[Niall C]

"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

Niall
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. I went back and re-read your posts and you did say there may have been planned golf coursee circa 2/1/1911. At the time I was focused on your claim that I was using the term 'blue print' in a modern manner....to support your arument that there was no architectural plan on the contour map. We now know -- from Webster's 1913 dictionary -- a reproduction of an architectural drawing or architectural plan was its common use back then too.

David

I suspect that any confusion has come from my inelegant definitions. I was concerned that you were maybe reading too much into the use of the word "blueprint" and perhaps using its modern connitation which is as some sort of masterplan or whatever. For instance, on this side of the pond you would some times here politicians coming away with statements about "a blueprint for providing a better future" or some such tosh. Clearly they aren't talking about a physical plan (as you no longer get blueprints I believe) but about a plan of action. Thats one crude example but hopefully you get my drift. The reason I tried to highlight this was not to support my opinion that the plan/blueprint didn't have a routing on it, I have other reasons to believe that, but more to say to you that you would be wrong (in my opinion) to come to the conclusion that it did on the back of the reference to the plan being a blueprint.

The reasons why I suspect that there wasn't a golf course routing or detailed course layout shown on the plan are firstly the plan is referred to as the contour plan and that there is no reference that I can see in the letters that refers to the golf course being shown on the plan ie a routing or feature details such as greens/tees/bunkers etc. Secondly, each plan has its own purpose. It is usual practice to issue separate plans for the same area which show different things eg one plan might show contours and that would be the contour plan, another plan might show the routing and that would be the routing plan, another plan might show landscaping/seeding etc and so on. In issuing drawings the architect/surveyor/engineer/draughtsman isn't going to waste time and effort reproducing detail which is insignificant to the purposes of the plan. In other words a contour plan would have contours but probably wouldn't have other detail such as routing, services etc.

I am of course assuming that Wilson and his committee produced detailed drawings/plans for their contractor but then they might just have given him a copy of the contour plan with some rough hole locations sketched on and told the contractor "there you go boys, theres where we want the green for the 1st and we want it regular shaped and about 20 yards by about 20 yards. We also want it to slope back to front with the front 3 feet lower than the back" or whatever. Hard to say exactly how they did it but I suppose it is possible that they were less relient on plans than we think (or at least than what I think) given that they were on the ground for most of the project.

Niall    

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I did answer your question two pages ago.   Here you go again, with an additional comment...

As far as the Green Committee questions, I don't know the answer to either question, honestly.

I do know that by December 1914 he was so taxed by his work at Merion and subsequent design/build jobs at Merion West, Seaview, Philmont, and North Hills, as well as his work for Robert Lesley's GAP Committee charged with locating a site for Philly's first public course that he resigned as Chairman of the Green Committee, citing the need to focus on his his business affairs.   After all, he wasn't a professional golf course architect although by virtue of what he was able to accomplish with his design at Merion East, apparently industry titans Robert Lesley, Clarence Geist, Ellis Gimbel, Franklin Meehan, and others in the area like Tillinghast and George Thomas as well as all of the golf writers in the city sure treated him like one immediately afterwards.

Despite his resignation and plan to focus on business, in January 1915 Robert Lesley (who was now President of GAP) picked Wilson again to lead a committee...this time to design and construct the public course at Cobb's Creek, which he accepted and spent several months on.


Why do you think the blueprint of Merion from 1928 doesn't have any golf holes drawn on it?  

Why do you think based on hundreds of letters WIlson and Oakley exchanged there is not a single mention of any golf tee, fairway, green, or hole location on any plan or any contour map or any blueprint?

The P&O letters mention that Wilson was stepping down as chairman of the green committe, replaced by Withrop Sargent. With your interest in Wilson it might be something for you to look up.

Regarding Wilson and Oakley, their entire focus was on fariways and greens, which is confirmed in Wilson's 1916 account. In order to treat and seed fairways and greens you have to know where fairways and greens are located, and if you know where the fairways and greens are located, you have a routing.

Oakley's advice was general advice, general advice relating to fariways and greens, general adivce regarding certain soil conidtions. There would no reason for him to mention specific greens or fairways, and he didn't in all the letters posted....and the letters afterward.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I am sure this is just a silly question, but are you saying that a "contour plan" is NOT an architectural drawing?

[Tom MacWood]

Think of blueprints the same as Xerox. Its a process.  It was replaced by blue line prints, done with a coated paper and ammonia by the 1970's.  And, with large scale Xerox and now inkjet printers and CAD, replaced again.

However, in any reprodutive era, I have personally prepared base maps, contour maps, soil testing maps (with lettered references), routing maps, construction maps, etc.

Using the phrase "blueprint" to say what kind of drawing is on there is among the dumbest things I have heard argued on this thread.  It just isn't so, and I am surprised to hear Tom MacWood argue it, because he had some Landscape Architecture training and would know that.  That he is using this argument, when he really knows better, is dumbfounding to me, really.  It is just another example of how absurd this thread is.

All just MHO of course.  But I have prepared prints at many, many stages of the design process. Of course, if you want to take someone elses word for it that I am sadly out of touch with what went on back then, so be it.

I spent yesterday touring Cape Arundel golf club in Maine, a nearly untouched Travis course. Like Wilson and his committee, "I learned more in one day there than in my many years of participating on Merion threads" about what golf cousres were like in the early 1900's.

Jeff
So I take it you disregard Webster's 1913 explanation of the term's long held use. How was the term generally used back then?

Did Travis design Cape Arundel in the early 1900s?

[Tom MacWood]

"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

Niall
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. I went back and re-read your posts and you did say there may have been planned golf coursee circa 2/1/1911. At the time I was focused on your claim that I was using the term 'blue print' in a modern manner....to support your arument that there was no architectural plan on the contour map. We now know -- from Webster's 1913 dictionary -- a reproduction of an architectural drawing or architectural plan was its common use back then too.

David

I suspect that any confusion has come from my inelegant definitions. I was concerned that you were maybe reading too much into the use of the word "blueprint" and perhaps using its modern connitation which is as some sort of masterplan or whatever. For instance, on this side of the pond you would some times here politicians coming away with statements about "a blueprint for providing a better future" or some such tosh. Clearly they aren't talking about a physical plan (as you no longer get blueprints I believe) but about a plan of action. Thats one crude example but hopefully you get my drift. The reason I tried to highlight this was not to support my opinion that the plan/blueprint didn't have a routing on it, I have other reasons to believe that, but more to say to you that you would be wrong (in my opinion) to come to the conclusion that it did on the back of the reference to the plan being a blueprint.

The reasons why I suspect that there wasn't a golf course routing or detailed course layout shown on the plan are firstly the plan is referred to as the contour plan and that there is no reference that I can see in the letters that refers to the golf course being shown on the plan ie a routing or feature details such as greens/tees/bunkers etc. Secondly, each plan has its own purpose. It is usual practice to issue separate plans for the same area which show different things eg one plan might show contours and that would be the contour plan, another plan might show the routing and that would be the routing plan, another plan might show landscaping/seeding etc and so on. In issuing drawings the architect/surveyor/engineer/draughtsman isn't going to waste time and effort reproducing detail which is insignificant to the purposes of the plan. In other words a contour plan would have contours but probably wouldn't have other detail such as routing, services etc.

I am of course assuming that Wilson and his committee produced detailed drawings/plans for their contractor but then they might just have given him a copy of the contour plan with some rough hole locations sketched on and told the contractor "there you go boys, theres where we want the green for the 1st and we want it regular shaped and about 20 yards by about 20 yards. We also want it to slope back to front with the front 3 feet lower than the back" or whatever. Hard to say exactly how they did it but I suppose it is possible that they were less relient on plans than we think (or at least than what I think) given that they were on the ground for most of the project.

Niall    

I'm Tom, not David. I was using the term as explained in the old Webster's dictionary -- an architectural drawing or plan.

[John_Cullum]

I do not see all of this parsing of words as being helpful.

I find the most convincing evidence that McDonald and Whigham (nor Barker before them) did not route the course to be that none of them ever claimed they did; coupled with Wilson's personal account which credits them with only scant participation.

If I am way off rack on this, I respectfully request Tom McW or David to enlighten me with something other than parsing of words

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Actually I asked the wrong question. Going by your definition provided for "blue print":

"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

In what way does a "contour map" if it is done as "white lines on a blue ground" NOT meet this definition?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I am sure this is just a silly question, but are you saying that a "contour plan" is NOT an architectural drawing?

A contour map or topographic map may or may not be an architectural drawing, it depends on if an architectural drawing is placed upon it.

[DMoriarty]

I do not see all of this parsing of words as being helpful.

I find the most convincing evidence that McDonald and Whigham (nor Barker before them) did not route the course to be that none of them ever claimed they did; coupled with Wilson's personal account which credits them with only scant participation.

If I am way off rack on this, I respectfully request Tom McW or David to enlighten me with something other than parsing of words

H.J. Whigham included Merion East on a list of courses that CBM had designed.

[John_Cullum]

I do not see all of this parsing of words as being helpful.

I find the most convincing evidence that McDonald and Whigham (nor Barker before them) did not route the course to be that none of them ever claimed they did; coupled with Wilson's personal account which credits them with only scant participation.

If I am way off rack on this, I respectfully request Tom McW or David to enlighten me with something other than parsing of words

H.J. Whigham included Merion East on a list of courses that CBM had designed.

Interesting. I would like to see it in all of its context before deciding the weight I'll give that

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Actually I asked the wrong question. Going by your definition provided for "blue print":

"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

In what way does a "contour map" if it is done as "white lines on a blue ground" NOT meet this definition?

I don't believe the format or color is important: "now also applied to an architectural plan of any color"

A blank contour map is not an architectural plan or architectural drawing. Based upon the common use of the word in 1913 (and today), as an architectural drawing or plan, a 'blue print' would be the product of an architect or designer. A contour map would be the product of a surveyor.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

If it's not a contour map, then why does Hugh Wilson tell Piper/Oakley he's sending them a contour map in his very first letter?

John Cullum,

Whigham referred to Merion Circket Club as a "Maconald/Raynor course" along with a short list of others in 1939, after everyone including both Wilson and Macdonald were dead.   He was writing a eulogy for his father-in-law, Macdonald.  He said,

"The Macdonald-Raynor courses became famous all over America. Among the most famous are Piping Rock, the Merion Cricket Club at Philadelphia, the Country Club of Saint Louis, two beautiful courses at White Sulphur, the Lido (literally poured out of the lagoon), and that equally amazing Yale course at New Haven, which was hewn out of rock and forest at the expense of some seven hundred thousand dollars."


What makes the comment even stranger is that by 1939, the Merion Cricket Club last seen pre-construction on April 6th, 1911 by M&W on their second one day visit to the property (the previous was 10 months prior) was vastly different than the golf course that by 1939 had hosted 3 US Amateurs, 1 US Open, and was arguably the most famous course in the country by that time.

Nearly half the routing had completely changed, reems of bunkers had been added, whole greens moved and reconstructed and a series of major fundamental changes to the course had been applied over the course of nearly 30 years.

For Whigham to try to glom onto Merion's evolved fame to further Macdonald's legend at the time of his death was an unfortunate, if perhaps somewhat understandable gross exaggeration of his involvement.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Where in the definition that you are using does it LIMIT the definition of a "blueprint" to an "architectural plan or architectural drawing?"

You corrected an earlier post for leaving out the second section, yet you are COMPLETELY ignoring then the firs part of the definition that you provided, "Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc."

One can have a blueprint showing a contour plan ONLY both today and back then...

[Tom MacWood]

It was a contour map with an architectural plan on it. Which is why Oakley called it a blue print in his response back, and why they both referred to it as a blue print in the subsequent letters. Being employed by the Department of Agriculture no doubt Oakley had seen a few contour maps.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Where in the definition that you are using does it LIMIT the definition of a "blueprint" to an "architectural plan or architectural drawing?"

You corrected an earlier post for leaving out the second section, yet you are COMPLETELY ignoring then the firs part of the definition that you provided, "Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc."

One can have a blueprint showing a contour plan ONLY both today and back then...

Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action

Take your pick, any of the variations will do.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Cullum,

You're missing the point.

If not for the parsing of words, exactly what evidence would exist that Hugh Wilson didn't design Merion?

From "laid out", to "approximate", to "your", to "blueprint", the circus goes round and round...

[DMoriarty]

John Collum,

Whigham included the course on a list of courses designed by either Macdonald, Raynor, or both in a long, detailed, and account of Macdonald's life and his impact on golf in America entitled "the Evangelist of Golf."  It is included in George Bahto's excellent book by same title in its entirety.   You can read it there.

Unlike Mike, H.J. Whigham was there and knew first-hand what CBM's role was.  

Mike likes to dismiss Whigham as if he were some overemotional , greiving fool who couldn't help but spout fibs at a funeral.  At one point Mike took to calling him a "fucking liar.'   But this is inaccurate and incredibly insulting to the memory or a great man, but this is is nonsense.  Whigham knew the difference between fact and fiction.    Among other things Whigham was a well respected author, reporter, war correspondent, and an editor who wrote this sort of thing as part of his job.  For example, he also the obituary and remembrance of Teddy Roosevelt for the same magazine for which he served as editor-in-chief.  

You may want to ask Mike or anyone else what to see where Hugh Wilson, Macdonald, Whigham, or anyone else wrote that Hugh Wilson designed Merion.   

[John_Cullum]

John Cullum,

You're missing the point.

If not for the parsing of words, exactly what evidence would exist that Hugh Wilson didn't design Merion?

Here is some:

Wilson really was a complete novice and needed some expert guidance. His committee in fact had McDonald come visit the property in the very early stages, and he clearly particpated in some degree.


It all seemed to come together very rapidly, again, something a inexperienced designer/builder would have a difficult time doing.


Whigham put it on the list of McDonald courses in 1939.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom,

Where in the definition that you are using does it LIMIT the definition of a "blueprint" to an "architectural plan or architectural drawing?"

You corrected an earlier post for leaving out the second section, yet you are COMPLETELY ignoring then the firs part of the definition that you provided, "Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc."

One can have a blueprint showing a contour plan ONLY both today and back then...

Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action

Take your pick, any of the variations will do.

Tom

You again forget to read the word "also" in the middle of the above sentence, and also this time forget to include tghe first defining sentence which says that a blue print is "a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper."

To say that in 1911 (or even 1913) a blueprint referred to only "architectural drawings" is naive, dishonest or illiterate.  Take your pick.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Cullum,

You're missing the point.

If not for the parsing of words, exactly what evidence would exist that Hugh Wilson didn't design Merion?

Here is some:

Wilson really was a complete novice and needed some expert guidance. His committee in fact had McDonald come visit the property in the very early stages, and he clearly particpated in some degree.


It all seemed to come together very rapidly, again, something a inexperienced designer/builder would have a difficult time doing.


Whigham put it on the list of McDonald courses in 1939.

John,

The only thing I'd contest is your second statement, and part of your first.

From what we know, the planning/routing process took at least 3.5 months, but even that was simply to get 18 tees, fairways, and greens located.

When the course opened in Fall 1912 basically everyone called it a work in progress, with very little bunkering and very litlte in the way of details.  

It "came together" over a period of about five years.

Second, as far as a complete novice, he was in terms of construction and agronomy.

On the other hand, going back as far as  the 1890s when he won the first club championship at what is today Aronimink, to his years at Princeton playing many of the best courses in America at the time, including a stint on the Green Commitee there while they were building a new golf course, to his days playing as one of Philly's top amateurs against other cities, Hugh Wilson was well versed in the game and probably in the top 5% of golfers in the country as far as being well-travelled.

Let's not forget that basically EVERYONE back then were novices, including CB Macdonald who had just spent 4 years trying to get National built and opened from the start of the routing process.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Where in the definition that you are using does it LIMIT the definition of a "blueprint" to an "architectural plan or architectural drawing?"

You corrected an earlier post for leaving out the second section, yet you are COMPLETELY ignoring then the firs part of the definition that you provided, "Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc."

One can have a blueprint showing a contour plan ONLY both today and back then...

Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action

Take your pick, any of the variations will do.

Tom

You again forget to read the word "also" in the middle of the above sentence, and also this time forget to include tghe first defining sentence which says that a blue print is "a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper."

To say that in 1911 (or even 1913) a blueprint referred to only "architectural drawings" is naive, dishonest or illiterate.  Take your pick.

Rich
You have been most unkind since my return, what's eating you?

I agree the strict defintion of blue print is "a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper." It was the strict defintion then and it is the strict definition now, but its not the common use of the word.

[Michael Blake]

Is questioning the 'novices' Neville/Grant or Fownes and their home-run designs next?

[Tom MacWood]

Neville/Grant? Was Neville/Grant's version of PBGL considered a great course?

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

As I always have, I'm just trying to honestly express my feelings about what you (and others) say when what is said is not helpful to proper discourse on this forum, IMO.  If you find my honesty to be unkind, so be it.  I'll leave you alone for now.

Rich

[Niall C]

Tom

Apologies for getting you mixed up with David earlier on. Just so I get you right, are you saying that blueprint = architectural drawing, and that as a "blank" contour map/plan isn't an architectural drawing, there must have been some sort of "architectural drawings" on the contour map/plan to make Oakley refer to it as a blueprint ? Did I get that correct ?

Niall

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