News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2525 on: July 10, 2009, 07:56:40 AM »
Tom.

Virtually all of those tasks need to be done on the punch list of every new golf course project.  Also, do you really believe Wilson, Lloyd, Griscom, et al did this work themselves??  As David mentioned, he didn't even send the soil samples; he had someone else do it.

To claim that administering these mundane tasks was responsible for his immediate fame, acclaim, and assignment on huge architectural projects like Seaview by financial titans like Geist immediately following the opening of Merion East.

That's why I asked David to explain to us precisely what was involved in his tortured definition of "laying out the course" on the ground and I still have no idea what the hell he's talking about.  We know Lloyd and Wilson weren't out there with a shovel and bucket, we know they brought in Pickering as construction foreman...perhaps you can tell us what you think laying out the course involved in terms of things Wilson and crew actually did.

So far, all I see from DM4 account is picking seed, deciding how much manure and lime the men should spread, and following Macdonald's orders, although about what he's never clear.

I also find it peculiar that all he writes about to and for an agronomic expert is agronomy...that to me is clear proof he had no design role.   :P ::)

Maybe there is more to this new definition of laying out a course in David's New English Dictionary than I'm understanding.  Since you seem to be on the same page with this new dialect perhaps you can help me translate.  ;)

What precisely did Wilson and Co do "on the ground"?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 02:16:57 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2526 on: July 10, 2009, 08:29:08 AM »
Mike
Did Wilson have a day job when the course was being built or was he on a sabbatical?

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2527 on: July 10, 2009, 09:17:53 AM »
Was Wilson the club champion at MCC?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2528 on: July 10, 2009, 09:50:01 AM »
Tom.

Virtually all of those tasks need to be done on the punch list of every new golf course project.  Also, do you really believe Wilson, Lloud, Griscom, et al did this work themselves??  As David mentioned, he didn't even send the soil samples; he had someone else do it.

The letters show Wilson was directly involved in every one of the tasks, not just directly involved, it appears he took direct repsonsibility. I have not seen any evidence that Griscom, Lloyd, et. al. did anything.

To claim that administering these mundane tasks was responsible for his immediate fame, acclaim, and assignment on huge architectural projects like Seaview by financial titans like Geist immediately following the opening of Merion East.

Immediate fame? Please explain. In his letter to Oakley Wilson said he was called in at Seaview because the locals Geist had hired were making a mess of it. Do you know what the story is there?

That's why I asked David to explain to us precisely what was involved in his tortured definition of "laying out the course" on the ground and I still have no idea what the hell he's talking about.  We know Lloyd and Wilson weren't out there with a shovel and bucket, we know they brought in Pickering as construction foreman...perhaps you can tell us what you think laying out the course involved in terms of things Wilson and crew actually did.

In your research have you ever come across the double meaning of the term 'laying out'? It often refers to the process of routing a course, but it also can refer to the pocess of building a golf course.

So far, all I see from DM4 account is picking seed, deciding how much manure and lime the men should spread, and following Macdonald's orders, although about what he's never clear.

I also find it peculiar that all he writes about to and for an agronomic expert is agronomy...that to me is clear prrof he had no design role.

Didn't Wilson write in 1916 account that Macdonald taught him the proper priniples of how to buid those famous replica holes?

Maybe there is more to this new definition of laying out a course in David's New English Dictionary than I'm understanding.  Since you seem to be on the same page with this new dialect perhapa you can help me translate.  ;)

What precisely did Wilson and Co do "on the ground"?

It appears to me he oversaw construction and made all the decisions relating to the constuction of the course.

Do you know if Wilson was working a day job at the time?

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:08:20 AM by Tom MacWood »

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2529 on: July 10, 2009, 09:51:07 AM »
Wasn't Wilson a partner in an insurance business with his brother Alan?  

Another question....Does anyone know whether MacDonald and/or Whigam attended the 1916 U. S. Am?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2530 on: July 10, 2009, 09:59:12 AM »
Was Wilson the club champion at MCC?

I don't believe Wilson was ever the club champion. I would describe Wilson as a good golfer, but not among the better golfers in the city.

I believe the best golfer at Merion was Howard Perrin, who ironically was not involved, though he was heavily involved with Pine Valley. There is a logical explanation, Perrin had been a long time member at Phila CC (a rival club) and had only relatively recently relocated to MCC. I suspect he was conisdered somewhat of an outsider at the time. Crump was also from Phila CC if I'm not mistaken.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2531 on: July 10, 2009, 10:13:36 AM »
JC,

No, he was club champion years prior at Belmont, which became Aronimink.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2532 on: July 10, 2009, 10:23:56 AM »
Tom,

If Macdonald and Whigham designed the course in a day's visit in June 1910, which is the only day they were onsite prior to the day the final routing was decided 10 months later as David contends,

or HH Barker routed the course in June 1910 in a single day as you contend, now that we know Cuyler referred to a golf course in Nov 1910, so according to your prior logic there must have been a golf course by then, and not after December 1st when Barker left to go to Atlanta,

and we also know I was able to whup both their butts by creating a routing on the Johnson Farm in 2 hours flat, ;)

Than, I'm not sure how Wilson having a day job precluded his designing the course with his committee, particularly with having the benefit of M+Ws advice.

What could it take a novice...2 days?   :P ;D

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 10:53:04 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2533 on: July 10, 2009, 10:29:23 AM »
Wasn't Wilson a partner in an insurance business with his brother Alan?  

Another question....Does anyone know whether MacDonald and/or Whigam attended the 1916 U. S. Am?

I knew Wilson was in the insurance business but I was wondering if he took a leave of abscence. Maybe Mike knows.

I don't know if M&W attended or not; they were not entered.

Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2534 on: July 10, 2009, 10:37:32 AM »
Was Wilson the club champion at MCC?

John

I'm sure somebody else can tell us that, as it is a matter of fact.

What is known is that he was was a leading collegiate golfer at Princeton around the turn of the century and chosen as one of 12 elite golfers for the Philadelphia team which played the New York team in 1903.  Perrin and Tillinghast were on his side and Macdonald and Emmet on the other.  In the NYT article on the event Wilson was singled out for praise.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9904E4D71439E433A25752C0A9679D946297D6CF&scp=2&sq=%22H.+I.+Wilson%22+golf&st=p

It appears that he didn't play that much from 1903-1911, posssible due to having to build a career and help raise and support a family while in his 20's.  Whatever, from the written record, he was a seriously good golfer.

Rich

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2535 on: July 10, 2009, 11:18:59 AM »
Was Wilson the club champion at MCC?

John

I'm sure somebody else can tell us that, as it is a matter of fact.

What is known is that he was was a leading collegiate golfer at Princeton around the turn of the century and chosen as one of 12 elite golfers for the Philadelphia team which played the New York team in 1903.  Perrin and Tillinghast were on his side and Macdonald and Emmet on the other.  In the NYT article on the event Wilson was singled out for praise.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9904E4D71439E433A25752C0A9679D946297D6CF&scp=2&sq=%22H.+I.+Wilson%22+golf&st=p

It appears that he didn't play that much from 1903-1911, posssible due to having to build a career and help raise and support a family while in his 20's.  Whatever, from the written record, he was a seriously good golfer.

Rich

Rich
Thanks for the link. Mike has posted this article on several occasions too. I take it this match in 1903 was the highlight of his golfing career, when he was seventh man on twelve man team, playing behind the immortal JJ Cook but a head of Mr. FM Mackie. Defeated in his singles match by the equally immortal LC Kellogg, Jr.

Wilson was a good golfer, trying to portrait him as anything more than that is an exaggeration.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2536 on: July 10, 2009, 11:19:49 AM »
Rich,

You're absolutely right.   Although Hugh Wilson has been portrayed here as somewhere between a mental deficient and a nincompoop in terms of golf knowledge, all he ever said he was a novice in was agronomy and construction.   So was virtually everyone else in the US at that time, especially as regards inland soils.

For anyone who really wants to know more about Hugh Wilson, and not just listen to this agenda-motivated characterization, the following is a series of snippets ( a lot from Joe Bausch's research) from another thread that gives more of the facts of the man;


Hugh Wilson was something of a golfing prodigy in other ways, as well.

The Golf Association of Philadelphia was formed in 1896 with four member clubs, which included Belmont which later became Aronimink.  The others included Philly Country Club, Philly Cricket Club, Merion Cricket Club.

Dr. Henry Toulmin of the same Belmont club was elected Vice-President of GAP.   Remember him?  He later served on Hugh Wilson's construction committee.   He was also one of three men credited with the design of Belmont.

In the first Golf Association of Philadelphia club tournament ever held, which was the Belmont Club Championship in 1897....was won by 18 year old Hugh Wilson!

Later that year, he also competed in the first Philadelphia Amateur Championship, in October 1897.

After the medal rounds, he was in second place of the 8 men who qualified for the championship.

However, in the first round of match-play, he lost to the eventual winnder, Ab Smith!   Funny how all this stuff ties together.  

He played competitively at Princeton, and played in the Intercollegiate Championship in 1901, where he unfortunately lost in the second round.

I can find him records of him playing golf competitively almost every year...except 1910.


To suggest that he knew next to nothing about golf and golf courses when he was appointed chairman of the committee at Merion in 1911 is not accurate, no matter how modest, self-effacing, unassuming, and humble a man he might have been in his public statements.

I'm thinking this thread might be a good place to build a primer about Hugh Wilson, and given that most folks know very little about him, hopefully we can dig a bit deeper.    

This from a recent Joe Bausch finding where he beats Tillinghast in 1903.    

I'm finding myself surprised when I see that most of these relationships go back a decade or more.

It's a bit hard to read, so I'll repeat the first paragraph;

"Hugh I. Wilson has again asserted himself in the local golfing world.   His early promise as one of Philadelphia's best golfers bore fruit through his college career at Princeton, but in winning the St. David's Plate, the annual election day trophy of the St. David's Golf Club yesterday, he demonstrated his ability to hold his own in a medal play contest against the best of Philadelphia's players."




I had mentioned that Wilson was very active in sports in college in a previous thread.  Here is what I base that upon (from the December 19, 1900 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer).



I did not know that Hugh Wilson was a member at Philly CC before Merion (or perhaps he belonged to both).  These scores are from the May 8, 1898 edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer:




And from the May 18, 1901 Philadelphia Inquirer is this little snippet, buried at the very bottom of the sports page:



I'm assuming this means he was captain during his senior year.

Wilson’s playing experience at many of the top clubs while at Princeton alone would have put his knowledge far, far, FAR beyond the average club member, even if he didn't play another single course for the next decade until 1911, which we know he did.

However, where he was really fibbing us was in this latest bit;

As mentioned, Wilson went to Princeton in 1898 and played golf through all four years.

In 1898, it was reported that the University was looking at land to build a new course, one which they hoped would be 18 holes.   Later that year land was aquired, and work began on the course.

I've seen accounts of this first course that suggest it was designed by Willie Dunn, and I came across an account today that suggested that it was done by one James Swan.

In either case, work was slow, and funding was scarce but nine holes of the course opened by 1901.

On March 16th, 1901, the Trenton Times reported that,

"The governors are making every effort to have the course open by June 1st.   A professional has been engaged to take charge of the new course and will arrive here in a few days. The work will be pushed as rapidly as the funds will permit."

"H.I. Wilson, (class of) 1902, was elected a member of the greens committee."


I've done a more comprehensive search for Hugh Wilson in the database of early Philadelphia Inquirer issues I have access to.  I essentially searched for "H I Wilson" or "Hugh Wilson" or "Hugh I Wilson" from 1890 to 1922.  Sorting through the many hits I think this is a reasonably complete list of stories where he is mentioned, but I'm sure I missed a few or more.  In chronological order:

1. March 1, 1896:  youngster at a dinner party (in the 'This Week in Society' article)
2. July 26, 1896:  family makes trip to the Adirondacks
3. May 9, 1897:  GAP match for Belmont team
4. Dec 4, 1897:  GAP tourney
5. Dec 5, 1897:  match at Philly CC
6. Mar 6, 1898:  story calls him 'king' golfer at Belmont and that he doesn't play when the weather gets cold.
7. May 8, 1898:  interclub match playing for Philly CC
8. June 1, 1898:  usher at a wedding.
9. Dec 31, 1899:  at a 'subscription dance' (?); Mary Warren in attendance too.
10. July 29, 1900: at an 'enchre party' (?) in Spring Lake, NJ
11. Dec 19, 1900:  appointed manager of P'ton FR baseball team
12. May 18, 1901:  named captain of golf team
13. June 26, 1901: leaves to visit Silver City, NM (I think this is where little mentioned brother Wayne lives).
14. May 11, 1902:  NCAA match at Garden City
15. June 14, 1903: better ball tourney
16. oops, I skipped a number!
17. Sept 27, 1903:  GAP qualifier
18. Nov 4, 1903:  wins Election Day Trophy tourney at St Davids
19. May 8, 1904:  interclub match
20. May 26, 1904: Stevenson Cup qualifier (playing for Merion)
21. May 28, 1905: GAP match at HVCC (for Merion)
22. June 4, 1905: GAP match vs Mt. Airy
23. May 24 and July 1, 1906:  tourneys at Merion
24. Jan 17, 1907: squash tourney
25. Jan 24, 1907:  squash tourney
26. April 21, 1907:  named to play in 4/27/07 Chevy Chase match
27. June 29, 1907:  a "Hugh Wilson" is listed on a boat to Glasgow.
28. February 12, 1908: squash tourney
29. May 3, 1908: intercity match vs Washington
30. Jan 17, 1909:  squash tourney.
31. Feb 16, 1909:  squash tourney (defaulted match)
32. March 18, 1909:  Princeton Club dinner.
33. Dec 1, 1911: at the Radnor Horse Show (Robert Leslie there too)
34. Sept 12, 1912:  tourney invite for 9/27 and 9/28
35. Apr 10, 1913:  Cobb's stuff.
36. Apr 25, 1913:  Cobb's stuff.
37. June 23, 1913:  Philly Cup competition
38. June 24, 1913:  upcoming GAP tourney
39. July 5, 1913:  GAP match
40. July 6, 1913:  GAP match
41. Sept 20, 1913:  Lesley Cup qualifier invite.
42. Dec 31, 1913:  caddy dinner story at Merion.
43. Nov 4, 1914:  Joe Bunker article.
44. Jan 24, 1915:  Joe Bunker Cobb's story.
45. March 17, 1915:  Joe Bunker article.
46. Apr 9, 1915:  4-ball match w/ Ouimet at Seaview
47. Jan 9, 1916:  Joe Bunker Cobb's article.
48. Apr 23, 1916:  Joe Bunker article that includes recent changes to Merion for upcoming National Amateur tourney.
49. Jan 14, 1917: Billy Bunker article
50. Mar 11, 1917:  his work on two holes at Philmont
51. April 15, 1917:  mentioned in part of PV story
52. Apr 22, 1917:  Billy Bunker article.
53. Apr 21, 1919:  mentioned "In a Social Way" article
54. Dec 21, 1919: part of "Clubs and Clubmen" article where he is mentioned finishing PV
55. Jan 8, 1920: elected to exec comm of USGA
56. Jan 10, 1920:  same as above
57. Jan 18, 1920:  same as above
58. Feb 8, 1920:  trip to Atlantic City
59. Nov 13, 1920: mentioned "In a Social Way" article
60. Nov 4, 1920:  again USGA comm mention
61. Dec 1, 1920: sold house in Bryn Mawr
62. Dec 5, 1920:  dance invitation at Merion CC
63. Aug 2, 1921: trip to NY
64: Oct 31, 1921:  guest at H'ween dance.
65. Mar 3, 1922:  searching for more golf course sites for the city



Has anyone ever come across this one before?  In all of our discussions I can't recall ever seeing it.

In the February 1916 issue of American Golfer, AW Tillinghast writing as "Hazard" wrote the following;

"Certainly a reference to the Merion Course over which the championship of 1916 will be played, must be of interest. The course was opened in 1912, and the plans were decided upon only after a critical review of the great courses in Great Britain and America."

"It was the first of the two eighteen hole courses at Merion, the West Course being opened several years later. The distances are admirable and altogether Merion presents a good test of golf, but in view of the fact that the National title is to be decided there next September, a number of hazards will be introduced to bring the play closer to championship demands."

"Many of the hazards are natural, and a creek which winds through the tract is encountered frequently.  Probably the most interesting section is found at the very end of the round; certainly the last three holes are the most spectacular , for a large stone quarry has been converted to a hazard of immense proportions."

"The sixteenth hole finds it immediately in front of the green, and it must be carried by a courageous well hit second. The seventeenth calls for a tee shot to the green, immediately over the excavation and again it has to be carried in driving for the home hole."

"Other holes present the characteristics of the famous Redan and the Alps of Prestwick. Ben Sayers, the wellknown professional of North Berwick, spends a great deal of time at Merion, where his son George is engaged, and he declares that the course is thoroughly good."

Here's an April 9, 1915 Philadelphia Inquirer report of the match involving Ouimet, Reid, Geist, and Hugh Wilson:



Mike, we need to check out the Philadelphia Record, Philadelphia Press, the Evening Public Ledger, etc in late 1914 and early 1915 for stuff about Seaview.  Another gathering at the Free Library is in order!

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:21:30 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2537 on: July 10, 2009, 11:20:59 AM »
Tom,

If Macdonald and Whigham designed the course in a day's visit in June 1910, which is the only day they were onsite prior to the day the final routing was decided 10 months later as David contends,

or HH Barker routed the course in June 1910 in a single day as you contend, now that we know Cuyler referred to a golf course in Nov 1910, so according to your prior logic there must have been a golf course by then, and not after December 1st when Barker left to go to Atlanta,

and we also know I was able to whup both their butts by creating a routing on the Johnson Farm in 2 hours flat, ;)

Than, I'm not sure how Wilson having a day job precluded his designing the course with his committee, particularly with having the benefit of M+Ws advice.

What could it take a novice...2 days?   :P ;D



Cuyler's referred to a golf course in November 1910? What did he say?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2538 on: July 10, 2009, 11:27:45 AM »

Cuyler's referred to a golf course in November 1910? What did he say?

Tom,

What is referred to as the "Cuyler letter" where he writes to President Evans recommending that HG Lloyd take title of the HDC Land to be able to easily shift boundaries since there was no definite course (Lloyd would subsequently buy the entire 161 acres of 140 Johnson Farm and 21 Dallas Estate)  appeared in the December MCC Minutes, transcribed into the record.

It is dated November 27, 1910.

I mentioned this the other day.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2539 on: July 10, 2009, 11:30:52 AM »
Mike
If we distill your chronology, and only list his golfing activities leading up to 1910 this what it would look like. As you can see he was never entered into the US Am or US Open or any other major amateur tournament. Also he was never a member of the Lesley Cup team, saved for the best golfers in Philadelphia.

May 9, 1897:  GAP match for Belmont team
Dec 4, 1897:  GAP tourney
Dec 5, 1897:  match at Philly CC
Mar 6, 1898:  story calls him 'king' golfer at Belmont and that he doesn't play when the weather gets cold.
May 8, 1898:  interclub match playing for Philly CC
May 18, 1901:  named captain of golf team
1902: On the Princeton GC green committee at the time new course constructed
May 11, 1902:  NCAA match at Garden City
June 14, 1903: better ball tourney
Sept 27, 1903:  GAP qualifier
Nov 4, 1903:  wins Election Day Trophy tourney at St Davids
May 8, 1904:  interclub match
May 26, 1904: Stevenson Cup qualifier (playing for Merion)
May 28, 1905: GAP match at HVCC (for Merion)
June 4, 1905: GAP match vs Mt. Airy
May 24 and July 1, 1906:  tourneys at Merion
April 21, 1907:  named to play in 4/27/07 Chevy Chase match
May 3, 1908: intercity match vs Washington

His activity during a 13 year period is comparable to one good year from Tillinghast, Crump, Perrin, Travis, Macdonald or Whigham. Wilson was a good golfer; he was not among the better golfers in Philadelphia.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2540 on: July 10, 2009, 11:32:42 AM »

Cuyler's referred to a golf course in November 1910? What did he say?

Tom,

What is referred to as the "Cuyler letter" where he writes to President Evans recommending that HG Lloyd take title of the HDC Land to be able to easily shift boundaries since there was no definite course (Lloyd would subsequently buy the entire 161 acres of 140 Johnson Farm and 21 Dallas Estate)  appeared in the December MCC Minutes, transcribed into the record.

It is dated November 27, 1910.

I mentioned this the other day.

I already knew about the letter, I was asking what he said in the letter about a golf course. Wasn't the letter addressed to Lloyd?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2541 on: July 10, 2009, 11:35:54 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I don't believe Tom Doak is quite the golfer Jack Nicklaus is, either.   Which would you have preferred do the work at Ohio State?

Was Wilson a good enough golfer that he would have been considered an "expert" as you know the term was bandied about in the early days of golf in this country?

As you know, Merion reported in January 1911 that "experts" were at work preparing plans for the new course.



p.s., No the letter was addressed to President Evans.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:51:43 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2542 on: July 10, 2009, 11:59:36 AM »
Mike
Here is the latest version of Bryan's timeline. I was right the first time. The letter is addressed to Lloyd.


When  What  Source

 
 
Mar. 15, 1907  Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Company (PALCO) incorporated.  Pennsylvania Department of State

 
 
Feb. 21, 1907  Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Co. (PALCO) acquire the Johnson Farm from Gebhard Fecht for $48,000.  This is the beginning of the assembly of the 338 acre HDC development.  Deed

 
 
Jun. 14, 1909  Haverford Development Company (HDC) was incorporated with $100,000 par value.                                                      

Subscribers:
J. E. Tatnall (68 shares)
J. R. Connell (66 shares)
E. W. Nicholson (66 shares)
 Pennsylvania Department of State

 
 
June 24, 1909  Haverford Development Company (HDC) acquires 67 acre Connor Estate from Land Title and Trust Company.  Deed

 
 
Jun. 10, 1910  Sometime before June 10, Joseph Connell, on his own account, retains H. H. Barker to inspect the Haverford property, sketch the  property and provide a rough lay-out of a course.  On June 10, 1910, Barker inspected the property and submitted a letter, sketch of the property and lay-out of the course to Connell.  A transcription of Barker’s letter to Connell is included in report by MCC golf site search committee to the Board

 
 
Jun. 29, 1910  Sometime before June 29, Griscom invites Macdonald and Whigham to come over from New York to give the benefit of their experience.  On June 29, Macdonald writes to Lloyd giving his view of the merits and issues with the property and his ideas on a 6,000 yard course.  Report by MCC golf site search committee to the Board and Macdonald letter

 
 
Jul. 1, 1910  The MCC Site Committee reports to the Board that its attention has been called to an approximately 300 acre tract, half owned and half optioned by a Syndicate represented by Joseph Connell, that they considered for the golf course.  (At this time, the Syndicate through PALCO and HDC own the Johnson Farm and the Connor Estate respectively, totalling 207 acres.  The remaining properties that comprise the 338 acre HDC development, are the Dallas Estate, the Davis Estate and the Taylor estate, totalling 135 acres.  There is no information yet available about which of these properties were optioned at that time.  Clearly the half owned vs  half optioned statement appears to be incorrect.)[/color)  Site Committee report to the Board

 
 
Jul. 1, 1910  The site committee reported that Connell had offered (presumably some time before July 1) 100 acres, or whatever would be required to lay out the course for $825 an acre.   The 100 acres would cost $82,500.   Site Committee report to the Board

 
 
Jul. 1, 1910  The site committee further notes that they think it is probable that nearly 120 acres would be required for Merion’s purposes and that if it could be obtained at not exceeding $90,000, it would be a wise purchase.   Site Committee report to the Board

 
 
Jul. to Nov. 1910  Merion and HDC negotiate the land deal for the golf course  Inferred from the original offer in July and the securing of 117 acres in November.

 
 
Oct. 31, 1910  Rothwell buys the Dallas Estate from the executors of the late David Dallas’ will, for $21,020.  Deed

 
 
Nov. 9, 1910  Rothwell sells the Dallas Estate to HDC for $1 and subject to a mortgage of $14,020.  Deed

 
 
Nov. 9, 1910   Haverford Development Company sells two parcels totalling 4 acres of the Connor Estate back to the Land Title and Trust Company for $25,000.  Deed

 
 
Nov. 15, 1910  Lloyd solicits MCC members to buy HDC stock up to $150,000 to enable purchase and development of a 338 acre tract.  He describes the 338 acres as being comprised of 5 tracts and says the will be acquired in the future.  The 5 tracts are:

Johnson Farm  140 137/1000 ac.

Dallas Estate    21 ac.

Taylor Estate    56 ac.

Davis Estate      58 ac.

Connor Estate   63 ac. (north of College, 67 ac. in 1908, but two plots totalling 4 ac. sold to Land Title and Trust Co. on November 9, 1910)

Total                338 137/1000 ac.

In this time frame, PALCO owns the Johnson Farm and HDC owns the Connor Estate, while the Dallas Estate has just been purchased a couple of weeks before by HDC.  The Taylor Estate and Davis Estate appear to have been under option.
 Lloyd letter to MCC members.

 
 
Nov. 15, 1910  Some time before November 15, MCC secures 117 acres at $726.50 an acre, or $85,000 for the golf course and reports it to the membership on November 15.  In his 1916 essay in P&O’s book, Wilson says that MCC purchased 125 acres of land  Allen Evans letter to the MCC members.

 
 
Nov. 15, 1910  In Evans letter, it is stated that a plan of the property is attached showing the 117 acre Golf Course property.  (But, the plan of property shows a Golf Course property that measures out to 122 acres, not 117.)  Allen Evans letter to the MCC members.

 
 
Nov. 15, 1910  Contemporaneously with securing the 117 acres for the golf course Lloyd also reportedly secures an option on an additional 13 acres bringing the total for the golf course to 130 acres.  Two newspaper stories from January 1911.

 
 
November 15, 1910  In the letter from Allen Evans to MCC members, attached to the Lloyd letter referred to above, of the same date,   it is noted that the $85,000 price is a good deal made possible by the action of certain members of the Club, who, with others, not members of the Club, have acquired  (which contradicts the attached letter, which says they will acquire) a tract of 338 acres, under the name of Haverford Development Co.  This property adjoins the grounds of Haverford College, between College Avenue and Ardmore Avenue, directly on the Philadelphia and Western Railway, with a station at either end of the property - a plan of the property is enclosed.  President Allen Evan's November 15,1910 letter to the membership

 
 
Nov. 1910  Tom P. reports that there was an exchange of letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC optioning the 117 acres for the MCC golf course.  Tom Paul’s report of letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC

 
 
Nov. 27, 1910  Tom P. reports that there was a letter sent from Cuylers to Lloyd suggesting he take the 161 acres of the the Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate into his own name to make it esier ti adjust boundaries.  Tom Paul’s report of a letter from Cuylers to Lloyd

 
 
3rd week of Dec. 1910  Cuylers gets the MCC Golf Association Company set up with officers, with a certain amount of stock and registered.  NA

 
 
Dec. 16, 1910  161 acres comprised of the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate was transferred from HDC to a man by the name of Rothwell  for $1.00.  Reflected in a deed dated Dec. 16, 1910.

 
 
Dec. 19, 1910  Three days later Rothwell transferred the 161 acre property to Lloyd.  Reflected in a deed dated Dec. 19, 1910

 
 
Still under debate  The land now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long---the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee.  Francis reminisces in 1950 US Open Program

 
 
Jan. 6, 1911   HDC acquires the 56 acre Taylor Estate  Inferred from Deed

 
 
Jan. 11, 1911 or there about  Wilson appointed to chairmanship of the Construction Committee and they hold their first meeting of January 11, 1911.  Tom Paul reports from MCC minutes

 
 
Feb. 1, 1911  Wilson writes to Piper stating that MCC have purchased 117 acres of land.  He also states that he has sent a "contour map", under separate cover, to Piper  Wilson/Oakley letters

 
 
Feb. 2, 1911   Haverford Development Company acquires 58.097 acre Davis Estate from J. Lewis and Carrie Davis.  Deed

 
 
Second Week of Mar. 1911  “Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different golf courses on the new ground, they went down to the National course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening going over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard to golf courses. The next day we spent on the ground studying......"

"On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans.
 MCC Minutes, April 19, 1911

 
 
Apr. 6, 1911  On April 6th, Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day… “  MCC Minutes, April 19, 1911

 
 
Early April 1911  Wilson writes to Oakley that they are beginning to plough and do rough work on the course.  Wilson/Oakley letters

 
 
Apr. 19,1911  Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange.…………..
and the purchase of 3 acres additional for $7,500 ( we have always referred to as the P&W railroad property  ……..  but the club wouldn't actually buy that land from the P&W Railroad ……. until over a half century later)
 Thompson's board resolution

 
 
July 1911   Golf House Road is completed.  Inferred from Deed

 
 
July 19, 1911   HDC reacquires from Lloyd, the 41 acres of the Johnson Farm left after MCCGA took their 99 acre part.  Inferred from Deed

 
 
Jul. 19, 1911  Lloyd transferred 120.01 acres of his 161 acre Dec. 21, 1910 deed back to Rothwell who transferred it to the MCC Golf Association Company the same day.  The purchase is encumbered with a mortgage of $85,000.  July 21, 1911 deed

 
 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:01:19 PM by Tom MacWood »

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2543 on: July 10, 2009, 12:04:52 PM »
Was Wilson a good enough golfer that he would have been considered an "expert" as you know the term was bandied about in the early days of golf in this country?

As you know, Merion reported in January 1911 that "experts" were at work preparing plans for the new course.



That seems quite a stretch. I beleive it is more likely that the report was puffing  a bit. Boards have been lying, covering, and misrepresenting to the mebership since Og and Nog formed the Cavemans Club
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2544 on: July 10, 2009, 12:06:23 PM »
Tom,

I think Bryan assumed because it was giving advice to Lloyd, that it was addressed to him.   I may have been under that impression earlier, as well, but my understanding is that it was addressed to President Evans.

In the letter, my understanding is also that Cuyler also asks Evans to tell him when that boundary has been made definite.


Given Wilson's golfing record, would you say he would be an "expert" as you know the term was bandied about at the time?

As you know, Merion reported in January 1911 that "experts" were at work preparing plans for the course.



John Cullum,

The term "expert" back then referred to golfing prowess, not architectural acumen.

Think about it...how many golf "experts" were there in the country if it referred to the latter in 1910?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:30:01 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2545 on: July 10, 2009, 12:09:04 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I don't believe Tom Doak is quite the golfer Jack Nicklaus is, either.   Which would you have preferred do the work at Ohio State?

Based on their resumes I would have preferred Doak. Its only when you don't have resume (like Wilson) when other factors become important. Have you studied golf architecture; are you connected with others who are golf architects or who have studied golf architecture; have you travelled abroad; are you a nationally or even locally recognized golfer; are you snappy dresser? Wilson was a snappy dresser.

Was Wilson a good enough golfer that he would have been considered an "expert" as you know the term was bandied about in the early days of golf in this country?

As you know, Merion reported in January 1911 that "experts" were at work preparing plans for the new course.


In 1911? No way.

p.s., No the letter was addressed to President Evans.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:13:48 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2546 on: July 10, 2009, 12:14:26 PM »
Please read the 4th headline, and look at the golfers with 4, 7, and 8 handicaps in 1901




Here is a listing top Philadelphia golfers in January 1912 as listed in "American Golfer";

The low mark men follow:

Handicap 4.—Messrs. G. A. Crump,
Philadelphia Country Club; H. B. Mc-
Farland, Huntingdon Valley Country
Club; W. L. Thompson, Huntingdon
Valley, W. P. Smith, Country Club;
H. W. Perrin, Merion.

Handicap 5.—Dr. S. Carr, Huntingdon
Valley; Messrs. W. T. West,
Country Club; R. E. Hanson, Country
Club; A. H. Smith, Huntingdon Valley;
C. B. Buxton, Huntingdon Valley;
H. B. Heyburn, Philadelphia
Cricket Club; R. Mott, Huntingdon
Valley; E. A. Service, Philadelphia
Country Club; W. E. Shackleford,
Atlantic City.

Handicap 6.—Messrs. B. Bartholomew,
Philadelphia Cricket Club; E.
W. Clark, 3d, Philadelphia Country
Club; H. H. Francine, Philadelphia
Cricket Club; R. S. Francis, Merion;
J. H. Gordon, Merion; R. E. Griscom,
Merion; R. W. Harvey, Philadelphia
Country; E. B. Humphreys, Huntingdon
Valley; R. C. James, Springhaven;
M. Risley, Atlantic City; H. P.
Smith, Huntingdon Valley; A. W.
Tillinghast, Philadelphia Cricket Club;
W. A. Tyson, Springhaven; A. C.
Williams, Philadelphia Cricket Club;
H. I. Wilson, Merion; H. R. Worthington,
Philadelphia Cricket Club.

Handicap 7.—Messrs. J. S. Alcorn,
Philadelphia Country Club; J, B. Colahan,
3d, Springhaven; A. Collins,
Aronimink; G. J. Cooke, Philadelphia
Cricket Club; J. P. Edwards, Philadelphia
Country Club; W. H. Gardner,
St. Davids; F. W. Kemble, Country;
G. C. Klauder, Bala; R. H.
Large, Huntingdon Valley; B. F.
Lewis, Athletic Club; H. G. Lloyd,
Merion;
J. R. Maxwell, Jr., Merion;
J. A. McCurdy, Overbrook; W. J. Mc-
Glynn, Overbrook; B. O. Race, Belfield;
E, Satterthwaite, Belfield; G.
Scott, Philadelphia Country Club; F.
S. Sherman, Atlantic City; Mc L.
Thomson, Atlantic City; Herman
Wendell, St. Davids; H. F. Wendell,
St. Davids; R. Wier, Springhaven.


Dr. Toulmin was getting a bit long in the tooth by this time, but he originally had the course record at Belmont.

And the top "expert" at Merion?   Well, as you mentioned, that was Howard Perrin, who had just jumped over to the club and was still a bit of an outsider.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:31:58 PM by MCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2547 on: July 10, 2009, 12:25:30 PM »
More about the "expert" Howard Perrin as reported in American Golfer 1909;

"The Merion team should prove quite a factor this season, for, in addition to such capable players as Messrs. R. E. Griscom, Walter G. Pfeil, Hugh Wilson, Chas. S. Farnum and Dr.Toulmin, the team will be greatly strengthened by Mr. Howard W. Perrin.   For years Mr. Perrin has been one of the most formidable golfers in the city and a tower of strength to the Philadelphia Cricket Club, but a change of residence transfers his allegiance to Merion."

Later in 1909, it was reported;

"Merion has been greatly strengthened by the acquisition of Mr. Howard W. Perrin, but they will feel the loss of Mr. R. E. Griscom, who is in Europe."
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:27:12 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2548 on: July 10, 2009, 12:28:59 PM »
Was Wilson a good enough golfer that he would have been considered an "expert" as you know the term was bandied about in the early days of golf in this country?

As you know, Merion reported in January 1911 that "experts" were at work preparing plans for the new course.



That seems quite a stretch. I beleive it is more likely that the report was puffing  a bit. Boards have been lying, covering, and misrepresenting to the mebership since Og and Nog formed the Cavemans Club

Mike has been asked about the date of the MCC statement that mentioned experts at work, but he doesn't seem to know. Those same words appeared in an article in Philadelphia Inquire on January 7, so it must have been sometime before the 7th. According to TEP the Wilson Committee's first meeting was January 11. I suspect there were real experts at work.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:31:28 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2549 on: July 10, 2009, 12:33:49 PM »
Tom,

Oh yes, there clearly were experts at work. (see above)

Honestly, you know better how the term was used back then and I'm surprised you'd support David's faulty contention here.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:35:46 PM by MCirba »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back