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Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1600 on: June 15, 2009, 11:50:06 AM »
Bryan,

I know you're trying to ask the same thing different ways but what do we know as fact here?

I'd suggest that among the things we know is that the Land Plan does not measure 117 acres as portrayed and the other fact is that the approximate location of road was the only variable boundary.

Are we in agreement on those two points?

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1601 on: June 15, 2009, 12:04:59 PM »
Jim,

The land area you're asking about measures out to 108.5 acres...much larger than the 100 acres David was hoping for.

The entire rectangle above the Haverford College boundary is 10.5 acres, with 4.8 acres used as 'the triangle" you mentioned.

You say "how very close it actually ended up being..", but it's really not as I'll show shortly.

Back on that Land Plan it was about 100 yards x 327 yards wide.   Today it is 130 yards by 190 yards.   That is not close.

On the July 26, 1911 deed the dimensions are about 130 yards by 327 yards.  The property goes all the way to College.  So, they are reasonably close to the plan of property map that was purely illustrative.   ;)

To your other question...

I believe the swap clearly happened after that 1910 Land Plan was drawn and the fact that the boundary on that western side up to and including the triangle land changed so much between the time the Land Plan was drawn and what got eventually built virtually proves it had to have happened later.

Mike, could you restate your theory on what was swapped.  Last I recall you thought it was a slice along the 14th green/15th fairway for a slice down opposite the clubhouse.  And, that it was a like-for-like sized swap.  And, that Francis misstated in saying it was 130 x 190 yards.  But, my recall on your position is fuzzy at best. 

All,

Please allow me to illustrate further.

After asking the question last night about the parallel, "doppelganger" road drawn through the Real Estate Portion of land on that 1912 map, and asking if that also was based on some supposed existing golf course routing, I went back and read what Francis wrote again and was struck by a number of things.

First, he says that "the Land now covered in fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long...".

I got to wondering what he is talking about because the entire stretch along Golf House Road from Ardmore to College Avenue is covered with "fine homes".   So, that got me thinking....what did that property look like in 1950 when Francis spoke?

Unfortunately, no luck...the length of the road was pretty developed then, as well.  

But something else kept bugging me.    If they already had a surveyor with Pugh and Hubbard who drew thiese Land Plans, then why would they need Richard Francis on the Comimittee?

Maybe Pugh and Hubbard were land surveyors for deed purposes, and perhaps Merion wanted an in-house surveyor for surveying the holes from the plans onto the ground.

Or put better, if Francis was already out there surveying before the November 1910 Land Plan, why didn't they just use HIS maps?

More importantly, the "doppelganger road" kept troubling me, as well, so I wanted to go back and see if THAT road got built to the initial spec as drawn on the 1910 Land Plan.

Alas, it was off, as well.

Here is the 1910 Land Plan showing both proposed "approximate" roads followed by a 1948 Railroad Map of the same terrirory showing the roads as they were actually built.




Now, here's the "as built" in 1948.




Finally, let me try to draw something that creates the original intended "doppelganger" effect...

If you're going to persist in free hand drawing of the road for illustrative purposes, could you at least try to get it approximately in the right place in the triangle.  It certainly doesn't go up the middle of it.   ;)




I really think we're looking at the Francis Land Swap right here.

Right where?  Could you explain what it is you're seeing in this picture as the swap, because I don't see what you're trying to say.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1602 on: June 15, 2009, 12:18:40 PM »
Bryan,

I know you're trying to ask the same thing different ways but what do we know as fact here?

I'd suggest that among the things we know is that the Land Plan does not measure 117 acres as portrayed and the other fact is that the approximate location of road was the only variable boundary.

Are we in agreement on those two points?

Yes, I agree that the Land Plan does not measure 117 acres.

No, I don't agree that the approximate location of the road was the only variable boundary.  If we're going to state facts, then I'd rather state that the variable boundary was in the northeastern section of the Johnson farm, since you think the road is purely illustrative and we don't know where the boundary was of the 117 acres that  they said they "secured" before November 15, 1910.

Do you agree that the Francis swap area measures 4.8 acres, and on July 26, 1911 extended up to College?

Do you think that the swap was like-for-like size?

 

 

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1603 on: June 15, 2009, 12:20:13 PM »
Bryan,

I think we're jumping all over the place and I'm sorry if I'm opening too many doors here.

We should probably start with each "fact" examine it, and then see if we can conclude anything from that fact.

I suggest we start with two "facts" and perhaps lets see if we agree there before moving forward.

1) The area of the November 1910 Land Plan measures larger than the 117 acres it is purported to be.   If you agree, could you provide again the exact acreage you believe it measure out to?

2) The only moveable boundary between Nov 1910 and July 1911 that could account for any difference, much less a supposed net gain of 3 acres between what they "secured" and what was eventually purchased in July 1911, is the northwestern boundary along Golf House Road, and north of it at the very top.

Are we in agreement?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1604 on: June 15, 2009, 12:28:38 PM »

Yes, I agree that the Land Plan does not measure 117 acres.

No, I don't agree that the approximate location of the road was the only variable boundary.  If we're going to state facts, then I'd rather state that the variable boundary was in the northeastern section of the Johnson farm, since you think the road is purely illustrative and we don't know where the boundary was of the 117 acres that  they said they "secured" before November 15, 1910.

Do you agree that the Francis swap area measures 4.8 acres, and on July 26, 1911 extended up to College?

Do you think that the swap was like-for-like size?
 

Ooops...our posts crossed.

Ok...at least we agree that the November 1910 Land Plan didn't measure at 117 acres...could you remind me what it measured at?   Was it around 122?   Thanks!

I think the road was more than illustrative...I think it was "approximate", but also known to be a moveable boundary as necessary.   It may also have been a "working boundary".

In actuality, I do believe it is much closer to a representation of reality than either David and Jim S. do.    I do believe that it represents the original land being looked at for golf course including 327 yards all the way up to College Avenue, which they seem to tend to want to forget is there.

I think they are the ones who want it both ways...proving that some triangle exists while asking us not to look at the actual dimensions very closely.

I also believe that it was meant to largely shadow the "doppelganger" proposed road through the Real Estate property as illustrated on that Nov Land Plan, as seen below.

I just think that Francis and Company found out that this proposal didn't work very well for fitting the golf course, largely because of the quarry.




To your other questions...

Do you agree that the Francis swap area measures 4.8 acres, and on July 26, 1911 extended up to College?

I agree that the area in play today as the course was built measures 4.8 acres of what was originally a 10.5 acre rectangle extending north to College Ave.   I do not understand what you mean in the second part of your question, because I did not understand you to ever say that the final deed" extended that far north in 1911 after the final purchase.

Could you explain further?

Do you think that the swap was like-for-like size?

I'm not certain.   I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was, or that additional acreage was needed, or that some was given back from what was drawn on the 1910 Land Plan, especially if that measures out at over 120 acres.


I've certainly not been shy in drawing out what I think happened...do you have any theories of your own now that you've looked at both the timelines and acreages in detail?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 12:35:54 PM by MCirba »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1605 on: June 15, 2009, 12:34:04 PM »
One more fact to consider.  According to the July 26, 1911 Indenture (below) Golf House Road was built, but not named yet, by that date.  Working back from that date, when would the road have to have been surveyed in it's final form to allow it to be built by July 1911.  Would it have been gravel, or paved.  In either case could it have been built in 3 months between April and July?  Or does the building season in PA begin earlier than April (given it was a reputedly rough winter that year)? 







Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1606 on: June 15, 2009, 12:39:41 PM »


Bryan,

Tough to tell if that's gravel or paved...

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1607 on: June 15, 2009, 12:52:36 PM »

Yes, I agree that the Land Plan does not measure 117 acres.

No, I don't agree that the approximate location of the road was the only variable boundary.  If we're going to state facts, then I'd rather state that the variable boundary was in the northeastern section of the Johnson farm, since you think the road is purely illustrative and we don't know where the boundary was of the 117 acres that  they said they "secured" before November 15, 1910.

Do you agree that the Francis swap area measures 4.8 acres, and on July 26, 1911 extended up to College?

Do you think that the swap was like-for-like size?
 

Ooops...our posts crossed.

Ok...at least we agree that the November 1910 Land Plan didn't measure at 117 acres...could you remind me what it measured at?   Was it around 122?   Thanks!

I think the road was more than illustrative...I think it was "approximate", but also known to be a moveable boundary as necessary.   It may also have been a "working boundary".

In actuality, I do believe it is much closer to a representation of reality than either David and Jim S. do.    I do believe that it represents the original land being looked at for golf course including 327 yards all the way up to College Avenue, which they seem to tend to want to forget is there.

I think they are the ones who want it both ways...proving that some triangle exists while asking us not to look at the actual dimensions very closely.

I also believe that it was meant to largely shadow the "doppelganger" proposed road through the Real Estate property as illustrated on that Nov Land Plan, as seen below.

I don't really understand your obsession with the "doppelganger" thing.  I don't think it adds anything material to the discussion.

I just think that Francis and Company found out that this proposal didn't work very well for fitting the golf course, largely because of the quarry.

.......................

To your other questions...

Do you agree that the Francis swap area measures 4.8 acres, and on July 26, 1911 extended up to College?

I agree that the area in play today as the course was built measures 4.8 acres of what was originally a 10.5 acre rectangle extending north to College Ave.   I do not understand what you mean in the second part of your question, because I did not understand you to ever say that the final deed" extended that far north in 1911 after the final purchase. 

If you look at my map of the boundaries of Merion as defined in the July 26, 1911 deed, you'll see that the orange boundary extends all the way up to College.  It's not very wide up there, but clearly there was land deeded to Merion all 327 yards up to College.  Hope that clarifies it.



Could you explain further?

Do you think that the swap was like-for-like size?

I'm not certain.   I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was, or that additional acreage was needed, or that some was given back from what was drawn on the 1910 Land Plan, especially if that measures out at over 120 acres.


I've certainly not been shy in drawing out what I think happened...do you have any theories of your own now that you've looked at both the timelines and acreages in detail?

No, I don't have a theory yet for the swap.  The whole measuring exercise was to try to provide some factual context to determining where the swap was.  So far, the measurement hasn't helped clarify the swap areas.  But, I'm still thinking on it, as Jim apparently  is doing too. You have a theory, so, I thought it would be good to have it concisely stated again (outside this post, I hope, and without arguments in favour or against.  Let's just get it out and clear and debate from there.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1608 on: June 15, 2009, 12:54:03 PM »


Bryan,

Tough to tell if that's gravel or paved...

Or, even if it the road, since it's in the wrong place.   ;D


JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1609 on: June 15, 2009, 12:54:25 PM »
Mike,

the last thing I want to forget is that the triangle was on the 1910 Map...what I want you to focus on is WHY the triangle is on that map...the only reason a narrow traingle like that would be on the map is if someone told the mapmaker a road was going to be built in that neighborhood because the golf course was going to go up there for a green and a tee...the holes were not yet completely "designed up" so the width needed was uncertain, hence the need for Lloyd to have ownership for a while to widen and narrow small amounts like your 30 yards...

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1610 on: June 15, 2009, 01:01:43 PM »
Bryan,

Did you see the modern pic I posted from close to the same angle.

If not for the trees the area of the original 10th green would appear to be to the right of the road as well.

What road do you think this was?  It appeared on a dinner menu at the end of 1911 and no other such road appears on any maps of the time.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1611 on: June 15, 2009, 01:21:20 PM »
Bryan,

How about I refer to the proposed road through the real estate as the mirror road, or the symmetrical road?

Are you saying that the original land plan did not intend purposefully for those to roads to parallel symmetrically?

John_Cullum

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"We finally beat Medicare. "

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1613 on: June 15, 2009, 04:17:44 PM »
Bryan,

I believe the photo/painting was taken fairly near where the man in the dark blue shirt is standing, and if you took down all the tree growth and development that happened over the past almost 100 years, I think you'd see the road looking like this;




Just to understand that a little better, take a look at how the road runs on the original 1st hole, which teed off behind the clubhouse near today's 13th green, and was a dogleg left to an area near today's green at almost right angles to the 14th hole.



Finally, here's the 14th hole.




Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1614 on: June 15, 2009, 05:14:32 PM »
Bryan,

You asked me to describe again my theory of what I think happened.   I thought I had done that some pages ago when I first summarized the original historical property boundaries and drew out on those pre-purchase maps what I thought happend, and then again later I thought I had done it using the Merion internal documents that showed what was done by Barker, and what was done by Macdonald in mid-1910, as well as the correspondence to membership in November 1910  but I'll try to summarize.

First, I believe that the northeastern and southern sections of the Johnson Farm were the areas originally considered by both Barker as well as Macdonald and Whigham as part of the "nearly 120 acres" that would be required to be purchased that Robert Lesley referred to in July, 1910, and which the Site Committee recommended to the Board.   The fact that they measure out to 119 acres per your measurement of the area seems consistent with that.

I also believe that it would have been difficult not to realize that grabbing ahold of the Dallas Estate which ran contiguous to the southern portion of the Johnson Farm was a wise move for either real estate or golf course purposes, and you provided the definitive documents that showed that area coming under HDC control in October 1910, well after the July 1, 1910 solicitation to membership.  

I believe that pickup of the Dallas Estate then provided options for the golf course that hadn't been possible prior.   It also allowed Lloyd to work with Connell to negotiate a real estate/golf course boundary along the western edge of the northeastern part of the Johnson Farm that could be moved as necessary to create the golf course, but which also allowed them to keep real estate acreage maximized and the golf course kept to about 117 acres, which is what they eventually recommended securing.

Thus, the creation of the "approximate road", which replaced the historical boundary of the Johnson Farm along that edge, probably early November 1910.

No matter what the November 1910 Land Plan measures out to, we know it is inaccurate and we know that Merion intended to secure 117 acres, not the 122 or whatever the oversized and otherwise flawed 1910 Land Plan turned out to be.   While I think the shape of the "approximate road" is probably close to what was intended and even close to what was on the plan they worked with, we still know it's off, so it's subject to continued speculation and doesn't serve our purposes as well as we had hoped.  

We also know that it was supposed to be 117 acres from all of the documents and news accounts at the time the property was recommended to membership in November, and we know it from Hugh Wilson's first letter to Piper/Oakley later in February 1911 when he also mentions that they have 117 acres....not 120.   That is a very specific number and I'm certain it was consistent with whatever topo maps they had created which HAD to have included the land boundaries.

I also believe that the golf course was 117 acres prior to the Francis Swap and 120 acres afterwards.   I think they netted 3 additional acres but it's iimpossible to prove with anything other than the events and correspondences.   We would need to see the boundary of Hugh WIlson's topo map that measuured 117 acres total to see specifically where it happened along Golf House Road.

To your measurements...

It really doesn't matter much if that section of the Johnson Farm to the west across Ardmore Ave from the second hole was 23 or 21 acres.   The point is the difference to get to 117 acres can only be found to the west of GHR between Ardmore and College Aves because comparing the metes and bounds on those two deeds shows there is no other place on the property where metes and bounds changed once one takes out that land of the Johnson Farm across from #2.

If that far section was 21 then the acreage immediately to the west of GHR before the swap would be app 23 acres and app. 20 acres after the swap.   It really doesn't matter; the only point is the golf course had to total 117 acres before the swap and 120 after it.    That's how the golf course gained three acres in there to get to 120.1 acres on the July 1911 deed from the 117 MCC originally agreed to purchase.  I'd remind you once again that Hugh Wilson wrote about a 117 acres purchase on 2/1/11 and not a 120 acres purchase as we know happened on 7/19/11.
 
I also believe the additional three acres mentioned during the April 1911 Board Meeting is is not the railroad land since my understanding is that the metes and bounds on the Dec. 1910 deed and the July 1911 deed are the same along the creek.
 
I know it's frustrating to all of us that the 1910 Land Plan is not measurable to an accurate scale because if it were, we could certainly see definitively what's changed.   But we also KNOW that it's not accurate, clearly, so it's also sort of frustrating that we're  still trying to measure that proposed land plan that seems unreliable for measurement.  Everyone seems to agree to that so I'm not sure exactly what we are still thinking can be uncovered there.  

The point is that whoever was routing and designing the golf course frankly couldn't have been using that Nov 1910 proposed plan to route and design the course----they were using a topo map Hugh Wilson also referred to and sent to Piper & Oakley in February 1911 that most assurely DID have a measurable and accurate delineation on them for Golf House Road!    Otherwise there wouldn't have been anything at all that would have been limiting them in that area, would there?

Remember all it was out there was just open ground. They probably just measured and staked out on the ground the measurable delineation of GHR showing on their topo contour maps (that enclosed a total of 117 acres) and could see it was a problem fitting those last five holes in with that delineation on their topo contour maps.   That delineation of GHR on those topo maps is the only thing that could've been limiting them at that point.

The other issue is that if the Francis Swap had happened before Nov. 1910 there would've been no reason at all for the board to consider an exchange for land ALREADY PURCHASED for land ADJOINING AND the purchase of 3 acres additional as it already would've been considered and done before Lloyd even purchased the 161 acres and it obviously would've been reflected on those topo contour maps with their GHR delineation (which in that case would not have been limiting them on those last five holes).
 
It is also important to understand that in Nov. 1910 on the HDC real estate side 221 acres were slated for residential development while in reality only app 218 acres were ever actually developed of the original 338 acres mentioned by HDC and MCC.
 
I think some folks here are still hung up on the language Richard Francis used to describe the northern part of the property and still think that Merion had to to come along and swap for  that whole "Triangle", and then looki at the Land Plan of November 1910 and thinki since some land up there was already identified that everything must have happened before then, even if it doesn't measure out to what Francis said on that plan, or other factors such as the size of the plot and other timings make it a jigsaw puzzle piece that certainly doesn't fit the story or timelines in any way.

What some folks here don't seem to be understanding, and the reason is doesn't fit is because that is NOT what was swapped.  

If Francis had done all that before Nov. 1910 then they probably just would've shown the membership in Nov. 1910 a map with the fix already on it and the exact boundaries of what the July 21, 1911 survey and deed showed at that time!  Wouldn't they??
 
Hope this helps!!  ;D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 05:31:34 PM by MCirba »

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1615 on: June 15, 2009, 05:35:56 PM »
Thank you Mike, it does.

Is there any reason why Haverford College would not have a road from College Avenue to access their property from the west? It looks like the train tracks are the Eastern boundary. Is there anywhere to look at something like this?

Thanks

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1616 on: June 15, 2009, 05:39:50 PM »
Mike -- You are beating your head against the wall, but so I am I.

We're tied up with the word swap on this deal. I said three or four pages ago there was no swap (Bryan wants to call it  a "like for like" swap). Merion had an option for 117, but they bought 120 acres FOR THE SAME PRICE. They had a guy working for them (Francis) and a guy working for HDC (Lloyd) who HAD CONTROL OF THE BOUNDARIES. Nothing was set!!! That's why the road was "approximate". I'd bet $100 that if Merion needed 122 acres and it worked good for the HDC for houses they'd have given it to them. Both parties wanted the best for the golf course and the best for the development -- hence, the board encouraging members to buy into the HDC.

I'd imagine it going something like this:

HDC: Ok, we've got 161 acres. You can have some of it, but not all of it to build your damn golf course. Let's say we give you 117 acres and we'll put a road that connects College to Ardmore as the border. But, we'll figure out where it goes later so we can get the best possible plan of golf course and housing lots.

Merion: Sounds good.

HDC: Now, get working on it so we can make some money on these lots!

If Merion would have paid more for what they bought other than they agreed upon price for the 117 acres, then we have an issue. But, they didn't. They didn't pay a dime more for the money than they agreed upon.

Tony_Chapman

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1617 on: June 15, 2009, 05:40:43 PM »
Is there any reason why Haverford College would not have a road from College Avenue to access their property from the west? It looks like the train tracks are the Eastern boundary. Is there anywhere to look at something like this?

Thanks

Jim -- I know you didn't address this to me, but it was just a field. Why would they need more than one way to get access to it?

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1618 on: June 15, 2009, 05:58:15 PM »
Just one would be fine, where is it?

John_Cullum

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1619 on: June 15, 2009, 06:06:46 PM »
Given that concensus seems to be building that the tract expanded from the theoretical 117 acres to the actual 120  acres by moving the road to the west, does this shed any light on what McDonald and Whigham did or did not do? Does it tell us anything about what Wilson did or did not do?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1620 on: June 15, 2009, 06:14:12 PM »
John,

For me, I think we have to accept the words of those that were there with respect to both CBM and Wilson...moving the timeline may change peoples opinions on who "could have" done what, but my view is that the people involved knew full well what happened there and would not, and were not lying to prop up the local boy...or put down any one else.

The conversation of the SWAP is interesting to me because we have a guy that was right in the middle of it all having his written words thrown away because 100 years later we cannot find a way to fit it into our theory of the timeline.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1621 on: June 15, 2009, 06:19:04 PM »
John Cullum,

If it happened after Nov 1910 as we belive these timelines and land movements indicate, then it would have happened under Hugh Wilson's watch and ultimate responsibility.

That doesn't mean Big Mac didn't provide very valuable advice and suggestions...he clearly did..

 

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1622 on: June 15, 2009, 06:29:36 PM »
Jim,

I really don't believe anyone is throwing away what Francis said, except perhaps those who dismissed with the usual tortured semantics when Francis clearly said the Committee laid out and built the course and that he was "added" to Wilsons committee or that he described a number of architectural things he and the committee did in the design; even the things that didn't work well.

Not a word about a Macdonald role in the design, however...

I just think that when Francis describes the dimensions of the area around 15 + 16 he was not precise in his decription of the entire land mass being all swapped for land along Golf House Road now covered in fine homes.

It was probably a bit more complicated and he wanted to simplify it for anecdotal purposes for the brief article in question.   After all, look at all of us trying to describe it!  ;)

If you consider that the swap also involved an additional 3 acres coming to Merion, it had to be a bit more complex than we're seeing with the evidence at hand.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 01:18:18 PM by MCirba »

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1623 on: June 15, 2009, 06:51:57 PM »
Fair enough, I have a hard time when you and Tom Paul imply that he misspoke because it was 39 years after the fact...I'd like to think in the context he said it...basically self depricating except for one vital addition to the project...


As you know, I've been struggling with the idea that the "approximate road" was purely hypothetical or aesthetic, and with the suggestion that, if we take it too literally, it left too narrow an area for the golf they needed...essentially I just have a gut instinct that the SWAP, (whenever it occurred) included the entire triangle in use today...all 4.8 acres. So that's the point of this latest query about a road entrance into the Haverford College grounds there.

Wouldn't they have to have had a road coming in from College Ave. to access the land there?

If so, wouldn;t this become a very logical place to initially consider your Northern boundary for golf if you were HDC and Merion?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Now with Metes & Bounds
« Reply #1624 on: June 15, 2009, 07:57:54 PM »
Fair enough, I have a hard time when you and Tom Paul imply that he misspoke because it was 39 years after the fact...I'd like to think in the context he said it...basically self depricating except for one vital addition to the project...


As you know, I've been struggling with the idea that the "approximate road" was purely hypothetical or aesthetic, and with the suggestion that, if we take it too literally, it left too narrow an area for the golf they needed...essentially I just have a gut instinct that the SWAP, (whenever it occurred) included the entire triangle in use today...all 4.8 acres. So that's the point of this latest query about a road entrance into the Haverford College grounds there.

Wouldn't they have to have had a road coming in from College Ave. to access the land there?

If so, wouldn;t this become a very logical place to initially consider your Northern boundary for golf if you were HDC and Merion?

Jim,

On the 1908 Railroad Map, there is a road that runs from Haverford Avenue across the tracks, onto the Haverford College rectangle, down into and past the quarry, past the barn (today's clubhouse) and bottoming out at Ardmore Avenue.

By the 1913 Railroad Map, that road runs from Haverford Avenue across the tracks, onto the Haverford College rectange, and then stops.

Don't forget that there was another property...the McFadden property...between Haverford College and College Avenue on that northern border.   Whether the faculty and students had some type of informal access across that lot is unknown, but there was no formal roadway indicated cutting through it.  That property was shown as the McFadden's through the 1926 map, at least, with the same ingress/egress road going into Haverford College.

It appears sometime in the 1930s that road was stretched across the length of the rectangle (it's indicated in dotted lines) to meet other roads just north of the 16th tee.


p.s.   As we discussed a few weeks back, I also agree with you that it's very likely that Hugh Wilson and those guys would have been out there well before early 1911, even if only informally.   For one thing, it seems ludicrous to imagine that Wilson would have gone from ZERO involvement to Chairman of the Committee overnite.

It's just that we have no proof that it happened, and almost anti-proof, in that the writings of the Board really didn't mention any of the routing and design and construction activities that had been ongoing until the Wilson Committee report to the Board of April 1911 when the Board finalized and approved the selected plan, the Francis Swap and additional purchase of 3 acres, and construction commenced.   We also have Wilson saying that the committee didn't formally begin until early 1911 and we also know that a LOT of design work took place in the months preceeding April 1911 which IS documented in that report.   We also know that the NGLA visit and Macdonald's second and final day visit to Merion happened within that period.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 08:16:20 PM by MCirba »