[Mike_Cirba]

One other question that I think is fundamamental is this;

Why in December 1910 did H.G. Lloyd take title to 161 acres and not just the 117 acres needed for the golf course if it was already finalized?

As John Cullum mentioned, if the land had already been selected, surveyed, and was ready to be deeded, why wouldn't he just have assumed control of the part already routed and configured?

Why would he need to have control of the land on both sides of the approximate boundary between golf course and real estate if things were already settled, and especially if the final part of the routing...the Francis Land Swap...had already taken place??   

[Tony_Chapman]

Mike -- Would you be so kind as to go through your colors again? Thanks!

If I remember, the purple was the original option or 300+ acres. The blue is what they thought would work (100 +/- acres). The red is the Dallas Estate addition and the original property that Merion was built on. What is the black?

[John_Cullum]

If there was a land swap, then there was a deed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

As to why Lloyd took the land, it is my recollection from the Board letters that in November, MCC was asking for subscriptions of some sort, no?  If so, the simple answer might be that they didn't have the money put together yet.  

Another factor is that IF the routing, land swap, etc. wasn't finalized until 4-11 as the record partially shows, I believe the working arrangement was simply for Lloyd to buy the land, and transfer it when the work was done, as actually happened.  Lastly, Lloyd was probably just as anxious to get going on the subdivision as MCC was to get going on the golf course so he could get his money back!

John Cullen,

Once again, yes there was a deed, but apparently just one deed covered the whole enchilada, executed after all the land swaps takes place.  Those looking for detail wonder if the swap took place during the land acquistion phase in June-Nov 1910 or the final design phase, Jan-April 1911.  The deed dates to July 1911 and doesn't tell us much.

[Mike Hendren]

If there was a land swap, then there was a deed.

If not this has adverse possession or prescriptive easement written all over it.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

If there was a land swap, then there was a deed.

If not this has adverse possession or prescriptive easement written all over it.   Suddenly I'm very interested. 

Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

Tony,

Sure, let me try...it's probably not the most clear depiction because I copped one that David did and then drew atop it.

In the first illustration, the red line indicates the golf course as built.   My black line indicates the northeastern and southern boundaries of the original Johnson Farm, which preceeded the golf course, and which was the first OWNED holdings of HDC.   The total of those two sections is 117 acres.   My contention is that this is the 117 acres that they were originally considering in July 1910.




On the second illustration, the dark blue lines are where David Moriarty earlier approximated where he thought the original 100 acres came from, stopping them on the northeastern section of the Johnson Farm about 65 yards north of the quarry, at the boundary of Haverford College.   My light blue lines show the Dallas Estate (21 acres) and the Railroad Land (3 acres).  

I've also adjusted my northwestern boundary to indicate what I believe happened.

I think once the 21 acre Dallas Estate was purchased, the original Johnson Farm boundary between golf course and real estate (the only boundary that was movable) got renegotiated by Lloyd and Connell, and they drew that proposed boundary as a curving "approximate location of road" which I attempt to reproduce from the November Land Plan as the thinner black line on this drawing.

The difference between this thin black line and the "as built" red line from David's original drawing is what i believe approximates the dimensions of the Francis Land Swap.  

In essence, I'm contending that Merion "gave back" 21 acres west of that boundary to account for the addition of 21 acres of Dallas Estate.   In truth, the real number is that they "gave back" 18 acres, because in April 1911 they bought another 3 acres and it was somewhere along that boundary.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

The road went to College Ave because all the rich guys didn't want to get their whitewall tires muddy on a dirt road.....

Seriously, if you look at the plan, a road engineer would want to limit road intersections and the first draft of the road connects to planned or existing roads on the other side of College Ave.  And, those connections stayed, its just that the equilateral curve of Golf House Road became less car friendly (sharper turns) as it fit to the boundary of the final golf course.

[JESII]

One other question that I think is fundamamental is this;

Why in December 1910 did H.G. Lloyd take title to 161 acres and not just the 117 acres needed for the golf course if it was already finalized?

As John Cullum mentioned, if the land had already been selected, surveyed, and was ready to be deeded, why wouldn't he just have assumed control of the part already routed and configured?

Why would he need to have control of the land on both sides of the approximate boundary between golf course and real estate if things were already settled, and especially if the final part of the routing...the Francis Land Swap...had already taken place??   

Mike,

It's really quite simple if you'd take a step back from your staunch position and look at the whole thing openly for once...the road says approximate because they knew it was going to be in that neighborhood because they had decided the 15th green and 16th tee were going up there...what they hadn't done was what Tom Paul so often refers to as "designing up" those two holes...they didnn't know how much room they needed and Lloyd as the brodge gave them the latitude to move the boundary 20 or 30 yards here or there with no regard for legal documents...

An engineering/surveying/land planning firm will never put "Approximate Location of Road" on a formal plan that is otherwise meant to be TO SCALE if there was absolutely no consideration for putting the road right near there...moving from the "approximation" to the right 30 yards up above the 15th green/16th tee area and moving it left down at the bottom of the triangle by a similar amount fits in with "Approximate" but does not in any way warrant a man as accomplished as Francis to consider it his only real contribution...especially when his words say otherwise.

Do you find this timing inconceivable simply because there is no documented evidence of Richard Francis doing anything in 1910?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Whoops, cross post.

Mike C,

I wonder why DM's theory of giving back the 21 acres to the north (and just west of Haverford College) as drawn in your blue line doesn't get more love around here.  After all - that would be the most logical trade - a 21 acre rectangle for a 21 acre rectangle, wouldn't it?

Of course, that then puts the Francis Land Swap prior to Nov. 1910, because a generalized triangle shows up on that concept map.  All of which conflicts with other assumptions and facts like the 5 routings the next April and the formation of the committed the next January.

For David to be correct, MCC had to have split the design into two distinct areas of concern - with routing being placed in the land acquistion phase prior to Nov 1910.  Again, if that Nov 10 concept plan comes out to 120 acres, then we will know that both the swap and the triangle almost certainly had to occur before the plan was drawn, and that all that was left was tweaking the road to the final golf holes in April.  That would apparently make CBM's review of 5 routings pretty much simple tweaks to the basic routing.

Jim Sullivan describes all those possibiliies pretty well, too.

At some point, we can keep asking questions, but I think we need some kind of new info to come up with different answers.  What is the definition of insanity again?  The real question is not what we think happened, its what document would prove one of the two logical theories that surround this transaction.  And, where would we get it?

It would seem that Wayne or TePaul, who claim 1400 different documents, would be the key to this game, but they aren't playing!

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

At this point I'm not contending anything other than the order in which I think things happened and why.  Your post of last night suggesting that they were out there working in 1910 is surely interesting so I'm just trying to see if the other evidence support that in any way.

For instance, one thing I think we can possibly agree to throw out right away is this idea that HDC offered Merioi some "100 acres", as David tried to draw in dark blue on his original attempt at that map.

I think the July 1, 1910 documents we put out there yesterday showed that this was a misunderstanding, and that from the very beginning of negotiations everyone was talking about more than 100 acres, and that first letter referred to them "probably require(ing) almost 120 acres".

So, that blue line is really not historically accurate in any way.

Instead, I think it makes more sense that the 120 acres they were talking about in July was made up of the two sections of Johnson Farmland (117 acres) and the Railroad Land recommended at that same time by Macdonald and Whigham (3 acres).

[Mike_Cirba]

Whoops, cross post.

Mike C,

I wonder why DM's theory of giving back the 21 acres to the north (and just west of Haverford College) as drawn in your blue line doesn't get more love around here.  After all - that would be the most logical trade - a 21 acre rectangle for a 21 acre rectangle, wouldn't it?

Jim,

Which 21 acres to the north would they give up for the Dallas Estate?   I'm not sure i've heard that theory?

I think they gave up 21 acres to the west, which later became 18 acres to the west after the Francis Land Swap.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony,

Sure, let me try...it's probably not the most clear depiction because I copped one that David did and then drew atop it.

I've also adjusted my northwestern boundary to indicate what I believe happened.

I think once the 21 acre Dallas Estate was purchased, the original Johnson Farm boundary between golf course and real estate (the only boundary that was movable) got renegotiated by Lloyd and Connell, and they drew that proposed boundary as a curving "approximate location of road" which I attempt to reproduce from the November Land Plan as the thinner black line on this drawing.

The difference between this thin black line and the "as built" red line from David's original drawing is what i believe approximates the dimensions of the Francis Land Swap.  

In essence, I'm contending that Merion "gave back" 21 acres west of that boundary to account for the addition of 21 acres of Dallas Estate.   In truth, the real number is that they "gave back" 18 acres, because in April 1911 they bought another 3 acres and it was somewhere along that boundary.

I don't understand why Merion wanted any land to the north of the current 15th green and 16th tee. God, I must be missing something or the timing of something that is staring at me right in the face.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

See my ammended post above.  Its just as logical, absent documentation, that if the Dallas Estate was under consideration in June 1910 (as TePaul said once) that it was Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate, minus a parcel from the Johnson Farm to keep at 120 Acres.

Was that the land by Haverford, or a general narroring of the north leg of the L using Golf House Road?

The rectangle of the Johnson Farm coming straight west from the Haverford College South Boundary to the original Johnson Farm property line, up to College Road, and then back over to Haverford College Boundary is about 21 acres, or the same size as the Dallas Estate.  You have that marked as DM's 100 acre property in a blue line.  I am suggesting that they kept that and added the Dallas Estate to make up the 120 acres.

That is the basis of DM's theory on the land swap - that the north border of the working topos was at Haverford College and the "extra" 3 acres was the triangle that shows up on the Nov 1910 map.  I can follow his logic tree completely, even if I am not 100% sure its correct because of other facts.  That seems kind of odd, doesn't it?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tony,

I don't think they did either, yet the November 1910 Land Plan of what some are contending is meant to show clearly the boundaries between real estate and golf course does in fact show golf that far north.

In truth, I think that's a reflection of 1) The original boundaries of the property under consideration, the Johnson Farm, whose northern boundary runs all the way to College Avenue (as seen in the first illustration), and 2) The creation of an "approximate road" to represent the new, working boundary between real estate and golf course and running north through that Johnson Farm property AFTER the Dallas Estate was brought under control.

In effect, 21 acres they gained with the Dallas Estate was "put back" for real estate along the original boundary of the northern part of the Johnson Farm.    Not to confuse thngs, but it later became 18 acres, after Merion purchased 3 of them back in the Francis Land Swap.

[JESII]

Mike,

The road on the November 1910 plan is approximate, but not totally random...they knew they needed a green and a tee up there they just didn't quite know how...

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

See my ammended post above.  Its just as logical, absent documentation, that if the Dallas Estate was under consideration in June 1910 (as TePaul said once) that it was Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate, minus a parcel from the Johnson Farm to keep at 120 Acres.

Jeff...Tom Paul has looked for documentation in the minutes that would have caused him to make that statement and is going to keep looking.   Right now, he doesn't recall what he was referring to originally.

Also, I find it a bit difficult to believe that the Merion Site Committee would have strongly recommnended to their Board of Governors on July 1, 1910 to move swiftly to purchase of land (Dallas Estate) that the seller didn't even have under option yet.

Was that the land by Haverford, or a general narroring of the north leg of the L using Golf House Road?

That "triangle" is fictitious, and misleading.   The Johnson farm land was a fairly wide rectangle up into that area all the way to College Avenue.   The only reason it appears triangular is the "approximate road" boundary drawn over it.

The rectangle of the Johnson Farm coming straight west from the Haverford College South Boundary to the original Johnson Farm property line, up to College Road, and then back over to Haverford College Boundary is about 21 acres, or the same size as the Dallas Estate.  You have that marked as DM's 100 acre property in a blue line.  I am suggesting that they kept that and added the Dallas Estate to make up the 120 acres.

That is the basis of DM's theory on the land swap - that the north border of the working topos was at Haverford College and the "extra" 3 acres was the triangle that shows up on the Nov 1910 map.  I can follow his logic tree completely, even if I am not 100% sure its correct because of other facts.  That seems kind of odd, doesn't it?

Jeff,

It should be easy enough to check the dimensions and acreage of that original northern boundary, as well as today's existing triangle.

It looks shy of 21 to me on the face of it, but I think it's worth exploring.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

The seller didn't have it under option yet? Are you referring to Freeman?  Mr. Dallas passed in 1907 and his estate was trying or willing to dispose of the lot, at least according to some.  In June of 1910 or even 1909, its possible that MCC "knew it was for sale" or most likely so.

The "Johnson/Haverford College Rectangle" does appear to be a bit short of 21 acres on the RR map.  I thought TePaul said it was 21, but also mentioned 23 acres.  At one time, someone posted the dimensions from HC to the JF property line along Colege Road.  We know the dimension along the HC boundary is (?) 400'.  It should be easy to figure out.

As always, I could be wrong.

[Mike_Cirba]

A bit more on the Dallas Estate and James Freeman...

On August 14, 1910, the Philadelphia Inquirer reported;

"A tract of 21 acres on the Cooprstown Road south of Haverford, belonging to the estate of David Dallas, was sold for the estate by Hirst and McMullin to James Freeman of this city, for consideration not made public. (note...when the deal was finalized in Nov the amount was reported as 25K)

The property adjoins that of John Marshall Guest and of the Haverford Development Company.

The djoining track of 140 acres (note - the Johnson Farm) was sold to the Haverford Development Company some years ago for 1500 dollars an acre, but values have increased greatly since that sale and property in the neighborhood is held now at between 2000 and 2500 an acre.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

On the 1900 RR map I'm getting about 420ft by 980ft for that northern rectangle.

What are you seeing?

[JESII]

Doesn't sound to me like HDC was concerned with maximizing their profits based on those numbers...selling 1/3 of your asset at 30 percent of its value while only recognizing par to slightly above par on the remaining 2/3 doesn't sound like purely business speculation to me...unless they needed to get out of the land...

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

If the value inflated that quickly on just the rumors of what was happening, one has to think they skyrocketed once the course was underway.

The golf course land was the loss leader and sales the next decade brought some seriously big dollars. 

I know, cuz Joe B dug up the HDC sales from the next few years.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I'm seeing that top rectangle of the Johnson Farm at 9.5 acres, which would hardly be an even swap for the 21 acres of Dallas Estate.

Given that we now know there was never a "100 acre offer", it might be time to ask David which 120 acres of and that Merion was "requiring" for their course in July 1910, that presumably included the Dallas Estate and the railroad property and possibly the Francis "triangle" as well as what evidence he's using to draw those boundary lines.

***EDIT***

The reason I ask is because we know the northeastern and southern sections of the Johnson Farm total 117 acres.

We know that the Dallas Estate equals 21 acres

We know that the Railroad Land equals 3 acres

That totals 141 acres.

If David's "Blue Line" represents what he thinks was the originally offered property as of July, 1910, then the loss of 9.5 acres in the rectangle above that blue line still adds up to an estimated proposed golf course of 131.5 acres, considerably more than what they needed for golf course.


That would lead to the conclusion that;

1) Perhaps the 21 acre Dallas Estate was not considered in July?

2) Perhaps ALL of the Johnson Farm northeastern sections and southern sections (117 acres) and the railroad land (3 acres) were what was being proposed in July??

Otherwise, where would the line be drawn on the Johnson Farm and what is the evidence to support that assertion?

[Bryan Izatt]

I will be posting some of the mapping from the metes and bounds later tonight.  In the meantime, I'm trying to catch up on the thread.  So, from back on page 40, the following from Tom:

That's good Bryan. Do your best and if it's not too damn expensive we will take everything we have with metes and bounds and get a professional survey company to measure everythng; perhaps even the same one that did it back then. Then we can compare our results with your results.

It will be pretty interesting to see how you make out on the metes and bounds of the yet to be built Golf House Road on that July 21, 1911 deed that is a series of arcs to points using Chordes and such! I hope your GOOGLE EARTH plainimeter or what ever it is has a good protractor or arc measuring tool too.    The metes and bounds of July 19, 1911 Indenture clearly say: "to the intersection of the centreline of Ardmore Avenue and the centreline of a new road between this and land of the Haverford Development Company, thence along the centreline of said new road the following several courses and distances. North twenty three ........."    I believe this indicates that Golf House Road was built prior to July 19, 1911, for the survey of this property must have been done before that date.

Either through a professional survey company or just comparing the arcs and lengths and numerical directional degrees I will confirm that the metes and bounds up and down from Ardmore to College Aves of Golf House Road on that July 21, 1911 deed are the very same metes and bounds as Golf House Road was actually built to (we can compare all that off the metes and bounds of the road on a 1928 Yerkes survey for Merion's property).

I might also warn you that if that road as built does go west of the old Johnson boundary line at the top of the "L" into the old Taylor estate at a few small points it may throw your numbers off some but I doubt it will with a professional surveyor because if Golf House Road and the old Johnson boundary when enclosed come out a bit low on a 120.1 acre     Just being anal, but the deed lists the acreage at 120.01 acres.  total then I know a professional surveyor could easily find precisely where it may have gone over that boundary by just comparing the metes and bounds of the old Johnson boundary with the metes and bounds of as built Golf House Road and coming up with the remainder from over the old Johnson boundary.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Thanks for your awesome work to date...it is MOST APPRECIATED!!!   

The news that perhaps Golf House Road was already built by the time that survey was done is indeed interesting to hear!

Can't wait to hear what you come up with later tonight.


btw...quick question...Am I correct in measuring the northern rectangle of the Johnson Farm land as roughly 9.5 acres??

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