[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Well that simple picture is worth 1000 words, or in this case, perhaps 1000 TePaul posts.......

One last question then. It would stand to reason that the road in that Nov 1910 post WOULD in fact show that green parcel to be 21 acres and the final reconfiguration of Golf House Road would show it to be 18 acres, no?

Knowing that it was a concept plan, isn't it still quite possible that it was to scale and wouldn't the MCC portion as depicted show as 117 acres and not 120?  Did Bryan or anyone try to get the MCC acreage off that concept plan?  Or, do you figure it just wasn't drawn with any accuracy at all? 

That is possible, although if drwawn up as part of a presenttion of a plan to vote on buying property, it would seemingly match the acres to be bought, even with the proviso that land swaps were going to occur.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Well that simple picture is worth 1000 words, or in this case, perhaps 1000 TePaul posts.......

One last question then. It would stand to reason that the road in that Nov 1910 post WOULD in fact show that green parcel to be 21 acres and the final reconfiguration of Golf House Road would show it to be 18 acres, no?

Jeff,

Yes, exactly!

Speaking of pictures, Bryan's map shows the area in question much better and designated as "JW".

Knowing that it was a concept plan, isn't it still quite possible that it was to scale and wouldn't the MCC portion as depicted show as 117 acres and not 120?

I'm not sure I understand that question.   Measurements we took of that Land Plan seemed off in a number of areas.   Are you suggesting we possibly based those measurements on faulty assumptions of what final values were appropriate?

[TEPaul]

"Thanks, Tom...did I explain it correctly??"


Mike:

I think so. I know it's not easy and when this first occured to me about three weeks ago for a week or so I sort of lost it myself and would think---how does this work again?

I think the factors that have to be kept in mind are at least these which few have ever probably realized;

1. The metes and bounds boundaries between those two deeds are identical from the beginning point on the deeds at College and Golf House Road all the way to a midpoint on Ardmore Ave and the corner of the Eaton place (that might be something like 5,000 yards). From there the July 21, 1911 deed is different than the Dec. 19, 1910 deed because we are seeing that western 23 acre section of the Johnson farm come out of what will be the golf course property. From that point (middle of Ardmore Ave and the corner of the Eaton place) the linear run down Ardmore Ave (boundary of the golf course) is actual around a 100+ yards shorter than that linear run on the old Johnson farm along Ardmore Ave (this is assuming that the east and west boundaries on that old 23 acre section are relatively parallel). What that has to mean is that Golf House Road as it was built actually goes west of the old Johnson farm boundary at the top of the "L" and into either a portion of the old Taylor estate and including that narrow section of the old Johnson farm that connected that far western section with the top of the "L" section.

2. We pretty much know that far western 23 acres was never considered in a routing and so that essentially isolates the only portion of Merion East where this kind of swap and additional purchase could have happened-----at some point or various points up and down Golf House Road that runs from Ardmore Ave up to College Ave to the beginning points on the deeds and which enclose the total acreage (120.1) on the deed transfered from Lloyd to MCCGA on July 21, 1911.

3. This is how we find they both exchanged land up and down Golf House Road by redelineating the entire road to suit those last five holes (particularly the left sides of #1, #14, #15 and to make room in a sequence for obviously what #16 is) AND purchased 3 additional acres to accomplish the same purpose or fix! Francis did talk about #15 green and #16 tee but he also described the problem as being a difficulty for the last five holes (the latter basically means desired hole lengths and par sequencing).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Here is my concern. I think the 11-10-10 plan might very well have been an exhibit for the land purchase and should have totaled 117 acres to MCC from HDC.  But, since we are looking at photos of the plan, and they are taken at angles, its quite possible no one has been able to measure that plan accurately.

Looking at Bryan's photo marked above, area JW clearly exceeds area F.  No way MCC would have had to buy 3 more acres, since it looks like they gave up 3 or more.  If the 11-11-10 Concept Plan road was put on that photo,  I believe it would have shave areas M and F down, and maybe increase area JW south  by 14-15, to where JW (south) was 3 Acres less than M (north of Ardmore) and F.  Then, your timeline makes a lot of sense and it would seem clear that Francis was not accurately describing the whole triangle.

Not to throw any more theories out there, but if secrecy was the key to buying the Dallas Estate, then I think Barkers routing might have actually showed using it, even though not acquired, and that is why they threw it away!  And perhaps why they called in CBM so quickly, to see if perhaps he had a better solution, or also felt the Dallas Estate was a requirement.  (It was, because that little area along Ardmore is only one hole wide at most, and was unusable)

[Mike_Cirba]

Knowing that it was a concept plan, isn't it still quite possible that it was to scale and wouldn't the MCC portion as depicted show as 117 acres and not 120?  Did Bryan or anyone try to get the MCC acreage off that concept plan?  Or, do you figure it just wasn't drawn with any accuracy at all? 

That is possible, although if drwawn up as part of a presenttion of a plan to vote on buying property, it would seemingly match the acres to be bought, even with the proviso that land swaps were going to occur.

Jeff,

Ok..I see what you're asking here.

Actually, the 1910 Land Plan ABSOLUTELY MEANT TO DEPICT 117 acres, NOT 120 and the November letter that went to the membership makes this clear.

This is also why your "alternative theory" of why David's essay might still be correct is incorrect.

It's ALSO WHY THE FRANCIS LAND SWAP HAS TO HAVE HAPPENED AFTER NOVEMBER 15, 1910 when they were first going to buy 117 Acres for golf! 

They eventually purchased 120.1 acres in July 1911, NOT 117 as was shown on that November 1910 Land Plan!   That did NOT include the Railroad land, which didn't get purchased until 1961 or something like that.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I think I agree.  Do you know the plan was supposed to depict 117 acres?  I think it might and the letter to the board says 120 because it knows it will eventually buy 3 acres of RR land as well?  Its funny how many of these acreage parcels came out to be the same - a 3 acre triangle and a 3 acre RR parcel, for instance. No wonder its confusing to some of us!

I agree that all of this points to the land swap happening later, although I can see DM's logic tree.  It just depends on, I think, the wrong little bits of evidence that came out back then.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

Here is the letter that went out with the November 15, 1910 Land Plan.




The 3 acres along the railroad were never purchased until 1961 or 1971.   There was a separate agreement with the Railroad that they could use this land...I'll dig it up.   

The 3 ADDITIONAL acres that were purchased on April 19th, 1911 (to create the final total of 120.1 acres that was finally turned over to MCC in July 1911) were THE FRANCIS LAND SWAP and resulted from the need for a bit more acreage along Golf House Road and had nothing to do with the railroad land.

Case solved!


***EDIT*** - 

9-20-1961
Merion Golf Club purchased 2.862 acres (where original 12th green and 13th hole were located) at a cost of $11,000 from Philadelphia & Western Railroad from whom it was leased between 5-5-1911 until 9-20-1961 ($1.oo annual payment and all real estate taxes)

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Regarding your post #1399, that is precisely why it is a great idea for anyone trying to figure out what happened in this thing to completely wash their minds of anything and everything Moriarty mentioned in that essay. There is so much total misinformation in that essay he tries to pass off as fact and truth it is just frightening. If people really read it after a while it becomes hard to separate fact from fancy. There is so little fact in that essay it's best to just wash your mind of everything it say entirely and then take a fresh look at all the real factual details of this thing.

That is precisely why I just hate historic revisionism of any kind.

There is also another oddity to this entire Merion thing and that is there really are a number of coincidentally similar numbers that float through this that do not have a connection to one another some assume they do. I'm of course speaking of the numbers, 3, 21 and even 120.

By the way, I think you don't need to use the number 118. Use 117 because it matches out with the incremental of 23. You got 118 because you subtracted Bryan's measurement of 22 acres of that western Johnson farm measurement. I never tried to measure it but with the rest of the givens I think it has to be 23 acres which subtracted from 140 gives us 117----the amount of acres MCC originally agreed to buy and the amount of acreage obviously enclosed in the area on those working topo survey maps they were originally routing and designing on before Francis' idea which increased it to 120.1.

[TEPaul]

"Some people will probably think you fed me the answers, and some will certainly argue that."


Michael:

I figure I fed everybody the answers in posts #652, 656 and 670. That was about two weeks ago right? I know this stuff isn't easy to understand but that's why I keep saying, with a situation like this one with Merion which sure was pretty unusual all the way around you just have to know the details-----ALL OF THEM or you can't come to that kind of exercise in those posts. I never measured anything; I never tried to, I just kept backing some numbers in and out given other unique ramifications and facts. At first I wondered if it was nothing other than just a couple of coincidentally similar incremental number and then I realized it really is the answer. It's no different than taking a number of facts (givens) and just solving for what the X factor is or has to be----in this case to get back to a couple of given and known and factual totals.

After this Moriarty may not agree to converse with any of us. What do you think? 

As for Patrick, he of course won't refuse to converse with us he will just not post and fade into the woodwork as he generally does so I won't have to point out on a response post to one of his that I know he's the putz I've always suspected him of being! The hardest thing I've ever had to do on this website in the last ten years is to try to educate that man on golf course architecture. 

[Mike_Cirba]

"Some people will probably think you fed me the answers, and some will certainly argue that."


Michael:

I figure I fed everybody the answers in posts #652, 656 and 670. That was about two weeks ago right? I know this stuff isn't easy to understand but that's why I keep saying, with a situation like this one with Merion which sure was pretty unusual all the way around you just have to know the details-----ALL OF THEM or you can't come to that kind of exercise in those posts. I never measured anything; I never tried to, I just kept backing some numbers in and out given other unique ramifications and facts. At first I wondered if it was nothing other than just a couple of coincidentally similar incremental number and then I realized it really is the answer. It's no different than taking a number of facts (givens) and just solving for what the X factor is or has to be----in this case to get back to a couple of given and known and factual totals.

Tom,

I'm really, really pleased we came to the same answer two completely different ways.   It just took me a few weeks!   

As I explained above, I started down this trail once you mentioned yesterday that the June 29, 1910 Macdonald letter was sent as part of the same Site Committee report of July 1, 1910, and which mentioned "probably requiring almost 120 acres".

I never realized prior that this report was sent that early and it got me wondering what 120 acres they could possibly be referring to! 

In any case, I think Jeff Brauer also now has apparently come to the same conclusion and worked it through a slightly different way, as well.

I'm going to go play some golf!!!!! 

Thank God Ran didn't delete this thread!!!!!!   

Somewhere, Hugh Wilson is smiling.

[TEPaul]

"I'm going to go play some golf!!!!!      "


Good. Go enjoy yourself. I'm going down to the shore and then I'm going to Hawaii. On the way to the shore I'm going to practice my Elvis impersonation routine so I'll be completely ready to take Blue Hawaii by storm.

When I get back on the 14th or 15th I want Moriarty hog-tied, muzzled and branded and delivered to the first stall on the right in the barn. You can manage that for me, can't you Michael Frobusher Cirba?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Enjoy Hawaii!

I'll be happy just to get back to work on Cobb's Creek, that other Hugh Wilson design. 

[TEPaul]

"I'll be happy just to get back to work on Cobb's Creek, that other Hugh Wilson design."


I heard from a reliable source H.J. Whigam routed and designed that one in only 117 minutes.

[JESII]

Mike,

Do you have the rest of that letter to the membership from 1910?

Also, if the Merion Committee realizes the Johnson Farm alone has severe limitations for golf...

At some point, someone decides that the Dallas Estate would make a logical extension.  Almost certainly someone is starting to realize the limitations of the existing property for golf and that gaining more east/west real estate south of Ardmore Avenue is going to be necessary.   HDC completes the purchase for it in early November, 1910.

...why would HDC make that purchase?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Here is the letter that went out with the November 15, 1910 Land Plan.

Mike,

This letter states that a committee found the land and reported such to the Board in July, 1910 and that the club went ahead and purchased the land PRIOR to November 15, 1910




The 3 ADDITIONAL acres that were purchased on April 19th, 1911 (to create the final total of 120.1 acres that was finally turned over to MCC in July 1911) were THE FRANCIS LAND SWAP and resulted from the need for a bit more acreage along Golf House Road and had nothing to do with the railroad land.

Case solved!

Not quite.

If Wilson doesn't become involved until 1911, it appears that the club discovered the land in July, 1910 and acquired it PRIOR to
November 15, 1910.

Weren't the three additional acres the ones CBM recommended purchasing ?

Why is this letter being produced at this late date, and where is the balance of the letter ?

Mike, you made the following statement.

I thought adding this article from Tillinghast in the 1934 US Open article might be appropriate for this thread;

Why are you so willing to accept what AWT said in 1934, but unwilling to accept what Whigham said in 1939 ?
Especially since Whigham was intimately involved and Tillinghast wasn't.

I guess you only present and champion articles/statements that support your position.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Hopefully, someone will put everything documented in chronlogical order.
That would help in determining what happened."

Patrick:

MY GOD, it's so amazing that you would say something that dumb at this point. That's all we've been doing is putting actual recorded facts in documented CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER. That is what this TIMELINE thread is all about.

I've never seen a post that chronolgocially outlines the facts, have you.

I'm asking that one post list the indisputable FACTS, chronologically.

To date, that HASN'T been done.

You are just so notoriously light on research and understanding the details of it you're just a waste of time on here. That remark of yours is incredible, and it shows you obviously don't read these posts because you sure don't understand what they've said and what's going on here!


What the remark shows is your lack of reading comprehension skills

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

I have the rest of the letter but am en route to play golf...I'll post it later.

Also, if you look at the 117 acres available on the original Johson Farm land less the Dallas Estate it seems to me due to the dimensions and narrowness that you wouldn't be able to get many holes in there without the addition of the Dallas Estate.

That is an observation, but one supported by the timing of events.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Would you please post the balance of the November 15, 1910 letter.

Thanks

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick.

Sure thing...as soon as I get home from finally playing some golf this evening.

Thanks.

[JESII]

Jim,

I have the rest of the letter but am en route to play golf...I'll post it later.

Also, if you look at the 117 acres available on the original Johson Farm land less the Dallas Estate it seems to me due to the dimensions and narrowness that you wouldn't be able to get many holes in there without the addition of the Dallas Estate.

That is an observation, but one supported by the timing of events.

Thanks Mike, I look forward to it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sure thing...as soon as I get home from finally playing some golf this evening.
 

Thanks

Mike, you also stated the following:

If nothing else, I believe the entire disagreement has been distilled down to this, as it seems that even Patrick Mucci agrees that the only remaining point of contention that would lead one to reasonably believe that anyone but Hugh Wilson routed and designed Merion is simply the tiiming and location of the Francis Land Swap.

That is incorrect.

The "timing" of the land swap could ONLY prove that Wilson DIDN'T route Merion.

The "timing" cannot prove that he did.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know you do; you've said that a number of times. Apparently some others think it is preposterous too. No problem there at all, except all the factual records from MCC point to the fact they just felt they had enough land to build a good 18 hole golf course on (don't forget Macdonald told them so in June 1910 on what appears to have been somewhat less ground) and that they began routing and designing on it beginning in early 1911 and they continued that process with numerous different courses and then five different plans throughout the next three months of the beginning of 1911.

So it really doesn't matter how preposterous you think it is that they did it that way because the MCC records clearly show that is the way they did it.


How, specifically, do the MCC records clearly show that that is the way they did it ?

 
And then one needs to add to that there just isn't anything at all that points to anything finalized with a course or courses before that.

I don't think any of us are saying they had zero idea in 1910 what they would do out there on 117 acres for a golf course when the began routing and designing in the beginning of 1911 only that they did not begin the designing process until the beginning of 1911. That's what the record clearly SHOWS and I for one see no reason to dismiss it and not believe it.

TEPaul,

Doesn't it seem counter intuitive that if they had the land picked out as of July 1910 and purchased it prior to November 15, 1910 that they wouldn't have have begun the routing process until early 1911 instead of sometime between July 1910 and November 15, 1910 ?

I mean, seriously, any joker can take some golf club's historical record and just try to throw it all out as mistaken and wrong when it has never been questioned at any time in a century by anyone and then try to supplant it with a bunch of hypotheticals and conjecture and speculation by trying to torture the hell out of parts of some remarks that some involved back then made years later but what is the point of that really?

What's the value of it unless people on here just want to debate endless on a bunch of "WHAT IFS?"

The answer to your question/statement lies within the context of the "discovery process."[

We KNOW that the club's historical record was WRONG when it came to Wilson's trip abroad.
Are you suggesting that we accept that error as a factual facet of the club's historical record ?

If that element of the club's historical record is in error, is it possible that other elements of the club's historical record are in error ?

When only one party has access to the "records" and that party tells us what the the "records" say, based on their interpretation of the documentation they've reviewed, should the other party/ies accept that interpretation as The Gospel ?

Academic review and transparency are an integral part of the process in determining the veracity of the "historical record", not sequestering the information/documentation.

[JESII]

Do we know how much HDC bought the Dallas estate for?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

Doesn't it seem counter intuitive that if they had the land picked out as of July 1910 and purchased it prior to November 15, 1910 that they wouldn't have have begun the routing process until early 1911 instead of sometime between July 1910 and November 15, 1910?"


Come on Patrick; If you're going to take part in this discussion get your facts and details straight. MCC didn't actually purchase anything until July 21. 1911!!! They had an agreement to buy 117 acres in Nov. 1910, Lloyd bought 161 acres in Dec. 19, 1910 with the ability to move boundary lines for the golf course. After the course was routed and designed with a boundary adjustment by Francis' idea the final plan was approved by the board in April 1911, they went into construction and Lloyd transfered the land to MCCGA on July 21, 1911.



"We KNOW that the club's historical record was WRONG when it came to Wilson's trip abroad."


Once again, Patrick. THAT story did not even happen until 50-60 years AFTER 1910 and 1911. It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to what actually happened in 1910 and 1911.



"If Wilson doesn't become involved until 1911,"


Where did you get that FACT, Patrick; From Moriarty's essay?!? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Come on Patrick; If you're going to take part in this discussion get your facts and details straight.
MCC didn't actually purchase anything until July 21. 1911!!!
They had an agreement to buy 117 acres in Nov. 1910,

TEPaul,

The letter below, which Mike Cirba posted, says just the opposite.
It states that they HAD secured the land PRIOR to November 15, 1910, and that they had chosen that land as early as July, 1910.



Lloyd bought 161 acres in Dec. 19, 1910 with the ability to move boundary lines for the golf course.

The letter states that the club had ALREADY secured the land prior to November 15, 1910

After the course was routed and designed with a boundary adjustment by Francis' idea the final plan was approved by the board in April 1911, they went into construction and Lloyd transfered the land to MCCGA on July 21, 1911.

Are you telling me that the above letter is a fraud or grossly inaccurate ?

"We KNOW that the club's historical record was WRONG when it came to Wilson's trip abroad."

Once again, Patrick. THAT story did not even happen until 50-60 years AFTER 1910 and 1911. It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to what actually happened in 1910 and 1911.

That's nonsense, and, it doesn't matter WHEN it happened, it happened, it became part of Merion's Historical Record.
Thus, the historical record was wrong.

"If Wilson doesn't become involved until 1911,"

Where did you get that FACT, Patrick; From Moriarty's essay?!? 

I think I got that FACT from Mike Cirba who stated that Wilson didn't join the committee until early 1911.
Is that correct or incorrect ?
If it's incorrect, what's the official date he joined the committee ?.

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