[Mike_Cirba]

A couple of relevant points.



I wonder if Travis had the shovel and Emmett the pick or visa versa as they "laid out" the course on the ground  



Interesting how they bought the land, left the boundaries "loose", and then took 3 months designing the golf course and another two months building plasticene models of the holes before even beginning construction.

And from another paper;



Sound familiar??  


Tom Paul,

After taking THREE MONTHS to lay out and plan the golf course at NGLA and another two months to design it in plasticene before even beginning construction, imagine how Macdonald would have slapped any fool at Merion upside the head had they even suggested such a ridiculous thing as having him design their course in a couple of hours visit, much less a day!       

He'd have been highly insulted, I'm certain! 

Are you talking about these articles Shivas? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

This is from the September 3rd, 1916 Philadelphia Inquirer, drawing by William S. Flynn;






Now, can we please get back to reality...   

Let's start by perhaps you explaining how CB Macdonald needed 3 months to route NGLA and another two months to map it topographically before starting construction but somehow needed only 1 day to route and design Merion?   

[Charlie Goerges]

Alright! I want a shot at this whole Merion Google shenanigans.

[innermonologueON]
Okay, let's see here, start google earth...la la la

Find the world-famous Merion golf club...zippity zip.

There we are, now start measuring...Clickety, clickety, click, click, click, click....


Let's have a look...






Gosh that doesn't make sense, just zoom out a bit here and...


Oh, what the...
















Why I never!
[innermonologueOFF]

[Mike_Cirba]

Too funny, Charlie!   

[DMoriarty]

. . . there is NO WAY to go back any further and never has been a way to go back any further.    There is a freaking ROAD BEHIND IT! 

You are mistaken Mike.   The 1928 plan contemplates pushing the tee back, and closer to the college property, and establishes a legal right for MCC to play over a strip of land conveyed to the college.  It is not separately measured but it looks as if the back tee could be pushed back as far as 20-30 yards.

As for from where to begin measuring, I have it on good authority - Alan Wilson - that Merion measured from the middle of the back tee.  While measuring from the back of the back tee "would probably add 30 yards of length to [a] hole, it not only adds nothing to the play" it also deceives both "the stranger" and "the regular player" and "is pretty bad practice in what we believe to be essentially a sportsman's game."

And Mike,  Alan Wilson also claims that they measured along the ground, and for as long as they did so, there measurements were substantially off.   The hole was not truly 433 years from the middle of the back tee in 1916, at least not the way we measure today.   And the course was not 6235. Nor could it have been stretched to 6500 yards.  The measures were way off!    Check them if you do not believe me. 

[changed a typo above:  "along the road" to "along the ground"]

[JESII]

Mike C,

The 16th tee at Merion has been extended about 15 yards during my lifetime of playing there...about 15 years.

To your NGLA point, which I think is relevant to the extent that David M thought he needed it to provide a precedent for the structure that Merion Golf Club evolved out of...we must have extremely different comprehension skills (and I'll admit to not having the best) because I read that as full support for the notion of forming a corporation that will buy a large plot of land (Haverford Development Corp.) and letting the golf experts decide where the holes should generally go and then have the golfing offshoot of this enterprise actually purchase that amount of land from the developers...

Other than the fact that Merion actually already had a membership to take care of whereas NGLA was a new concept, how were Macdonald and Lloyd measurably different in their respective roles?

Truth be told, through all of this...especially the determination to follow only the strictest legal timeline...I don't think you all have gotten one inch closer to what actually happened because you're not letting yourselves...I'd be curious if Tom, Mike or David can sit back and try to answer my bolded question above...It obviously presumes my major contention on here that has gotten very little play about HGL spearheading the HDC initiative from the outset, but I've seen no evidence to refute it.


I am more convinced that the credit and responsibilities belong where they always have been and

[JESII]

WHAT DOES GOOGLE EARTH SAY ABOUT THE CARRY OUT OF THE QUARRY ON #18? sorry for the caps, not retyping...

[JESII]

Exactly...Shivas, you've been harping on the 170 carry (downhill) on 17, when the very next hole has a no options 200 yard uphill carry just to be able to play the hole...

[DMoriarty]

If I recall correctly, reports suggest that the tee was up close to the hazard edge.  If one looks at the old schematics, the tee was located well in front of the front of the 17th green.   The Brooklyn Eagle program from the 1916 open has the carry at 170 yards, but as most of Merion's numbers are overstated, I'd guess it was less.    The hole was listed at 420 yards, but it doesn't appear to have been much over 390, and actually looks to be less.

What is the current distance from the front tee?

Jim,  how far is it from the bottom of the down slope to the middle of the green?

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys,

For years the 16th was listed as 430.

Jim,

The add you witnessed might be why Andy's Google from the tips measured 440.

the drive on 17 is from a clifftop from a teed up ball.

The drive on 18 was from todays forward tee, I believe, again teed up.

Many early players looked at a 200 yd approach on 16 with the ball sitting down.  Is there a shot in golf more dead dull than the 80 yard layup?

They created an alternate fairway to play around...get used to it! 

Let's move on to something worthy of discussion like the NGLA origins and their parallels to Merion.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, 

If you want to talk about the parallels then start a thread on the origins of NGLA.  You need to understand NGLA before you can draw a parallel to Merion.  And you don't.   I'll be glad to address your points about NGLA in a new thread, but not here.    Thanks. 

Shivas,

While I agree with what you are saying about the length of the carry generally, I do think that the play to the right was part of the plan from the beginning.  Second shot carries are different in their nature than carries from the tee, in that the yardage to carry, if one chooses to, is determined by the result of the previous shot.   I know, because in my case the previous shot is usually pretty bad.

Plus, Macdonald and Whigham preferred alternate routes to approaches to greens on second shots, so that one could take a roundabout route and lose a stroke, rather than directly challenging a hazard, and the alternate route on this hole accomplishes just that.  If one misses their first shot, or is excessively cautious, then they could play to the right fairway and approach on their third shot.  A very Macdonald-like use of alternate lines of play for different calibers of golfer. 

That being said,  Mike's argument still does not fly.   For some bizarre reason I don't understand he is still insisting on using the location of the road in the 1910 plan as the exact boundary.  Yet we know that the location of the road was not the exact boundary.  So I have no idea how or why he justifies this. 

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I'm not using that 1910 Land Plan.

Recall I was the one who exposed it as a piece of dung some nights back. 

I do recall somewhat oddly that you were still rather fond of it, however.

Strange.

[Michael Blake]

I noticed today on my kids visit to the pediatrician that they completed a 3-way stop on Golf House Rd adjacent to the green on hole #1. 

Yes, that's their reward for being good at the Dr's office-a mini-van tour of holes #1, 14, 15 and tee shot on 16.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I'm not using that 1910 Land Plan.

Recall I was the one who exposed it as a piece of dung some nights back. 

I do recall somewhat oddly that you were still rather fond of it, however.

Strange.

Mike you are delusional.  I have long stated that the plan was not to scale and that the road was only in an approximate location. In fact it is in my essay. Don't you recall scolding me about how the plan was a legally legal document drawn by legally legalized legal surveyors and that had in not been perfect they'd have had a major scandal, lawsuit, and trial of the century on their hands?  And that it was outrageous that I would suggest otherwise?  Yet now it was you who exposed it as not being exact?   You guys are hilarious, you all seem to think that each time you are proven wrong that I had nothing to do with it and it was some sort of self-discovery.   Reminds me of when Wayne claimed that I really didn't get anything right in my essay because it was all just lucky guesses on my part.   Oh well.

But setting that aside, if you are not basing your theory about the 14th green and 15th tee on the 1910 plan, then on what is it based?   

What other than the 1910 Land Plan ever indicated that there was no room for the 14th green and 15th tee before the swap.   

____________________

Michael Blake, 

You mean you were right there and you didn't stop and make the kids crawl around for looking for a survey stone, and then GPS it?  Surely your minivan is equipped with an advanced GPS system?

[TEPaul]

"Other than the fact that Merion actually already had a membership to take care of whereas NGLA was a new concept, how were Macdonald and Lloyd measurably different in their respective roles?"


Sully:

How were they different in their respective rolls? That'a a pretty big question. What particular area are you thinking of----eg architecture, business, money raising, corporate structure etc?



"It obviously presumes my major contention on here that has gotten very little play about HGL spearheading the HDC initiative from the outset, but I've seen no evidence to refute it."




Either have I but HDC goes back probably close to a year it seems before HGL, as far as we can tell, really weighed in on all this in June of 1910 but one never knows. He was coming into that area anyway with his ALLGATES. He bought the first 25 acres of it in 1910 but I suppose the real question of it is was he looking at that area up to a year before when HDC was registered as a new Pennsylvania land development corporation?

I've done some background checking on Connell and Nickolson of HDC. Check them out yourself. In my opinion, there was no way at all that HGL didn't know those two. Both of them were not small time hitters in Philadelphia. Don't forget, Philly in those days was a lot smaller than now and that was the age of the "Trusts". You just cannot imagine the power and influence back then of the PRR. It was absolutely HUGE---perhaps the largest capitalization around the turn of the century of any corporation in history. Certainly the biggest stock trading in history at that time. It's budget was bigger than the US Government and it employed more people than the US Government----around 250,000!

These guys raised its capital by their stock underwriting and control. The PRR essentially created what is today the 50,000 acre Main Line. The corporate and affiliated tentacles of the PRR tried to turn it into some kind of recreation of the English Utopian countryside. Golf courses and residential development all over it was part of the over all plan. Alexander Cassatt (PRR chairman) renamed half the towns along the Main Line railroad corridor for God's Sake!

[TEPaul]

"That being said,  Mike's argument still does not fly.   For some bizarre reason I don't understand (why sic) he is still insisting on using the location of the road in the 1910 plan as the exact boundary.  Yet we know that the location of the road was not the exact boundary.  So I have no idea how or why he justifies this."




I don't believe he is talking about the 1910 PLAN. He's talking about the way the golf course was DESIGNED and built with the road as redelineated in 1911 directly behind the 16th tee. I think it is you who has just never figured out what the difference is and the reason probably is Francis's idea and the land swap just didn't happen in 1910 as you keep trying to contend it did; it happened in 1911.

[TEPaul]

"What other than the 1910 Land Plan ever indicated that there was no room for the 14th green and 15th tee before the swap."


ABSOLUTELY unbelievable question at this point!!!!!


WHAT INDICATED to Wilson and his committee AND FRANCIS certainly WAS NOT that Nov. 15, 1910 LAND PLAN!!!!

They were using TOPOGRAPHICAL (CONTOUR) survey maps to design that golf course. Do you know what the difference is between that Nov. 15, 1910 PROPOSED land plan and a TOPOGRAPHICAL (CONTOUR LINED) survey map, David Moriarty???

DO you SEE any topographical CONTOUR lines on that Nov. 15, 1910 LAND PLAN??? Has anyone who knows a jot about this club's course history ever implied they were using that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan to design Merion East???

THE POINT is if that "approximate road location" on that Nov, 15, 1910 plan was not dimensionally exact, THEIR topographical (CONTOUR lined) Survey maps obviously were DIMENSIONALLY EXACT BECAUSE THEY had to contain 117 acres that MCC agreed to buy from HDC within that PROPOSED DELINEATION of Club House Road, AND certainly AFTER Lloyd bought the 161 acres on Dec, 19, 1910 WITH Cuylers explanation that he was in the postion to move boundary lines around at will. And that is precisely WHY the Thompson Resolution was offered on April, 19, 1911 TO incorporate and approve the Francis land swap which was an "exchange" of land ADJOINING ALREADY PURCHASED AND the additional PURCHASE of 3 acres.

That was obviously because the delineation on their working Topos of Club House Road was exact even though it wasn't on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan! And this is WHY the Francis Land Swap happened AFTER Lloyd owned that land (Dec. 19, 1910) and NOT before that date!!!

It blows my mind that you perhaps haven't figured this out at this point or admitted it! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't even know why we're discussing the overall length of Merion's 16th hole.  The issue Mike raised was that the short hitters couldn't hit it over the quarry - a whopping 110 yards or so - so Merion NEEDED to do the land sway or else they could never have fit 5 holes in that triangle.  That's his position.  The fact that the carry on 17 is way, way longer apparently is irrelevant because there's an article about NGLA now ... in essence, Mike has yet again, diverted himself away from his own (wrong) point ... 

Shivas,

That's Mike's specialty.

When the heat gets turned up to where it doesn't look good for his position, he attempts to divert the focus.

Since Mike likes to use the infallibility of newspapers IF they agree with his point, just look at the one that describes the 16th hole as a hole with a drive all down hill, leaving an iron to a slightly uphill green.

That doesn't sound very heroic does it ?

Golfers were driving to a point that would leave them an iron to a slightly uphill green.
Thus, the carry seemed to be of NO consequence to the author.


[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Topographical Survey Maps shouldn't go out of existance.

I know that you've insisted that they worked off of a TSM, but, to date, that TSM hasn't been found.

Weren't TSM's initiated by the United States Geological Survey starting in 1879 ?

Shouldn't they be inventoried and available as part of the USGS archives ?

I know that you and others have indicated that you found it difficult to fully comprehend Topos.
Do you think these novices were skilled at reading topos and interpolating and transposing architectural design onto them ?
I doubt it.

I think they were probably foot walkers, observers of the land who understood golf, and not skilled architects capable of transposing architectural concepts onto the topos.

I can't recall seeing any design schematic layed out on a topo in the very early part of the 20th Century, can you ?

These fellows weren't Tom Doak's equal, they were novices, unskilled, untested amateurs in an arena that they were unfamiliar with, namely, GCA.

I've stated, many times that I'm fascinated by Raynor's alter ego, Francis, an engineer who might have understood the topos, who worked IN THE FIELD on the golf course.

I've always wondered how much of the design and construction work he was responsible for.

[Mike_Cirba]

"What other than the 1910 Land Plan ever indicated that there was no room for the 14th green and 15th tee before the swap."


ABSOLUTELY unbelievable question at this point!!!!!


WHAT INDICATED to Wilson and his committee AND FRANCIS certainly WAS NOT that Nov. 15, 1910 LAND PLAN!!!!

They were using TOPOGRAPHICAL (CONTOUR) survey maps to design that golf course. Do you know what the difference is between that Nov. 15, 1910 PROPOSED land plan and a TOPOGRAPHICAL (CONTOUR LINED) survey map, David Moriarty???

DO you SEE any topographical CONTOUR lines on that Nov. 15, 1910 LAND PLAN??? Has anyone who knows a jot about this club's course history ever implied they were using that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan to design Merion East???

THE POINT is if that "approximate road location" on that Nov, 15, 1910 plan was not dimensionally exact, THEIR topographical (CONTOUR lined) Survey maps obviously were DIMENSIONALLY EXACT BECAUSE THEY had to contain 117 acres that MCC agreed to buy from HDC within that PROPOSED DELINEATION of Club House Road, AND certainly AFTER Lloyd bought the 161 acres on Dec, 19, 1910 WITH Cuylers explanation that he was in the postion to move boundary lines around at will. And that is precisely WHY the Thompson Resolution was offered on April, 19, 1911 TO incorporate and approve the Francis land swap which was an "exchange" of land ADJOINING ALREADY PURCHASED AND the additional PURCHASE of 3 acres.

That was obviously because the delineation on their working Topos of Club House Road was exact even though it wasn't on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan! And this is WHY the Francis Land Swap happened AFTER Lloyd owned that land (Dec. 19, 1910) and NOT before that date!!!

It blows my mind that you perhaps haven't figured this out at this point or admitted it! 

Tom,

Exactly.

The 1910 Land Plan is a friggin Joke, a piece of dung, although David still uses it as the cornerstone of this contention that the Francis Land Swap happened in before that time.

It's extremely comical.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've stated, many times that I'm fascinated by Raynor's alter ego, Francis, an engineer who might have understood the topos, who worked IN THE FIELD on the golf course.

I've always wondered how much of the design and construction work he was responsible for.

Patrick,

Have you read the thread started by David today that has Francis's story included in full?

He answers your questions exactly.

[Mike_Cirba]

A couple of relevant points.



I wonder if Travis had the shovel and Emmett the pick or visa versa as they "laid out" the course on the ground  



Interesting how they bought the land, left the boundaries "loose", and then took 3 months designing the golf course and another two months building plasticene models of the holes before even beginning construction.

And from another paper;



Sound familiar??  


Tom Paul,

After taking THREE MONTHS to lay out and plan the golf course at NGLA and another two months to design it in plasticene before even beginning construction, imagine how Macdonald would have slapped any fool at Merion upside the head had they even suggested such a ridiculous thing as having him design their course in a couple of hours visit, much less a day!       

He'd have been highly insulted, I'm certain! 

Let's get back to the real issue and stop the diversions.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Please stop blowing smoke up our respective butts.

ANY design feature on ANY course is "advisable".

ALL That is ever necessary is a tee and a hole.

The hole could have been a 10 yard wide bowling alley with a 400 yard carry.   There are no rules.

But don't tell me that seniors and ladies at Merion with hickory shafts were going to make that carry and the hole would have presented absolutely ZERO options to them.

Also...

EVERYBODY here thought the 1910 Land Plan meant something significant, until I blew the lid off the fact that the surveyors JUST DREW A CURVING ROAD UP THE MIDDLE OF THE JOHNSON FARM.

The land plan is useless, yet David still contends it means something and it remains the cornerstone of his liferaft.

[Mike_Cirba]

Excellent point, Jim.  I call that a fallback position.  They did, after all, get to tee it up and hit a driver on 18.

What say you, Mike?  You going to hold firm on this notion that the reason for the swap was that 16 HAD TO BE wider because the bunt hitters couldn't carry the quarry at 16?  If so, what do you tell them....to just walk in after 16 because if they can't make the carry on 16, there's no way in hell they can make the carry on 17 or 18? 

Mrs. Cirba...oh, Mrs. Cirba...can Mikey come out to play?

Mike, you gonna ignore this question forever, or at least until you're done whipping yourself into your latest frenzy over the irrelevent NGLA article?

Shivas,

My lord, why are you working so hard to keep the NGLA stuff off the first page.

Who the hell cares whether the alternate fairway on 16 that created a need for more width in that section was "necessary" or "advisable".

Perhaps it's a lawyer thing.   

Fact facts, man....

Last night David and Patrick were telling me I was lying about NGLA and Macdonald.

Tonight, they are focused on what...

the fact that the alternate 16th fairway is "necessary" or advisable"??   

IT"S BECAUSE THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH ABOUT NGLA, and you're just providing them cover while they RUN. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Let's start again from the top...

From David's essay;;

"The committee did not request an approximate acreage, but “required” specific land measuring “nearly 120 acres.” As will be discussed below, this was because the routing had already been planned."

"Merion Purchased the Land they Needed for their Golf Course."

"It has been widely assumed that Merion bought the land before Merion East was planned. To the contrary, Merion bought the land upon which their golf course had already been envisioned. Macdonald and Whigham had chosen the land for NGLA in a similar fashion. They first inspected the land and found the golf holes they wanted to build, and then they purchased that land.  In Chapter 10 of Scotland’s Gift, Macdonald explained that he had chosen the best land for golf from a much larger 405-acre parcel."

"The company agreed to sell us 205 acres, and we were permitted to locate it as to best serve our purpose. Again, we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted."

"In all likelihood Merion also made the purchase based on where the golf holes fit best. The major difference between the approaches at Merion and NGLA? At NGLA, Macdonald and Whigham did not veer off the large parcel from which they were to choose the course, while Merion had to go outside a 300-acre tract to two additional parcels to suit their requirements."


David had us believe that Macdonald at NGLA would purchase only the land they needed for the already routed and designed golf course.   He then went on to claim that this is also exactly what happened at Merion....that the course was designed first, and then land was purchased based on the routing.   It's sort of a neat little trick to try to fit Macdonald's single, one-day visit in June 1910 into some act of routing the golf course before that time, because that's the ONLY TIME Macdonald could have done it as he only visited one other time in April 1911 and we've already proven that he couldn't have designed it then.   This premise, of Macdonald doing all of this on a single day in the summer of 1910 is FUNDAMENTAL to his theory, and he uses the supposed fact that this was first done at NGLA to wholly support his argument.   Yet, what do we learn from Macdonald himself??"

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