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DMoriarty

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2425 on: July 08, 2009, 05:10:57 PM »
Ok...I hate myself for stepping in and will have to go back to Step One but...


Niall,

Golf House Road wasn't built until July 1911, five months after the contour map was sent and David knows that fact full well.

Also, there is a 1928 Survey Map of the Merion property on BLUEPRINT in the Merion Archives but only the property bounds and buildings are shown...not a single golf hole. 

Back to rehab...  :-\

Geez Mike, did you come back just to falsely accuse me of misrepresenting the the facts?   Golf House Road shows up in a deed in July 15, 1910.  So it was built by July  15 1910, not necessarily in July 1910.   That means it was built some time BEFORE July 15, 1910.    It is bad enough that you constantly chirp false information, but it is too much that you repeatedly try and impugn me with information you don't understand.   

________________________________________________________


Wayne  Morrison,   

Nice to have you back, if only through Mike.   What is the purpose of the 1928 blueprint?   Does it involve growing in the fairways, greens, and rough?    Because I'd think they would identify the fairways greens and roughs on a map intended to help them figure out how to grow grass on the fairways greens and roughs.    Or was it just a survey to figure out what they owned and what they didn't own, so they could figure out whether they could stretch some of the tees (like 16 and 10) back?   By the way, where was the property line behind 10 at this time?

One other thing.  While the 1929 deed only concerned a small portion of the property, the 16th tees are marked on the blueprint.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2426 on: July 09, 2009, 01:42:48 AM »

Regarding the term "golf course", over here in the UK that refers to everything within the boundary of the course bearing in mind that the vast majority of courses in the UK are self contained and without any housing inbetween fairways etc. In other words just like Merion. I have read nothing different in newspaper articles and writings of the time that suggests it was any different back then.

With regards to when a golf course becomes a golf course, I don't think it is uncommon regarding new courses that once the site is identified, secured and going forward that it is henceforth referred to as the "golf course". Again I don't think anything has changed over time.


Niall
The same is true over here. The entire property is often referred to as the golf course, and its not unusual to refer to a planned or staked out course as the golf course either. However it is unusual to refer to a virgin unplanned parcel of land as a golf course. I don't recall ever seeing the term used in that way. Can you cite any examples? It is usually referred to as land or property or site. Those were the terms used by Barker, Macdonald, Lesley and the newspaper articles prior to December 1910.

Here are some samples of how Wilson used it:

February 1, 1911 Wilson to Piper "If by chance you are coming up to Philadelphia, I sincerely hope that you will look us up, for it would be a great opportunity for us to take you out to the Course and have a chance to talk the matter over with you."

February 8, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I sincerely hope that you will get up to Philadelphia and if you do, please let me know a day or so in advance and I will arrange to take you out and go over the course with you....at present about half the Course has very fair turf, and the other half has been used as a corn field."

March 13, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I have just retuned from a couple of days spent with Mr. McDonald at the National Golf Course. I certainly enjoyed having an opportunity of going over the Course and seeing his experiments with different grasses. He is coming in a couple of weeks to help us with some good advice, and we had hoped that you would be up before this and have delayed sending you samples of the soil on that account. I expect to get them this week, however, and will forward them to you. Mr. McDonald showed me several pamphlets in regard to grasses and fertilizers, and I will be very much obliged if you will send me nay that you think would help us out on the New Course,"

March 14, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am sending you under separate cover samples of soil taken from the new Merion Course. I am also sending you blue print showing the locations from which the samples were taken."

March 23, 1911 Oakley to Wilson "I think the whole course needs liming...I judge, however, that this feature [putting greens] of the course is not the important one at present time, and that you are mostly interested in getting the fair greens in playable condition."

March 27, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "If you will let me know a day or two before you come to Philadelphia, I will arrange to go out the Course and go over it with you."

April 5, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am very glad that you are coming up to Philadelphia and will go over the Course with us"

May 9, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "Many thanks and kindness yesterday in going over the Course with me and answering so many questions."

May 10, 1911 Oakley to Wilson "I certainly enjoyed my trip with you to the new golf course Monday, and am only sorry that I did not have more time to go into the various phases of the work.

June 15, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am enclosing you copy of a letter from Mr. Macdonald. Mr. Beale who, as you know, is the grass expert of Carters & Co, spent an afternoon with us and I told Mr. Macdonald to have him talk freely and criticize the Course in any way he possibly could."

July 11, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I want to talk these matters over with you and hope that you will be able to get up pretty soon and look over the Course. It is quite a different proposition than when you last saw it."

September 20, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I enclose some grass and will be obliged if you could tell me what it is. It looks to me like a good thing to plant on the sides of the Course." (the fairways and greens were seeded between 9/1 and 9/15)




Tom,

That's quite a bit of transcribing.  Do you suppose that Wilson, being just a novice, may not have understood that the experts used terms such as property, site, etc until there was a plan, and not "course"?  Perhaps he simply thought of the property as his future course, even in a virgin unplanned state.  Sometimes a word is just a word.



Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2427 on: July 09, 2009, 02:13:12 AM »

.................

 


______________________________________________________________________________

Bryan Wrote:
I, for one, find it doubtful that M&W "approved" the final plan rather than "approved of" meaning liked best.  I thought perhaps on reconsideration that Tom might rather have used my interpretation of liked.  In any event, short of the minutes that describe the event, this point will remain debatable anyway.

Bryan,  I don't get this?   You asked for quotes from TEPaul and I gave you a handful and they are consistent in their use. In each one, he has Macdonald and Whigham approving the plan.  He even wrote that they selected the plan.    He even notes that it was "more than possible" that they even made substantive changes to the plans they reviewed, thus necessitating that a substantively different plan than the five went to the Board.  

Also, TEPaul supposedly read the passage to Shivas, and Shivas latched on to the fact that CBM had approved the plan and in particular to the word "approved."   So I think we can safely assume TEPaul's supposed transcription says that they approved the plan.  

Have you seen something I haven't that makes you believe that M&W did not approve (or select) the plan as TEPaul has repeatedly claimed?   TEPaul and Wayne already selectively dole out information, surpressing most of what might hurt them.   Are we to supress the information he has given us when it might cut against him?   Doing so would only extend the charade.


Here again is how TEPaul put it:

. . . Macdonald/Whigam returned to Merion for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over their plans and went over the ground and stated that they would approve of a particular plan as they felt it contained what would be the best seven holes of any inland course in the world! . . . Macdonald also suggested . . . that Merion should acquire that 3 acres behind the clubhouse which belonged to the P&W railroad . . . it is more than possible, although definitely not certain, that none of the five Merion plans on that day in April included that P&W land and that in fact may’ve been an architectural or conceptual suggestion that Macdonald/Whigam made on their own   . . .  Within two weeks, the plan that Macdonald/Whigam said they would approve of was taken to the board and considered and approved and that was the routing and design plan used to create the original Merion East.

TEPaul:
They only presented one plan after consulting with Macdonald/Whigam on that single day in early April 1911 about which the Wilson report (to the board) says Macdonald/Whigam approved the plan that they (Macdonald and Whigam) described as having a last seven holes equal to any inland course in the world.

TEPaul:
What we do know is the Wilson Committee report says that before visiting NGLA they had laid out many different courses and following their visit to NGLA the Wilson Committee then went home and rearranged the course and laid out five different plans. Then approximately three weeks later Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over the grounds and looked over the plans and said they would approve the plan they felt contained a last seven holes that were the equal to any inland course in the world. The report says the Wilson Committee sent that particular plan to Lesley and the board.

Quote from: TEPaul on September 09, 2008, 09:23:30 PM
Then with the day back at Ardmore on April 6, 1911 at which time Macdonald and Whigam looked over their ground again and what they had done with it with their final five plans and then they got them to approve one of their five plans they'd done since returning from NGLA which they took immediately to their board and had it approved and then proceded to build it.

Quote from: TEPaul on June 18, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
In early April Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day and went over the plans created by Wilson and his committee, they toured the grounds, they then selected one of those plans that they described as containing the best last seven holes of any inland course in the world (later reported in the newspaper). The committee gave that plan to the board and it was approved and construction began.
[/i]

David,


You've railed on for pages and posts that Tom is not to be trusted.  Now, you find one statement, repeated multiple times, that you approve of   ;), so, you now want to accept it.  I don't get that.  I'm working on first principles here.  I know of no organization that allows the consultant to approve anything.  They may recommend something, but the Board always makes the approval decision.  I think that M&W may well have selected one plan as the one they liked best, and recommended it, but approved it, I think not.  But, I'm not always right.

I think that in the first of Tom's quotes he actually gets it most correct (if you use my substitution of "liked" or even "recommended" in place of "approve of":

. . . Macdonald/Whigam returned to Merion for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over their plans and went over the ground and stated that they would approve of liked a particular plan as they felt it contained what would be the best seven holes of any inland course in the world! . . . ............  . . .  Within two weeks, the plan that Macdonald/Whigam said they would approve of liked was taken to the board and considered and approved and that was the routing and design plan used to create the original Merion East.

In any event, I do thank you for resurfacing the quotes.  Based on my first principles, I just think Tom has misstated this point,  On this point, I guess we'll disagree, and I stand to be corrected if we ever get to see the minutes or whatever other documents Tom was working from.

I take some comfort that I must be on the neutral high ground since I now have you, Tom Mac and Mike all disagreeing with me on various points.  ;D





Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2428 on: July 09, 2009, 02:19:38 AM »
Ok...I hate myself for stepping in and will have to go back to Step One but...


Niall,

Golf House Road wasn't built until July 1911, five months after the contour map was sent and David knows that fact full well.

Also, there is a 1928 Survey Map of the Merion property on BLUEPRINT in the Merion Archives but only the property bounds and buildings are shown...not a single golf hole. 

Back to rehab...  :-\

Geez Mike, did you come back just to falsely accuse me of misrepresenting the the facts?   Golf House Road shows up in a deed in July 15, 1910.  So it was built by July  15 1910, not necessarily in July 1910.   That means it was built some time BEFORE July 15, 1910.    It is bad enough that you constantly chirp false information, but it is too much that you repeatedly try and impugn me with information you don't understand.   

________________________________________________________


..........................



David,

Did you type 1910 by error multiple times above?  If not, to what deed are you referring that shows Golf House Road in July 15, 1910?





DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2429 on: July 09, 2009, 03:45:33 AM »
David,


You've railed on for pages and posts that Tom is not to be trusted.  Now, you find one statement, repeated multiple times, that you approve of   ;), so, you now want to accept it.  I don't get that.  I'm working on first principles here.  I know of no organization that allows the consultant to approve anything.  They may recommend something, but the Board always makes the approval decision.  I think that M&W may well have selected one plan as the one they liked best, and recommended it, but approved it, I think not.  But, I'm not always right.

First principles?   With all due respect, you are NOT working on first principles here, but are instead backing into your conclusion.  Your conclusion is based on your assumption that CBM was merely a consultant, therefor he could not have selected or approved the plan.     
- CBM was a consultant.
- Consultants don't approve anything.
- Therefore CBM didn't approve anything.
- Therefore TEPaul must not have meant what he wrote.


In other words you have already assumed what we are trying to determine; CBM's role at Merion.    But it is yet to be finally determined whether CBM was merely a consultant in the sense you describe.   We won't ever get to that point if we fudge our facts to fit our conclusion.   That's not your bailiwick. 

As for me railing on I am glad you noticed, because he is not to be trusted.   That is why we need to verify everything he says -- including this -- with the actual documents.   But unless and until we can do that, I have a first principle for you, two actually.  And they apply across the board, not just those who behave like TEPaul.
1.  Self-serving statements are inherently unreliable and should be disregarded unless independently verified.
2.  Statements made against one's own interest are generally much more reliable, and should be considered if there is no other way to verify the information. 

In other words, as a general rule, we should ignore  unverified information that is self-serving, but we should consider self-incrimatory information if better, verifiable information is unavailible.

And Bryan maybe you missed it above, but TEPaul read this passage to Shivas (or at least TEPaul claimed it was the passage) and the word wasn't "liked" it was "approved".   He approved the plan that was then presented to the board, and then the board approved it, presumably based on CBM's prior approval. 


I take some comfort that I must be on the neutral high ground since I now have you, Tom Mac and Mike all disagreeing with me on various points.  ;D

And here I thought that I had been disagreeing with you all along. 

___________________________________________

I did accidently type 1910 repeatedly, instead of 1911.  It was so long ago it is hard to keep track. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2430 on: July 09, 2009, 04:05:12 AM »
TEPaul, post 230 on the Findlay thread.
But with Shivas, tonight, on the phone, I speed-read the minute meeting text (prefacing that no one, NOT even a great "quick-study" lawyer could "audio-remember" the thing word for word. Shivas allowed previous and after to the fact that EVEN HE couldn't do that but he did, in fact, pick up and explain what he felt was the most important point of all or word----and most interestingly it was indeed, at least to me the most important point and word (AFTER I asked him to explain why a couple of time!  )---I ain't no lawyer and never wanted to be but nevertheless this is why we pay those guys as much as we do! It all revolved around the meaning and essential reality of the word "APPROVED" and what it means and couldn't mean in this Merion "laying out" and "plan" and "courses" Wilson report context----at least how it all pertained to what the reports and records say Macdonald did----ie "approved."

DSchmidt, post 231 same thread.
. . . I don't even remember the date of the meeting he was reading, but it was the meeting where the Board appoved the plan.  

I will say that from that single passage, and from one word in particular (a word that Tom actually didn't think was all that important until I told him why I thought it was not only important but damn near dispositive, as in "game, set, match"), I came to the immediate conclusion that there is no way CBM designed Merion - absent one theoretically possible extenuating circumstance that I raised with Tom, and does not appear to make sense in the context of the creation of Merion for practical business and club "political" reasons.  (And actually, now that I think about it:  make that two circumstances - it's possible that in subsequent meeting minutes, the statement in the minutes Tom read to me on the phone may have been corrected.  Tom, this is why, as DaveM correctly points out, partial records are dangerous things.  The Chicago Tribune once wrote "Dewey Defeats Truman", but they subsequently corrected it).

I agree with DaveM that one should not draw conclusions from a partial record without examining all other available documentation.  And I'm not willing to do that.  But I will say that based on what I know from my life (and, yes, legal) experience, it's completely illogical for me to believe that there is anything that will trump the fact that CBM "approved" one of the five plans that the Board considered.  He certainly had influence on the design, and he very well may have had great influence on the chosen design, but I can say with damn near absolute certainty that the guys around the table at that meeting (CBM included) did not consider the the chosen design to be CBM's work, and that it was not CBMs work.  

Why?  It's actually very simple and this is what I told Tom last night:  nobody "approves" their own work.  Has anybody ever heard of somebody saying "I hereby approve of what I just did", or "I hereby approve of my own work".  Of course not!  . . .
 

They are not equating "approved" or "approved of" with "liked."  The are equating it with "chose" or "selected" or "approved" in the sense that the board later "approved" the same plan.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Niall C

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2431 on: July 09, 2009, 06:44:03 AM »

Regarding the term "golf course", over here in the UK that refers to everything within the boundary of the course bearing in mind that the vast majority of courses in the UK are self contained and without any housing inbetween fairways etc. In other words just like Merion. I have read nothing different in newspaper articles and writings of the time that suggests it was any different back then.

With regards to when a golf course becomes a golf course, I don't think it is uncommon regarding new courses that once the site is identified, secured and going forward that it is henceforth referred to as the "golf course". Again I don't think anything has changed over time.


Niall
The same is true over here. The entire property is often referred to as the golf course, and its not unusual to refer to a planned or staked out course as the golf course either. However it is unusual to refer to a virgin unplanned parcel of land as a golf course. I don't recall ever seeing the term used in that way. Can you cite any examples? It is usually referred to as land or property or site. Those were the terms used by Barker, Macdonald, Lesley and the newspaper articles prior to December 1910.

Here are some samples of how Wilson used it:

February 1, 1911 Wilson to Piper "If by chance you are coming up to Philadelphia, I sincerely hope that you will look us up, for it would be a great opportunity for us to take you out to the Course and have a chance to talk the matter over with you."

February 8, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I sincerely hope that you will get up to Philadelphia and if you do, please let me know a day or so in advance and I will arrange to take you out and go over the course with you....at present about half the Course has very fair turf, and the other half has been used as a corn field."

March 13, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I have just retuned from a couple of days spent with Mr. McDonald at the National Golf Course. I certainly enjoyed having an opportunity of going over the Course and seeing his experiments with different grasses. He is coming in a couple of weeks to help us with some good advice, and we had hoped that you would be up before this and have delayed sending you samples of the soil on that account. I expect to get them this week, however, and will forward them to you. Mr. McDonald showed me several pamphlets in regard to grasses and fertilizers, and I will be very much obliged if you will send me nay that you think would help us out on the New Course,"

March 14, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am sending you under separate cover samples of soil taken from the new Merion Course. I am also sending you blue print showing the locations from which the samples were taken."

March 23, 1911 Oakley to Wilson "I think the whole course needs liming...I judge, however, that this feature [putting greens] of the course is not the important one at present time, and that you are mostly interested in getting the fair greens in playable condition."

March 27, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "If you will let me know a day or two before you come to Philadelphia, I will arrange to go out the Course and go over it with you."

April 5, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am very glad that you are coming up to Philadelphia and will go over the Course with us"

May 9, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "Many thanks and kindness yesterday in going over the Course with me and answering so many questions."

May 10, 1911 Oakley to Wilson "I certainly enjoyed my trip with you to the new golf course Monday, and am only sorry that I did not have more time to go into the various phases of the work.

June 15, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am enclosing you copy of a letter from Mr. Macdonald. Mr. Beale who, as you know, is the grass expert of Carters & Co, spent an afternoon with us and I told Mr. Macdonald to have him talk freely and criticize the Course in any way he possibly could."

July 11, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I want to talk these matters over with you and hope that you will be able to get up pretty soon and look over the Course. It is quite a different proposition than when you last saw it."

September 20, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I enclose some grass and will be obliged if you could tell me what it is. It looks to me like a good thing to plant on the sides of the Course." (the fairways and greens were seeded between 9/1 and 9/15)



Thanks David. They way Wilson refers to the property/site as a course when it is pre-construction/during construction is what I was referring to. I'll try and dig out some stuff that I've got although I'm down at the Open from Saturday onwards, and have work I need to get out the door before then, so really shouldn't be on GCA at the moment but there you go. These Merion threads are so addictive ! I'll ping on some articles when I get the chance.

Niall

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2432 on: July 09, 2009, 06:47:20 AM »


Tom,

That's quite a bit of transcribing.  Do you suppose that Wilson, being just a novice, may not have understood that the experts used terms such as property, site, etc until there was a plan, and not "course"?  Perhaps he simply thought of the property as his future course, even in a virgin unplanned state.  Sometimes a word is just a word.




Bryan
That was my initial reaction. Boy this guy is a real odd ball. But then I thought about the reference to the blue print (aka architectural drawing) and Cuyler's earlier mention of a golf course and I came to another conclusion. You are correct Wilson was a self admitted novice, "The members of the committee had played golf for many years, but the experience of each in construction and greenkeeping was only that of an average club member," but he had been playing golf for more than a decade, so one can presume he was relatively well read on the subject, and knew the common terminology.

In a letter to Oakley discussing the new West course Wilson wrote,"We are rather wondering whether it would be better on some of our land, such as is in wheat and in turf, to plow or only disc-harrow before seeding."

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2433 on: July 09, 2009, 06:57:27 AM »

Thanks David. They way Wilson refers to the property/site as a course when it is pre-construction/during construction is what I was referring to. I'll try and dig out some stuff that I've got although I'm down at the Open from Saturday onwards, and have work I need to get out the door before then, so really shouldn't be on GCA at the moment but there you go. These Merion threads are so addictive ! I'll ping on some articles when I get the chance.

Niall

Niall
I agree. Wilson does use the term in pre-construction/during construction manner, but that is not what you have been claiming. I said Wilson was referring to planned or staked out golf course on February 1, and you said there was no plan.

Good luck finding your example.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2434 on: July 09, 2009, 07:07:23 AM »
Ok...I hate myself for stepping in and will have to go back to Step One but...


Niall,

Golf House Road wasn't built until July 1911, five months after the contour map was sent and David knows that fact full well.

Also, there is a 1928 Survey Map of the Merion property on BLUEPRINT in the Merion Archives but only the property bounds and buildings are shown...not a single golf hole. 

Back to rehab...  :-\

Geez Mike, did you come back just to falsely accuse me of misrepresenting the the facts?   Golf House Road shows up in a deed in July 15, 1910.  So it was built by July  15 1910, not necessarily in July 1910.   That means it was built some time BEFORE July 15, 1910.    It is bad enough that you constantly chirp false information, but it is too much that you repeatedly try and impugn me with information you don't understand.   


Mike/David,

I'm not going to get involved in whether GHR was or was not built/concieved or whatever because its not really relevant to what was shown on the contour map. As I said previously, landmarks/buildings/roads may or may not have been on it although I think it reasonable to think they were. It may also have shown proposed roads although probably not. Either way I don't think it was relevant to what Wilson was trying to convey.

What was Wilson trying to convey ? Having had a quick scan of the first couple of letters between Wilson and P&O, the first thing I note is that the plan was referred to as the contour plan. It wasn't referred to as anything else. Also it was sent before Wilson had a taken any soil samples. My conclusion - Wilson wanted P&O to see the contours of the site/property/course presumably for general reference purposes. Maybe he didn't know what P&O would be able to make of it but as it was all he had he sent it anyway. That last bits speculation on my part but I don't think the plan was that significant to P&O judging by the correspondence. P&O suggest Wilson send them some typical soil samples, they don't reference where on the site but asked for the various types (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have a copy of the letters in front of me).

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2435 on: July 09, 2009, 07:19:26 AM »

Thanks David. They way Wilson refers to the property/site as a course when it is pre-construction/during construction is what I was referring to. I'll try and dig out some stuff that I've got although I'm down at the Open from Saturday onwards, and have work I need to get out the door before then, so really shouldn't be on GCA at the moment but there you go. These Merion threads are so addictive ! I'll ping on some articles when I get the chance.

Niall

Niall
I agree. Wilson does use the term in pre-construction/during construction manner, but that is not what you have been claiming. I said Wilson was referring to planned or staked out golf course on February 1, and you said there was no plan.

Good luck finding your example.

Tom

I don't think I did say that. Without going back through what I wrote I would guess that I gave an opinion on what might or might not be on the plan and in doing that I'm pretty sure I didn't rule anything out. However I'm fairly certain that I didn't give an opinion as to dates because I haven't been logging the timeline that closely.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2436 on: July 09, 2009, 07:30:26 AM »


At the very least, these letters should create a strong presumption that there was a course designated on that blueprint, because that is what the letters say.

David

On the basis that we agree the blueprint is the contour plan, I haven't seen anything in the first couple of letters where the blueprint/contour plan is referenced which suggests that a course routing or any other course details are shown on it. Wilson refers to the property as the course in several of his letters as highlighted by Tom but I haven't found anything where he refers to the course as shown on the plan. Is it in any of the subsequent letters or in any that haven't been posted yet ?

Niall

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2437 on: July 09, 2009, 08:24:27 AM »
"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

Niall
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. I went back and re-read your posts and you did say there may have been planned golf coursee circa 2/1/1911. At the time I was focused on your claim that I was using the term 'blue print' in a modern manner....to support your arument that there was no architectural plan on the contour map. We now know -- from Webster's 1913 dictionary -- a reproduction of an architectural drawing or architectural plan was its common use back then too.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:00:51 AM by Tom MacWood »

Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2438 on: July 09, 2009, 08:45:26 AM »
Tom

As I have said now (twice) above, that phrase.....

.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

.....is NOT included in my 1907 Webster's (which is a very inclusive tome weighing ~16 pounds--or 1 stone 2 for you Brits out there).

I doubt if anybody other than you and Dave M. think that when referring to a "blue print" the correspondents are speaking of anything but a contour plan. I have have read no evidence of your interpretation of these references other than your dreams.

Rich


Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2439 on: July 09, 2009, 08:55:59 AM »
Tom,

That's quite a bit of transcribing.  Do you suppose that Wilson, being just a novice, may not have understood that the experts used terms such as property, site, etc until there was a plan, and not "course"?  Perhaps he simply thought of the property as his future course, even in a virgin unplanned state.  Sometimes a word is just a word. - Bryan Izatt



Bryan
That was my initial reaction. Boy this guy is a real odd ball. But then I thought about the reference to the blue print (aka architectural drawing) and Cuyler's earlier mention of a golf course and I came to another conclusion. You are correct Wilson was a self admitted novice, "The members of the committee had played golf for many years, but the experience of each in construction and greenkeeping was only that of an average club member," but he had been playing golf for more than a decade, so one can presume he was relatively well read on the subject, and knew the common terminology.

In a letter to Oakley discussing the new West course Wilson wrote,"We are rather wondering whether it would be better on some of our land, such as is in wheat and in turf, to plow or only disc-harrow before seeding." - Tom MacWood




mmpppphffffff...mmpsssssfppppppppppppfssssssmmmmmmmmmmpffffffffffffffffffff....  :-X    ;)







« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:02:28 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2440 on: July 09, 2009, 09:05:38 AM »

.....is NOT included in my 1907 Webster's (which is a very inclusive tome weighing ~16 pounds--or 1 stone 2 for you Brits out there).


Rich
I believe you. And I can understand why you thought we were taking a modern use of the word and projecting it into the past, but we now know (based on Webster's 1913) that was not the case. It was a common use of the word back then as well.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2441 on: July 09, 2009, 09:09:16 AM »
Mike
If you are trying to make the point Wilson was not an odd ball and was well aware of the common use of the words 'land', 'site', 'property' and 'golf course' I agree with you. Thank you for helping to make my point.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2442 on: July 09, 2009, 09:10:30 AM »
I know the Wilson letters are among the few direct specific items of fact we have from this event, but would it not make sense and be quite shrewd of Hugh Wilson to initiate the conversation with Piper and Oakley as though the property were a blank slate? In other words, why impinge their objective analysis of the property with the location of greens or tees regardless of whether or not they were already placed?

If P&O had great concerns about a "section" for some scientific reason, Wilson wouldn't want to dissuade tham from voicing it by suggesting he already had a green placed there...

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2443 on: July 09, 2009, 09:14:26 AM »
Mike
You are our resident Hugh Wilson expert. Is there a reason why you continually avoid answering my questions regarding Wilson's history on the green committee? Is it a sore subject for some reason?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2444 on: July 09, 2009, 09:26:41 AM »
I know the Wilson letters are among the few direct specific items of fact we have from this event, but would it not make sense and be quite shrewd of Hugh Wilson to initiate the conversation with Piper and Oakley as though the property were a blank slate? In other words, why impinge their objective analysis of the property with the location of greens or tees regardless of whether or not they were already placed?

If P&O had great concerns about a "section" for some scientific reason, Wilson wouldn't want to dissuade tham from voicing it by suggesting he already had a green placed there...

As Wilson explained in his 1916 account (confirmed with the letters) their entire focus was on establishing turf for fairways and greens -- the treatment of the ground, the use of lime and manure, the purchase of lime and manure, the different types of grass considered, the purchase of grass seed, these were all related to fariways and greens. The first question regarding potential rough grasses was mid-September after the golf course had been sown.

Why would you conduct random tests of ground that would never be fairway or greens?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:29:00 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2445 on: July 09, 2009, 09:27:50 AM »
Tom,

I did answer your question two pages ago.   Here you go again, with an additional comment...


As far as the Green Committee questions, I don't know the answer to either question, honestly.

I do know that by December 1914 he was so taxed by his work at Merion and subsequent design/build jobs at Merion West, Seaview, Philmont, and North Hills, as well as his work for Robert Lesley's GAP Committee charged with locating a site for Philly's first public course that he resigned as Chairman of the Green Committee, citing the need to focus on his his business affairs.   After all, he wasn't a professional golf course architect although by virtue of what he was able to accomplish with his design at Merion East, apparently industry titans Robert Lesley, Clarence Geist, Ellis Gimbel, Franklin Meehan, and others in the area like Tillinghast and George Thomas as well as all of the golf writers in the city sure treated him like one immediately afterwards.

Despite his resignation and plan to focus on business, in January 1915 Robert Lesley (who was now President of GAP) picked Wilson again to lead a committee...this time to design and construct the public course at Cobb's Creek, which he accepted and spent several months on.


Why do you think the blueprint of Merion from 1928 doesn't have any golf holes drawn on it?  

Why do you think based on hundreds of letters WIlson and Oakley exchanged there is not a single mention of any golf tee, fairway, green, or hole location on any plan or any contour map or any blueprint?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:54:33 AM by MCirba »

Rich Goodale

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2446 on: July 09, 2009, 09:28:35 AM »
Tom

Your 1913 definition only says that "blue print" is "now also applied" as a generic term for architectural drawings of any type.  This does not mean that any reference to "blue print" must relate to an architectural drawing (NB the word "also").  Any such reference could also relate to other sorts of drawings normally drawn in those days using the "blue print" process, such as contour maps.  In the case of the correspondence between Oakley, Piper, Wilson et. al. this later possibility seems far more likely than your interpretation, given the lack of any reference to "architectural drawings" in those letters and absent any other evidence that a "blueprint" of the Merion East course existed in those early days, whether drawn by Barker, Macdonald, Wilson or anybody else.

Rich

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2447 on: July 09, 2009, 09:37:12 AM »
Think of blueprints the same as Xerox. Its a process.  It was replaced by blue line prints, done with a coated paper and ammonia by the 1970's.  And, with large scale Xerox and now inkjet printers and CAD, replaced again.

However, in any reprodutive era, I have personally prepared base maps, contour maps, soil testing maps (with lettered references), routing maps, construction maps, etc.

Using the phrase "blueprint" to say what kind of drawing is on there is among the dumbest things I have heard argued on this thread.  It just isn't so, and I am surprised to hear Tom MacWood argue it, because he had some Landscape Architecture training and would know that.  That he is using this argument, when he really knows better, is dumbfounding to me, really.  It is just another example of how absurd this thread is.

All just MHO of course.  But I have prepared prints at many, many stages of the design process. Of course, if you want to take someone elses word for it that I am sadly out of touch with what went on back then, so be it.

I spent yesterday touring Cape Arundel golf club in Maine, a nearly untouched Travis course. Like Wilson and his committee, "I learned more in one day there than in my many years of participating on Merion threads" about what golf cousres were like in the early 1900's.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2448 on: July 09, 2009, 09:43:41 AM »

To hold Piper, Oakley, Wilson etc. to more contemporary definitions of the word(s) is either disingenuous or deceitful, IMO.


Rich
This what you wrote. You were wrong....on several levels

The 1913 dictionary said the term was long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, "now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus a plan, or outline of a plan of action." Take you pick, reproduction of architectural drawings OR an architectural plan OR a plan OR an outline of a plan of action, for our case any of the meanings will do.  
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:48:09 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #2449 on: July 09, 2009, 09:44:50 AM »
Think of blueprints the same as Xerox. Its a process.  It was replaced by blue line prints, done with a coated paper and ammonia by the 1970's.  And, with large scale Xerox and now inkjet printers and CAD, replaced again.

However, in any reprodutive era, I have personally prepared base maps, contour maps, soil testing maps (with lettered references), routing maps, construction maps, etc.

Using the phrase "blueprint" to say what kind of drawing is on there is among the dumbest things I have heard argued on this thread.  It just isn't so, and I am surprised to hear Tom MacWood argue it, because he had some Landscape Architecture training and would know that.  That he is using this argument, when he really knows better, is dumbfounding to me, really.  It is just another example of how absurd this thread is.

All just MHO of course.  But I have prepared prints at many, many stages of the design process. Of course, if you want to take someone elses word for it that I am sadly out of touch with what went on back then, so be it.

I spent yesterday touring Cape Arundel golf club in Maine, a nearly untouched Travis course. Like Wilson and his committee, "I learned more in one day there than in my many years of participating on Merion threads" about what golf cousres were like in the early 1900's.

Jeff,

Like we mentioned previously, at this point we could find a dated routing map signed by Hugh Wilson and attested to by Mother Theresa and there are a few here who would argue either 1) forgery 2) that either Barker's and/or M&W's and/or ANYBODY BUT HUGH WILSON, including members of Wilson's own freaking committee who reported to him designed it instead.   ::)

Absurd doesn't even begin to describe this thread at this stage...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 09:46:52 AM by MCirba »

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