[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,


Couldn't that whole post of new or forgotten information have been condensed to:



"Michael Cirba:

Here is another very interesting item.  Isn't it interesting that when Hugh I. Wilson first wrote Russell Oakley on Feb. 1, 1911 he mentioned in his letter that MCC had purchased 117 acres and NOT 120 acres?  "

That is a new (or forgotten) clue of substance on the timing.  I have not quite figured out what your whole boundary excersize is trying to prove.  Like Jim Sullivan, I would like you (using Bryan if technically necessary) just post a picture of what exact land you think was transferred.  I am still struggling with the idea of an even swap plus three acres and a delineation of land that fits all the known criteria.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Are you saying the Francis Swap included the 3 acre purchase?"


Sully:

Yes I am. I'm saying it because it was the ONLY border adjustment recorded by MCC or ever mentioned at all in that timeframe. If there were others outside that particular dimension (of where they could swap for land actually "adjoining" HDC land) or even inside that dimension nothing was ever mentioned about it at any time and that would be virtually impossible.



"Can you identify the land exchanged as well as the land purchsed through this deal and the Thompson Resolution?"


Only that it had to happen along the extension of what became Golf House Road from Ardmore Ave on the south to College on the North. I've said that for well over a year. The only way to tell precisely where it happened along the delineation of that road we would need the delineation of that yet to be built road on Wilson and Committee's working topo survey maps (blueprints). That was the only proposed boundary that could have been limiting them with fitting those last five holes in and that is what Lloyd agreed to change when Francis came to him with his idea. And the fix is measurable on the metes and bounds of Golf House Road on the July 21, 1911 deed from Lloyd to MCCGA (that he was the chairman of, by the way).

[JESII]

Tom,

What exactly was the border adjustment?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I think Sully is asking about the 3 acres of railroad land where the old 12th green/13th hole were.

You aren't saying those 3 acres were involved in the swap, were you?

[JESII]

I'm asking if Tom is saying the Thompson Resolution was the "official" presentation of the Francis Land Swap...and it included a purchase of 3 acres. I don't care where the 3 acres were, but Tom has the Francis Swap and a 3 acre purchase tied together and now I am confused so I am trying to figure that out.

[TEPaul]

"This whole thing is a joke.

TEPaul tells us the acreage of the rectangle, so Bryan spends his time extrapolating, coming up with an accurate depection that is obviously wrong, and of course the information TEPaul gave us was wrong, based on a number he couldn't even read.   Did he mention that when he told us the acreage?  Of course not."




Measuring off of material (That Nov. 15, 1910 PROPOSED land plan and PRR Plat maps) that is unreliable for exact measurement purposes via Google Earth was never my idea and I've never agreed with it. I still doin't. To me that is what the real joke is. And then to constantly brow beat me for information you've never had is the additional joke. The final joke is to blame me for the mistakes with any of this ridiculous measuring in this way and for the fact that it is not accurate because of information I've supplied.   

WE are going to get this measured exactly by a professional surveyor (perhaps even the same survey company that did it a century ago).


THAT will produce exact measurements but the final joke is even with THAT this essayist will probably start sceaming on here that EVEN THAT is HYPERBOLE or some MISTAKE somehow! He may even claim that the surveyors are also Philadelphians and even THEY are in on some plot to Glorify Wilson and minimize C.B. Macdonald!   

Honestly, this entire Merion/Macdonald campaign of this person is the biggest joke this website has ever experienced in its entire ten year history.   

[TEPaul]

"I'm asking if Tom is saying the Thompson Resolution was the "official" presentation of the Francis Land Swap...and it included a purchase of 3 acres."



Sully:

Yes I am saying that. Definitely. That was what officially solved the problem that Francis referred to as not being able to fit the final five holes in. That was what was reflected in the deed Lloyd transfered to MCCGA Corp on July 21, 1911 with an increase in acreage for the course from 117 to 120.

("The land was shaped like a capital "L" and it was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright part---with a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Avenue---but the last five holes were another question.")


Of course I can understand how some on here are wondering why there needed to be both an "Exchange" for land already purchased for land adjoining AND a purchase of three additional acres for $7,500.

I think the reason for that is whatever the problems were they were having fitting in those last five holes against the western boundary for the course (on their topo survey maps) they took some land to the west of that proposed road delineation on their survey maps (obviously the road was not yet built) and gave a like amount back to the development where they didn't need it.

The "EXCHANGE" part of the Thompson Resolution (exchange of land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining) was land from the old Johnson Farm that Lloyd owned at the time!

But why did they then need to PURCHASE three additional acres along that road for $7,500? I think the Johnson farm western boundary at the top of the "L" was a whole lot closer to that road delineation on their working topo maps than we think it was and a lot closer than these amateur surveyor Google Earth measurers on here think it was with their constant colored lines on aerials and on old unreliable proposed plans and PRR plat map using their boundaries for measurements.

So, I think what they had to do to fit those last five holes in the way they are now is take the road delineation of Golf House Road in a few spots right over the western boundary of the old Johnson farm that Lloyd owned up to on his Dec. 19, 1910 deed and right into the Taylor estate on the other side. I think they did that to a total of 3 acres at a couple of points up and down what became Golf House Road and THAT is why they needed to PURCHASE three additional acres because Horatio Gates Lloyd's Dec. 19, 1910 deed did NOT INCLUDE any acreage of the Taylor estate. At those points they were not on Lloyd's land, they were on HDC's and for it they just agreed to pay the going residential acre price of $7,500 for three more acres (3 acres at $2,500 per acre=$7,500)

[JESII]

But then why would they give back land to the west if they were also buying land?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

On the 1908 RR Map, that northern part of the Johnson property measures about 600 feet wide, which seems enough without having to get to the Franklin property.

Are you saying that the Railroad map was that much off?

[TEPaul]

"But then why would they give back land to the west if they were also buying land?"


Sully:

Because that is what they felt the designs of those last five holes dictated. Try to imagine that the curvatures of Golf House Road from top to bottom had nothing to do with some aesthetic curvilinear line that some land planner decided to draw or do. The delineation of that road today from Ardmore Ave to College Ave. was completely contingent on the designs of those holes that run the length of Golf House Road, particularly the last five, the final five holes of Merion East.

And that was precisely why Lloyd was in the position he was in holding land for those seven months and on the recommendation of MCC's lawyer. He held that land for that timespan simply to be able to adjust boundaries at will. That is not speculation it is very clearly written in Merion's own records.

That road delineation had no other purpose than that----to get those final five holes in that way and to finalize the enclosed land total of Merion East that needed to be X----in their case 120.1 instead of the originally agreed to amount of 117.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

On the 1908 RR Map, that northern part of the Johnson property measures about 600 feet wide, which seems enough without having to get to the Franklin property.

Are you saying that the Railroad map was that much off?"




Yes, I am saying that. I'm also saying the Smith then Eaton place whose total acreage had not changed is dimensionally off a whole lot more than that on the PRR plat maps of 1908 and 1913!! 1908 is dimensionally correct but 1913 is dimensionally all off----way too narrow and of the very same length.

Don't forget, I sold real estate around here for twenty years. Nobody but nobody used PRR plat maps for property measurements. That is not what they were done for at all. They were for far more illustrative and for larger and generalized information not the least reason being the PRR through the people who had one thing or another to do with it pretty much was the engine that created the entire 50,000 acre Main Line out of what was once known as "The Welsh Tract."

[TEPaul]

Here's another interesting item.

If we can assume that the east and west boundaries of that block of the old Johnson Farm across from the 2nd green were fairly parallel then the linear dimension from the corner of the old Smith/Eaton place and Ardmore Ave (behind #2 green) all the way east along Ardmore Ave to the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm on Ardmore Ave was 701 yards. Using the same starting point to the intersection of Golf House Road and Ardmore Ave today is 583 yards.

That would mean that at the southern end of Golf House Road the road curves significantly into the old Taylor Estate to the west of the Johnson Farm western boundary at the top of the "L" in that lower portion.

Horatio Gates Lloyd never owned any of the old Taylor estate! 

[Mike_Cirba]

It sounds like you're making progress, Tom.   

By the Eaton propoerty however, are you talking about the land marked Mrs. Agnes T. Smith above the Dallas Estate on the 1908 RR map?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

I think Sully is asking about the 3 acres of railroad land where the old 12th green/13th hole were.

You aren't saying those 3 acres were involved in the swap, were you?"



When those MCC meeting minutes were found by Wayne et al less than a year ago and we had a chance to read those April 19, 1911 MCC Board meeting minutes that include the Thompson Resolution, for the longest time we thought the app. 3 acres we know as the P&W Railroad land where the old 12th green and part of the 13th once were was what was being referred to by the Thompson Resolutions mention of the purchase of three additional acres.

It wasn't. I first came to realize that less than a month ago. MCC completely realized they did not have to purchase that railroad land and that is why we have the lease between MCC and the P&W Railroad that was executed on May 4, 1911, just weeks AFTER that April 19, 1911 MCC board meeting in which the final Wilson Committee routing and design plan was approved by the board to be built. The lease for that P&W land lasted until 1961 when someone at Merion realized they were still paying a rental on that land. Apparently for many years Merion actually thought they had bought that land way back when.  

[TEPaul]

"By the Eaton propoerty however, are you talking about the land marked Mrs. Agnes T. Smith above the Dallas Estate on the 1908 RR map?"

Yes.

[JESII]

Mike and Tom,

to be clear, I was not talking about the railroad land...

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not sure if this helps, but check it out.

On the 1908 RR Map, the Franklin property is listed at 36 acres and the Johnson Farm at 140 acres.

The Johnson Farm northern boundary also measures about 600 feet wide, as I mentioned before.

BUT...

On the 1900 RR Map, the Franklin property is listed at 55 acres and the Johnson Farm at 140 acres.

The Johnson Farm northern boundary there measures 410-430 feet wide!

The propoerty adjacent to the Franklin property on the south, west, and northern borders stayed the same so I'm not sure how it shrunk between 1900 and 1908, and the Johnson Farm got fatter on the map, although not reflected in the acreage.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Here's another interesting item.

.......the linear dimension from the corner of the old Smith/Eaton place and Ardmore Ave (behind #2 green) all the way east along Ardmore Ave to the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm on Ardmore Ave was 701 yards. Using the same starting point to the intersection of Golf House Road and Ardmore Ave today is 583 yards.

If that is the case, isn't the latest iteration of Bryan's property lines still too far west?  Some of the road comparisons of the 1910 map and the way the road was built show No. 1 green on land west of the approximate 1910 alignment.

I think the better Google measurement task (or Metes reading) would be to get an acreage of the other side of Ardmore.  We know they started with 117 acres, and if we subtract that amount, we could figure the width of the north leg of the L. 

I haven't quite figured out why some think the entire Johnson farm was part of the original proposed MCC land deal.  It seems more logical to me that once the 100 to 117 acres was proposed, that they took the south part of Ardmore and gave it to MCC (in theory, the deeds came later) Then they had to assess the general acreage on the north of Ardmore and could have drawn a theoretical dividiing line anywhere, since it was important for Lloyd to retain as much development land as possible.  If the started at the creek/east boundary and made it wide enough to give the originally anticipated 100 acres, that line might have no relation to the original Johnson farm west boundary. 

Like TePaul, I think the original working boundary (just to throw in one more term to confuse things) was further east than Bryan depicts it, maybe a lot further east than even TePaul thinks.  It may even have cut off at the Haverford College line because the parcel wasn't any wider than that.

Just another theory, but then, no one else has put out a delination of the original MCC parcel they were trying to cram 5 holes into, so I feel justified. 

[JESII]

Tom,

Don't you think it's quite a coincidence that this "land planner" just happened to draw a meaningless road that almost identically matched what eventually was created?

I am truly confused about what you are suggesting.

I'm happy to rule out the road, but they had to be working within some sort of boundaries, correct?

I'd also be curious how "an exchange of land already purchased for land adjoining" still requires a purchase of three acres to create this transaction...

I cannot follow the recent posts about land further west (up by the second hole) although I understand part of the Johnson Farm was up there...is this where you guys are thinking part of this three-parcel swap/purchase took place?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

Don't you think it's quite a coincidence that this "land planner" just happened to draw a meaningless road that almost identically matched what eventually was created?"


Sully:

Well, first of all when you say some land planner just happened to draw a meaningless road have you even noticed yet that Nov. 15, 1910 PROPOSED land plan does not have the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm on it or the Taylor place to the west?

If some of the land used to design those last five holes actually pushed a few parts of Club House Road right over the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm (that Lloyd owned) into the Taylor Farm to the west next to it (that Lloyd did not own) are you really telling me you can't understand why the Thompson Resolution addressed the purchase of three additional acres for $7,500?

[DMoriarty]

Sully, 

They were definitely working on boundaries.   TEPaul has said in the past that late in December 1910 that the boundaries had not yet been DEFINITELY set.  That tells me that they were working on the boundaries, but hadn't finalized all of them.

Likewise,  TEPaul wrote that his hidden source material establishes that in late 1910 the plan for the golf course had not been DEFINITELY set.  Again, they had been working on the plan, but it was not yet definite. 

That is the only way to read it absent VERIFIABLE evidence to the contrary. 
 

[JESII]

If some of the land used to design those last five holes actually pushed a few parts of Club House Road right over the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm (that Lloyd owned) into the Taylor Farm to the west next to it (that Lloyd did not own) are you really telling me you can't understand why the Thompson Resolution addressed the purchase of three additional acres for $7,500?

Tom,

Is this undeniably what happened?

[DMoriarty]

Tom,

Is this undeniably what happened?

Of course this isn't undeniably what happened.  It isn't even what could have possibly happened. The top of the johnson farm was much wider than 130 yards, and this is the only part that Francis mentions as having been gained in the land swap. 

This is just the latest wild goose chase that Bryan and I could work out in no time if we had access to the dimensions.   

Imagine the reaction if I was wrong as much has these guys are?   They are wrong more in any single thread than I was in my entire essay.

[TEPaul]

"If some of the land used to design those last five holes actually pushed a few parts of Club House Road right over the western boundary of the old Johnson Farm (that Lloyd owned) into the Taylor Farm to the west next to it (that Lloyd did not own) are you really telling me you can't understand why the Thompson Resolution addressed the purchase of three additional acres for $7,500?



Tom,

Is this undeniably what happened?"



Sully:

No, of course it isn't undeniably what happened at this point. But there is only one real accurate way to find out and as long as it's not too expensive that is exactly what I am going to do. Take these two deeds to a surveyor along with a 1928 Yerkes survey that also has the "as built" metes and bounds of Golf House Road on it and they will be able to tell exactly if any of Golf House Road goes into any land that once was part of the Taylor property. All they really need is the metes and bounds of Golf House Road and the metes and bounds of the western boundary at the top of the "L" of the old Johnson farm that is on the Dec. 19, 1910 deed of Lloyd's I got the other day from the Recorder of Deeds in Media.

Having done a measurement comparison from the same known point on Ardmore and assuming the east and west boundaries on that old section of the Johnson farm are fairly parallel the western boundary of the Johnson farm at Ardmore Ave was significantly to the east of the intersection of Golf House Road and Ardmore Ave and if it was I think the section between just below the 15th green to just below the 14th green was as well. Of course the road goes signficantly inside the old Johnson property at the top of the "L" up by College Ave as well as below the 14th green to about the tee and then it goes southwest again probably into the old Taylor estate.

But a surveyor can measure both the metes and bounds of the old western boundary at the top of the "L" of the old Johnson farm as well as the metes and bounds of Golf House Road, enclose them all and tell exactly what happened to about a foot.

[TEPaul]

" They were definitely working on boundaries.   TEPaul has said in the past that late in December 1910 that the boundaries had not yet been DEFINITELY set.  That tells me that they were working on the boundaries, but hadn't finalized all of them.

Likewise,  TEPaul wrote that his hidden source material establishes that in late 1910 the plan for the golf course had not been DEFINITELY set.  Again, they had been working on the plan, but it was not yet definite. 

That is the only way to read it absent VERIFIABLE evidence to the contrary."



Sully:


This man has a rather bad habit of trying to tell others what somebody else has said and what that means when he has no idea at all.

I did say that Cuylers said to the president of MCC on Dec 21, 1910 that the boundaries of the land to be acquired were as yet uncertain and that it was found advisable that Lloyd take land into his own name so that the lines could be revised subsequently. He then asked the president to inform him as soon as the boundaries had been definitely determined. Mind you, this letter was dated Dec. 21, 1910 and that is definitely after Nov. 15, 1910!

Cuylers did not say anything about a golf course plan being worked on at any time in 1910 and he did not say any boundaries were being worked on in 1910.   

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