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Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2475 on: July 09, 2009, 12:08:52 PM »
Tom

Apologies for getting you mixed up with David earlier on. Just so I get you right, are you saying that blueprint = architectural drawing, and that as a "blank" contour map/plan isn't an architectural drawing, there must have been some sort of "architectural drawings" on the contour map/plan to make Oakley refer to it as a blueprint ? Did I get that correct ?

Niall

No problem. Yes, that is was what I'm saying.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2476 on: July 09, 2009, 12:15:27 PM »
Neville/Grant? Was Neville/Grant's version of PBGL considered a great course?

The "unfinished" Merion course opened in Fall 1912 was not considered a "great course" either, if you objectively read the reviews of Tillinghast, "Far and Sure", and Alex Findlay.

They all thought it had a lot of possibilities to become a great course, and to a man thought the quarry holes were great (probably because they relied on a dramatic natural feature), but they also each had quite a bit of criticism and each thought quite a number of holes were rather mundane.

Richard Francis himself good-naturedly told us a lot of places where they screwed up at first, with multiple road crossings, greens that were too pitched either to or fro, the "awfully interesting", three-terraced 2nd and the 8th and 14th greens, and so on.

This floated notion that it was a great course in September 1912 because of some brilliant routing that could have only been conceived by an experienced genius is the biggest myth propogated on this whole issue if not this entire website.

It wasn't...both the routing as well as the hole interiors had significant architectural and mechanical flaws, which is evidenced by the fact that almost half the routing changed in whole or in part on almost half the holes to the course between 1912 and 1930.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 12:30:43 PM by MCirba »

Michael Blake

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2477 on: July 09, 2009, 12:20:06 PM »
Neville/Grant? Was Neville/Grant's version of PBGL considered a great course?

I guess some though it was not 'championship caliber.'  Despite all the changes since, the original routing is still in place--which is the most difficult part of designing a course.

I guess I just don't understand the genesis/motive of choosing Merion to question design credit.  It doesn't seem like there are enough facts in the opinion piece to rewrite history.  Are there alterior motives besides simply trying to find the truth?  Is sure seems like this is very personal.. Just my opinion.

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2478 on: July 09, 2009, 12:23:40 PM »
Tom,

Wouldn't there have been a "Title" to this architectural drawing? For example, I have seen a number of topographical drawings for Tillinghast courses and EVERY one of them, regardless of how much detailed course information was on them, had a title. For example, there is the one I am looking at right now that is titled "Topographical Map of Golf Course Essex County Country Club."

I have also seen topographical drawings done PRIOR to course designs and they are simply labelled "topographical drawing." There is a good deal of Tilly correspondence wherein he asks for "topographical drawings of the property" so that he can place his design upon it.

As you have pointed out, these are technically minded men yet there is not a single drawing referenced in the letters you cite that is TITLED! Why is that? Without a title or direct statement stating that the drawing sent was nything morethan a simple topographical drawing of the land upon which the golf course was to be built one simply cannot say that there was a drawing of a golf course, existing or otherwise, on the topographical blueprint that was sent.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2479 on: July 09, 2009, 12:31:15 PM »
Neville/Grant? Was Neville/Grant's version of PBGL considered a great course?

The "unfinished" Merion course opened in Fall 1912 was not considered a "great course" either, if you objectively read the reviews of Tillinghast, "Far and Sure", and Alex Findlay.

They all thought it had a lot of possibilities to become a great course, and to a man thought the quarry holes were great (probably because they relied on a dramatic natural feature), but they also each had quite a bit of criticism and each thought quite a number of holes were rather mundane.

Richard Francis himself good-naturedly told us a lot of places where there screwed up at first, with multiple road crossings, greens that were too pitched either to or fro, the 2nd and 14th greens, and so on.

This floated notion that it was a great course in September 1912 because of some brilliant routing that could have only been conceived by an experienced genius is the biggest myth propogated on this whole issue if not this entire website.

It wasn't...both the routing as well as the hole interiors had significant architectural and mechanical flaws, which is evidenced by the fact that almost half the routing changed in whole or in part on almost half the holes to the course between 1912 and 1930.


I agree, it was not considered as great as the course it later developed into. The original Oakmont was a probably below both of them.

The original Merion did however garner immediate attention as a potential championship site and secured the 1916 US Am, a remarkably achievement for such a young course.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2480 on: July 09, 2009, 12:35:26 PM »
Tom,

I'd say that had more to do with getting a championship into Philadelphia, which was one of the 4 most golf-prosperous cities in the country at that time.

Ironically, and as bemoaned by many in the press like Tillinghast for years prior, Philadelphia had NOTHING approximating a Championship Course in either length or difficulty before Merion was built.

Even then, however, it took a LOT of adds and changes to the course over four years to get Merion to that level by 1916.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2481 on: July 09, 2009, 12:40:36 PM »
Here is some:

Wilson really was a complete novice and needed some expert guidance. His committee in fact had McDonald come visit the property in the very early stages, and he clearly particpated in some degree.


It all seemed to come together very rapidly, again, something a inexperienced designer/builder would have a difficult time doing.


Whigham put it on the list of McDonald courses in 1939.

John,  

All true, but there is more than this.  
- M&W visited the site at least twice, not just once.  
- And according to Robert Lesley, after M&W's first visit, Merion's site committee recommended the purchase of the golf course land based largely on M&W's advice.
- And Merion even added acreage they were apparently not previously considering based on M&W's advice.
- And when Merion announced that experts were at work on the plans (either late December 1910 or early January 1911)  Wilson was by no means an expert, and had only just been appointed to the Construction Committee if he had been appointed yet at all.
- And Wilson was seeking and receiving M&W's advice on a variety of issues from early on in Wilson's involvement until after the course was planned.
- And Wilson appears to have been the type to seek out and follow expert advice (see the mass of agronomy letters.)
- And three weeks before M&W's second visit to Merion, Wilson and his committee spent two days at NGLA with M&W going over how they should  lay out Merion East, and how the how the underlying principles of  the great holes could be applied on the ground at Merion.
- And according to Alan Wilson, M&W advised Merion as to the layout of Merion East, and their advice was of the greatest help and value.
- And, according to TEPaul, on their second visit Macdonald and Whigham spent the day going over the land again and "approved" the final routing plan that would go to the board a few weeks later.
- And in the two Board Meetings about which we have information, M&W's opinions were presented and the board apparently acted on their advice.  
- And I have seen no direct evidence indicating that Hugh Wilson was even mentioned in Merion's board meetings about the land or the final routing plan, nor is their any direct evidence that Merion ever chose him to plan the course.
- And Wilson attempted to build holes that are synonomous with CBM designs even though he had never seen the holes on which CBM's holes were modeled.  
- And Whigham, who was there, included Merion in a list of famous courses designed by CBM.

This is by no means a complete list, but it should give some idea of the evidence that is out there.   No need to parse words.  The evidence of M&W's involvement is pretty overwhelming.

In contrast, there really isn't much evidence that Wilson was chosen to design the course or that he did.  None of the early press reports about the planning or announcements by Merion even mention him.   Merion credited him and his Committee not with the design but on laying the course out on the ground.  Wilson himself never took credit for the design.   Those that knew him well at the Green Section never even mentioned the original design of Merion in his remembrance, but instead mentioned the changes he made to the course in the early 1920s. It appears that the legend of Hugh Wilson being primarily responsible for the original design plan at  Merion is largely a modern one.  

______________________________________________________________________

Is questioning the 'novices' Neville/Grant or Fownes and their home-run designs next?

My understanding is that more than one Fownes worked on Oakmont for a long period of time before it became what we think of today.    And no doubt Hugh Wilson deserves great credit for laying the course out upon the ground and for how Merion evolved over time (in fact in my opinion he deserves more credit for this than he is currently given.)  By the time of his untimely death, Wilson was hardly a novice.  He had been taught by the very best (M&W) and had applied his knowledge admirably at Merion and elsewhere.   His accomplishments should be praised and valued,

But my focus is on the original design; the backbone of the original course.    And at that time, Wilson and his committee knew no more that average club members and they were very fortunate to have CBM and HW to guide them through the process.    We are fortunate as well because without CBM and HW's extensive involvement there would be no Merion East as we know it.  

As for my motive, it has always been to figure out what happened.   My essay was not an attack piece nor was it in any way disrespectful to anyone involved.   Read it if you don't believe me.     This has only become personal because certain individuals in Philadelphia have insisted on attacking me and my ideas viciously and repeatedly but haven't been men enough to back up their attacks with actual verifiable support.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 12:43:22 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Michael Blake

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2482 on: July 09, 2009, 12:51:29 PM »
David,

The 'personal' to me appears to be something between you/Tom M and Wayne/Tom P.  I assume there is a longer history between all of you that I am unaware of.

But if you say you simply want to figure out what happened then I will take your word for it.  And I have read the essay a couple of times.

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2483 on: July 09, 2009, 12:54:46 PM »
Tom,

I'd say that had more to do with getting a championship into Philadelphia, which was one of the 4 most golf-prosperous cities in the country at that time.

Ironically, and as bemoaned by many in the press like Tillinghast for years prior, Philadelphia had NOTHING approximating a Championship Course in either length or difficulty before Merion was built.

Even then, however, it took a LOT of adds and changes to the course over four years to get Merion to that level by 1916.


I thought Barker and CBM were assumed to be in town for the US Open in June 1910.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2484 on: July 09, 2009, 12:57:36 PM »
Tom,

Wouldn't there have been a "Title" to this architectural drawing? For example, I have seen a number of topographical drawings for Tillinghast courses and EVERY one of them, regardless of how much detailed course information was on them, had a title. For example, there is the one I am looking at right now that is titled "Topographical Map of Golf Course Essex County Country Club."

I have also seen topographical drawings done PRIOR to course designs and they are simply labelled "topographical drawing." There is a good deal of Tilly correspondence wherein he asks for "topographical drawings of the property" so that he can place his design upon it.

As you have pointed out, these are technically minded men yet there is not a single drawing referenced in the letters you cite that is TITLED! Why is that? Without a title or direct statement stating that the drawing sent was nything morethan a simple topographical drawing of the land upon which the golf course was to be built one simply cannot say that there was a drawing of a golf course, existing or otherwise, on the topographical blueprint that was sent.

Phil
I would expect most architectural drawings to have a title, in this case something like 'Merion Cricket Club Golf Course' or 'The New Course for Merion Cricket Club.' Are you saying Wilson should have or would have written "I'm sending you under separate cover a blue print titled Merion Cricket Club Golf Course"; instead of "I'm sending you under separate cover a blue print." Most architectural drawing are rolled up, I don't think you'd see the title until you unrolled it.

Wilson sent two maps, the first one he called a contour map and the second one he called a blue print. You are saying he should have mentioned a title in both cases?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:04:38 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2485 on: July 09, 2009, 01:03:44 PM »

I thought Barker and CBM were assumed to be in town for the US Open in June 1910.

Jim,   Mike Cirba and others like to pretend that they know CBM and HJW were in town for the tournament because they apparently think it makes the fact that Merion brought him in less important.   But neither CBM nor HJW played in the tournament, and I have seen no evidence that either one of them attended. 

Tom,

Wouldn't there have been a "Title" to this architectural drawing? For example, I have seen a number of topographical drawings for Tillinghast courses and EVERY one of them, regardless of how much detailed course information was on them, had a title. For example, there is the one I am looking at right now that is titled "Topographical Map of Golf Course Essex County Country Club."

I have also seen topographical drawings done PRIOR to course designs and they are simply labelled "topographical drawing." There is a good deal of Tilly correspondence wherein he asks for "topographical drawings of the property" so that he can place his design upon it.

As you have pointed out, these are technically minded men yet there is not a single drawing referenced in the letters you cite that is TITLED! Why is that? Without a title or direct statement stating that the drawing sent was nything morethan a simple topographical drawing of the land upon which the golf course was to be built one simply cannot say that there was a drawing of a golf course, existing or otherwise, on the topographical blueprint that was sent.

Phil
I would expect most architectural drawings to have a title, in this case something like 'Merion Cricket Club Golf Course' or 'The New Course for Merion Cricket Club.' Are you saying Wilson would have written "I'm sending you under separate cover a blue print titled Merion Cricket Club Golf Course"; instead of "I'm sending you under separate cover a blue print." Most architectural drawing are rolled up, I don't think you'd see the title until you unrolled it.

Wilson sent two maps, the first one he called a contour map and the second one he called a blue print. You're saying he should have mentioned a title in both cases?

One small addition/correction.   Hugh Wilson did not send the first map.  He had it sent.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2486 on: July 09, 2009, 01:06:26 PM »
Tom,

I'd say that had more to do with getting a championship into Philadelphia, which was one of the 4 most golf-prosperous cities in the country at that time.

Ironically, and as bemoaned by many in the press like Tillinghast for years prior, Philadelphia had NOTHING approximating a Championship Course in either length or difficulty before Merion was built.

Even then, however, it took a LOT of adds and changes to the course over four years to get Merion to that level by 1916.


I thought Barker and CBM were assumed to be in town for the US Open in June 1910.

You are correct, the 1910 US Open was held at Philadelphia Cricket.

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2487 on: July 09, 2009, 01:10:38 PM »
Priceless!

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2488 on: July 09, 2009, 01:15:52 PM »
David,

Could you describe for us exactly what tasks are involved in "laying out a course on the ground" as well as any evidence for your contention that he hasn't been given "enough credit" for his work in that regard?

Jim,

Yes, and Philly Cricket hosted the 1907 US Open as well.

However, it wasn't considered either a great championship test nor a great course architecturally, and selection of venues had to do with geographic politics more than anything.

Some might argue that not much has changed!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2489 on: July 09, 2009, 01:21:13 PM »
David,

The 'personal' to me appears to be something between you/Tom M and Wayne/Tom P.  I assume there is a longer history between all of you that I am unaware of.

But if you say you simply want to figure out what happened then I will take your word for it.  And I have read the essay a couple of times.

It does have a long history, but to me it all boils down to the same thing.  TEPaul and Wayne have long taken great personal offense to anyone who goes snooping around in their backyard, and they will come at anyone with everything they can to shut down any questions or conversations about their pet topics.  

They've spread horrible and defamatory lies about me, spread lies about my essay, and have mounted numerous campaigns to get rid of me and others on these boards, and TEPaul has even made thinly veiled threats against my personal well-being.  Have I taken some of it personally?  Of course, because some of it has been very personl.  

But as far as my research goes, my goal has remained the same from the beginning-- to figure out what happened at Merion so I can better understand the early history of American golf course design.   Their lies, threats, animosity, and ill will may have strengthened my resolve, and at this point I feel compelled to defend my reputation and my ideas and to demand that they back up their spurious allegations and attacks with fact, but the goal still remains to get at the truth.  

But personally, I'd like to never have to deal with them again, and if they came clean with the information so I could vet and answer their claims and, and update essay, I'd gladly put this all behind us and move on to more interesting things.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:25:43 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2490 on: July 09, 2009, 01:24:14 PM »
Tom,
For the sake of arguement, let's say CBM designed Merion.  With that supposition in place, why do you feel Merion would have hid that fact from their members and the public?

One of the biggest holes I see in the CBM theory is what Merion's motivation would have been.  Why would they have lied?

(I freely admit that based on readings here and elsewhere that I think Wilson did the design)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2491 on: July 09, 2009, 01:37:54 PM »
Tom,
For the sake of arguement, let's say CBM designed Merion.  With that supposition in place, why do you feel Merion would have hid that fact from their members and the public?

One of the biggest holes I see in the CBM theory is what Merion's motivation would have been.  Why would they have lied?

(I freely admit that based on readings here and elsewhere that I think Wilson did the design)

Dan,  While you did not direct the question to me this time, by my count this is about the 4th time you have asked this question in the past few threads, and probably at least the 10th time overall.

Out of curiousity, have you not seen any of my prior responses where I have explained in detail that early Merion never masked or hid M&W's involvement from the public, but rather praised M&W?   Or have you just dismissed all my prior explanations without comment?     Or is something else ongoing that I don't understand?

David,

Could you describe for us exactly what tasks are involved in "laying out a course on the ground" as well as any evidence for your contention that he hasn't been given "enough credit" for his work in that regard?

I have repeatedly explained the meaning in detail and won't bother doing it again.   Suffice it to say that it involves "the ground."  In Merion's case it involved arranging the golf holes on the ground according to the plan that that had been developed pursuant to M&W's guidance and then approved M&W.  

As for your second question, that is an entirely different discussion that would only distract from this topic. (Isn't that the reason you asked?)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:41:22 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2492 on: July 09, 2009, 01:41:01 PM »
David,
I admit that I didn't understand your reply. 

Do you have anythig from Merion that stated to the public that CBM, not Wilson, designed the course?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2493 on: July 09, 2009, 01:44:08 PM »
David,

"One small addition/correction.   Hugh Wilson did not send the first map.  He had it sent."

Thanks, you're correct and I misspoke...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2494 on: July 09, 2009, 01:51:51 PM »
David,
I admit that I didn't understand your reply.  

Do you have anythig from Merion that stated to the public that CBM, not Wilson, designed the course?

Do you or anyone else have anything from Merion written at that time indicating that Hugh Wilson initially designed the course?    I sure don't.    And I am not asking for your opinion but documents from the time where Merion credited Hugh Wilson.    

If you don't then why not?   Does this mean that they were covering up Hugh Wilson's involvement in the initial design from the public?

The problem is that they did not think of these things and write of these things in the same way we did.   But if we put ourselves in the context of the time and look at how they commonly discussed these things, we can see that Lesley, Alan Wilson, and Hugh Wilson all acknowledged M&W's extensive involvement in designing the course.  Also, internally, the board minutes establsih the importance of their extensive involvement.   In addition to that, but moving outside of Merion, so did Tillinghast, Findlay, and Whigham, to name some.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 01:53:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2495 on: July 09, 2009, 02:02:48 PM »
Tom,

I'd say that had more to do with getting a championship into Philadelphia, which was one of the 4 most golf-prosperous cities in the country at that time.

Ironically, and as bemoaned by many in the press like Tillinghast for years prior, Philadelphia had NOTHING approximating a Championship Course in either length or difficulty before Merion was built.

Even then, however, it took a LOT of adds and changes to the course over four years to get Merion to that level by 1916.


I thought Barker and CBM were assumed to be in town for the US Open in June 1910.

Jim
You are correct the Open was at Phila Cricket in 1910. It is also true Barker was in the field, and David is correct that neither CBM nor Whigham competed. Barker apparently was in Philadelphia on three separate occasions around this time. A week or two prior to his Merion inspection he played a practice round at PC with George Sargent of Chevy Chase, Alex Smith of Wykagyl amd I believe Willie Anderson...then came the Merion visit...and then the US Open the following week.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 02:10:53 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2496 on: July 09, 2009, 02:11:31 PM »
Dan,

While I don't believe that Merion ever intentionally slighted M&W, if we consider what we was ongoing in golf at the time, we can see that there might have been reasons for Merion not to sing CBM's praises too loudly or too often.   This was right about then the Schenectady Putter fiasco broke out, and most of the golfing community in the United States was very much at odds with not only the R and A, but also with CBM personally as he was construed to have sided with the Royal and Ancient and against the United States and its hero of the time, Walter Travis (ironically an Australian) who had beaten them at their own game on their soil with the mallet headed putter.    Tempers were running high and scathing rebukes of CBM were written and printed, and his popularity suffered greatly, and American nationalism toward things golf related was in a fervor.  But again, I don't think the intentionally slighted him, although a changing attitude toward him and what he represented probably did not make it all that conducive a time to brag excessively about one's CBM course.   

That being said, I've always figured that this golfing nationalism might have had something to do with why those in Philadelphia suddenly quit talking about how most of the holes at Merion were modeled after the great holes abroad.   It was no longer all that popular to be following what had happened abroad.   But that sort of thing is tough to prove or quantify.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David Amarnek

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2497 on: July 09, 2009, 02:13:30 PM »
Where did anyone, other than W, ever state that M and W had "extensive involvement" in designing Merion East?  That is extrapolation to the nth degree.  They assisted in the design process, as is readily acknowledged by everyone from the beginning.  Everything else has been mental masturbation and in my opinion has been a waste of time and energy.

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2498 on: July 09, 2009, 02:31:52 PM »
Where did anyone, other than W, ever state that M and W had "extensive involvement" in designing Merion East?  That is extrapolation to the nth degree.  They assisted in the design process, as is readily acknowledged by everyone from the beginning.  Everything else has been mental masturbation and in my opinion has been a waste of time and energy.


David
Thank you for sharing your opinion. If you had only given it to us a year or more ago you could've saved us all a lot of time and effort...but better late than never. Thank you again.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2499 on: July 09, 2009, 02:38:03 PM »
Thanks for your opinion David.

I don't think I ever ever used "extensive involvement" as a quote. That being said, if you don't think that helping them choose their land, teaching Wilson how to lay out the course, and approving the final routing plan is "extensive involvement," then there is no use use me debating it with you.

And while their assitance with the design process may have been readily acknowledged in the beginning,  it has not been readily acknowledged for some time.  In fact one of the self-proclaimed historians from Merion has argued that all he knew about Macdonald's involvement was that CBM helped Wilson plan for his trip abroad, and that all else was irresponsible speculation.      Hardly an acknowledgement of their role in the design process.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)