 tee and the group of Merion players who were behind us came off #16 green and up to our two groups. By that time the Merion East super was there with us. Anyway, one of the Merion group behind us came up and said to me: "You're Tom Paul, aren't you?" I said: "Yes, I am" and he said: "Well, did you happen to see C.B. Macdonald's routing for Merion East under that rock in the quarry on #16, because I just did?"

All of us fell out laughing. That's probably pretty representative of the way Merion itself looks at this and that is why it really does deserve that kind of levity!

Does this destroy Moriarty's credibility and reputation, in his opinion? Well, I for one sure hope not. I think he should just say: "Well, at least I got a God-damned good laugh out of Merion with my essay. Oh, I'm sorry, I guess the Hollywood vernacular he would prefer to have us use for his essay is "my WORK."  ::)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:44:47 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2865 on: July 15, 2009, 11:42:19 PM »
The better question is what did Macdonald, Emmet, Travis and Leeds have in common, and what were Wilson's comparable qualifications?


TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2866 on: July 16, 2009, 12:04:05 AM »
 :-*
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 12:27:49 AM by TEPaul »

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2867 on: July 16, 2009, 12:11:05 AM »
We have been through the looking glass and back again.  :P

The adminstrator's of this site are now long over-due in issuing a verdict on all the evidence that has been posited.




Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2868 on: July 16, 2009, 12:26:55 AM »
"The better question is what did Macdonald, Emmet, Travis and Leeds have in common, and what were Wilson's comparable qualifications?"


Excellent question Tom:

That is actually the question and theme for my article for the 2009 Walker Cup progam entitled "Hugh I. Wilson and the amateur/sportsman architect."

"In common" I'm calling their "commonalities" and I'm going with:

Each one of them and my coterie or group of those amateur/sportsmen architects are, in chronological order of their special projects, Leeds, Emmet (alternating with Travis), the Fownses, Macdonald, Wilson and Crump, had in common that they all took years and sometimes decades with their special projects which all became world famous and respected architecture both back then and today; all of them were members or even founders of the clubs of those special projects that became famous; none of them took remuneration for their time and efforts until the "architect exception" to the amateur status rules was essentially articulated and then created and even then most of them didn't; and that they were all very much imbued in those early days with the "amateur/sportsman" ethos (nonprofessionalism in all things golf). But perhaps the most interesting point of all I'd like to make is that their fascinating era came to a distinct end at a particular point and there is a very good and identifiable historic architectural reason for it and another one of those special amateur/sportsman architect projects that became famous as theirs did would never be begun again (after around the end to WW1) with the possible really interesting exception of Marion Hollins and The Woman's National in 1924.

The additionally interesting point is that in perhaps the majority of cases of those special projects and architects mentioned they were essentially their first efforts in golf course architecture!



One can not fully appreciate what is written above if they are not familiar with these times. Read some biographies from this time, and the stories of how people lived then; how they thought about things: these were post-enlightenment men who were not even remotely influenced by the scepticism that stultified progressive men from daring to do the impossible after the first world war. These men were possessed by a kind of fearlessness that would have laughed in the face of being written off as novice or un-expert.

And most of them smoked too.

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2869 on: July 16, 2009, 12:35:48 AM »
Bradley:

Nice remarks there; very nice and historically thoughtful. While talking to Jeff Brauer at length not long ago about those amateur/sportsmen architects of that time he said something that really struck me about how and why they may've been able to do some of the things they did even early on without the kind of experience some today think is essential. He said he thought that perhaps compared to some or even most architects those particular guys mentioned back then had what he called "a lack of self consciousness about their architecture."

I really like that thought and if you're anything like me the more you think about it the more it will grow on you and the more sense it will probably make about them and the way they were with the times they lived in when golf and architecture in America was so young.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2870 on: July 16, 2009, 12:47:31 AM »
We have been through the looking glass and back again.  :P

The adminstrator's of this site are now long over-due in issuing a verdict on all the evidence that has been posited.






Bradley,

Which administrator's did you have in mind?  What leads you to believe that they are at all interested in being judge and jury to this little dispute?  Or, that there will ever be a concluding verdict by anyone, that everybody will agree with?


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2871 on: July 16, 2009, 12:48:18 AM »
John Collum,

If that latest episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Pompous didn't answer your questions, I suggest we turn back to the actual source material to try and address them.  From Whigham's Evangalist of Golf, as reprinted in Bahto's excellent book of the same name:

"Clubs all over the country asked Macdonald to remodel their courses.  Since he was every inch an amateur, golf architecture for him was very much a labor of love, and it was quite impossible for him to do all that was asked him.  So he used to send Seth Raynor to do the groundwork, and he himself corrected the plans."

While obviously not directly referring to Merion, this provides a good explanation of CBM's general approach for his courses with which he was not directing supervising things.   The primary difference with Merion was that CBM was working with Wilson and his Committee, rather than with Raynor.   Ironically, CBM's directinvolvement at Merion was apparently more extensive than at some of his courses he designed and built with Raynor.   CBM did not just work on the "plans" at Merion, he helped choose the land, he spent two days at NGLA teaching Wison how to lay out the course, and he went to Merion and determined the final routing!  

Additionally, the reference to correcting the plans ought to help put to rest this absurd notion that CBM had to have actually been present at Merion in order to have been helping plan it.

Hope this helps.  
That is interesting. I was not aware how McDonald generally went about his course design/building

John, one word of caution, this isn't the way he designed all his courses.  It wasn't the way he created NGLA for example, or to my understand was it the way he created Mid-Ocean.  I understand Whigham to be saying that as his confidence in Raynor grew and the demands on CBM increased, CBM became less directly involved.  Lido was later, but like NGLA this was one he apparently took a special interest in.  He had a house down there and spent time down there and it seems like he was more involved.  One interesting point about CBM's involvement in Merion was that it came very closely on the heels of NGLA, and perhaps this (along with who ran Merion) may have given Merion an edge or inside track on getting as much of CBM's time as they did.    

It is ironic that he may have had more involvement at Merion than at some of the courses for which he is sometimes credited.  
________________

I made a crack in my last post about Lifestyles of the Rich and Pompous.   While these men were mostly all well-off, just so were clear, I was not referring CBM, HJW, or anyone involved at Merion or NGLA as pompous.   My understanding is that most of these these were hard working, interesting, and admirable men.    

__________________________________




If Herbert Barker was one of the Top Designers of golf courses in the country, why in May of 1911 did he advertise that he was simply an expert at placing wooden stakes "on the ground", as in "laying out" golf courses?   ::)

I'll be frank, Mike.  This is yet another of these posts that leads me to use words like asinine and nonsense.

How many times will you blatantly misrepresent my understanding of how the phrase "to lay out" was used and understood.  
-- Are you actually incapable of comprehending and remembering how I think they used the phrase?
-- Or art you so intellectually dishonest that you will misrepresent my position time and time again to suit your rhetorical purposes, despite knowing better?    

Given the number of times I have explained my position, and given the number of times you have blatantly disregarded my position and continued with your over simplistic caricatures, I think these are the only two viable possibilities.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 01:29:30 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2872 on: July 16, 2009, 12:52:11 AM »
Tom,

What I actually meant to say was that it was "before" WWI that the progressive post-enlightenment men were unconscious of their expertise. These were men who were schooled in the trivium; they had terrible parents who expected them to learn how to ride horses and sail boats before they were even teenagers. They weren't even afraid of dressing in white poplin suits with matching bowlers.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2873 on: July 16, 2009, 12:55:22 AM »
We have been through the looking glass and back again.  :P

The adminstrator's of this site are now long over-due in issuing a verdict on all the evidence that has been posited.






Bradley,

Which administrator's did you have in mind?  What leads you to believe that they are at all interested in being judge and jury to this little dispute?  Or, that there will ever be a concluding verdict by anyone, that everybody will agree with?



Bryan,

I am thinking of the same administrators who want to be welcome at the great clubs in America, to profile. Let me ask you Bryan, if you were a member at one of these clubs, would you welcome these men to your club after what Merion has endured here?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2874 on: July 16, 2009, 01:06:38 AM »
On principle I'm out of here until Ran issues a verdict.  :'(

I hope others join me.