[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Thanks for the information.  Do you know if Ardmore is/was also part of the Merion land, and it also was "dedicated" to the township?  Just curious.  I suspect it might have been, else why would they have designed three holes to play over it."



Bryan:


Again, Ardmore Ave is a dedicated road and it was when Lloyd and then MCCGA bought the Merion golf course property. I don't know whether it's a road that was dedicated to the township, County or state but that wouldn't be hard to find out even though it doesn't really matter, at least not for measurement purposed of property and titles. Road dedication is probably a permanent "easement" that "runs with the land." Remember I mentioned that yesterday?

For property measurment if one is measuring the property enclosed within say the old Johnson Farm and some or the same land that is now Merion East Golf Course, if on both sides of say Ardmore Ave, one measures right down the centerline of Ardmore Ave, from a particular point to another particular measured point. In the Dec. 19 1910 deed the Johnson farm was on both sides of Ardmore Ave and on the 7/21/1911 deed a section of the golf course was on both sides of Ardmore Ave and the old western section of the Johnson farm across from the present second hole became part of HDC land until a point at the intersection of Ardmore Ave and the new road to be built by HDC. That would become Golf House Road.

From that point one measures right up the centerline of Club House Road from Ardmore Ave to a point in the centerline of College Ave. Everything on the east side of that was Merion Golf course and on the left or west side was HDC.

Interestingly the Club House Road delineation between MCC and HDC is the only part of the golf course that actually adjoins HDC and was considered for golf holes and that is why I believe only that section was what could've been referred to in Thompson's Resolution to the board on 4/19/1911 as the exchange of land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining! I think the same can be said for the additional three acres to be purchased for $7,500 that the resolution also addressed. I believe both were what we call the Francis land swap.

[Mike_Cirba]

I trust I'm not being overly speculative here when I state that it seems perhaps the most valuable and wise advice Macdonald gave to Merion was to seriously reconsider any possible "plans" to use "One-Day Wonder" English pro H.H. Barker as so many early clubs were doing with Foreign professional "experts" and instead take their time, do their homework, and pattern their plans after what he and his amateur sportsmen friends had done at NGLA.

[Andy Hughes]

  The beauty of this is that your ballstriking and my ballstriking are irrelevant as well.  The distance over the quarry is measurable and ascertainable.  It's actually more than that - it's been measured and ascertained.  And you're wrong.  Period.  From where the normal tee was in 1912 to carry the quarry was barely 360 yards.  You insist it was 420, but that's simply not true and you know it.  Hell, TODAY, from the WAY-BACK tee, the as the crow files distance is 430 to the center of the green and far less than that to carry the quarry.  And that's from the stretched, re-stretched and re-re-stretched WAY-BACK tee.  Sooner or later, somebody is going to post a snap-shot of the Google earth measurements over the quarry on #16 and #17 and reveal how totallly and completely wrong you are (I'd do it myself but I don't know how). That will show that either (A) your methodology in terms of measuring anything is sorely lacking and not worthy of consideration or (B) you just enjoy fabricating facts and trying to pass them off as reality. 

So what's it going to be?  Are you going to fold and fess up that you're all wet on this and live to fight another day, or is somebody going to beat you to it, post the smoking Google Earth gun at your head first and put you out of your misery first?

It looks to be around 100 yards from the edge of the fairway to the front edge of the green. I have never been to Merion and am quite sure I am about to get blasted somehow(and I blame you Shivas! ) I should add, I have no idea if things (i.e. mowing patterns, green locations etc.) were the same then as they are on Google Earth today

[TEPaul]

"It occurs to me, based on the quote from Tom below, that perhaps the 1910 deed doesn't have metes on it. He happily mentions metes on the 1911 deed and the 1920 survey, but on the the 1910 deed he just got, all he's mentioned is acreage.  Why am I so suspicious?      And, does he really need a surveyor to tell him the metes of the road are the same in 1911 and the 1920's.  You could tell just by reading them.  Unless of course the road moved.   "


Bryan:

Maybe one of the reasons you're so suspicious is you don't know much about real estate or real estate in Pennsylvania. Do you come from Pennsylvania? I sold real estate in Pennsylvania for about twenty years basically concentrating on the sale a farms and large acreage places so I certainly know how to read metes and bounds, not to even mention that real estate brokers in Pennsylvania are licensed by the state and they have to go to school and pass tests on such things as metes and bounds, contracts etc, etc or they won't be able to maintain their real estate licenses. It was never unusual for various clients to actually want to go out on land they were buying to look at the various "momuments" (generally surveyor stones) in the ground for fairly obvious reasons. The 1910  deed had metes and bounds on it. Matter of fact, all Pennsylvania deeds for the last couple of hundred years at least have surveyor metes and bounds on them for all kinds of practical and legal reasons.

As for the metes and bounds on the Dec. 21, 1911 deed of the Club House Road compared to the later Yerkes' survey metes and bounds of the Club House Road of course I can just read both and compare them and I will but if they are different in some way one good reason might be in 1911 that road was not built yet but on the Yerkes survey it was.

[TEPaul]

Bryan:

I'm going over to Merion today. It's not much of a day but if there's time how about if we get a laser rangefinder and measure the distance between that point at the end of the fairway and the front of the green and if it's appreciably different from the measurement you just got on the Google Earth ruler or whatever it is, what are we supposed to think of your measuring of any of the acreages of Merion then? Would you like the essayist has always done on here just say we are mistaken somehow too like everyone else who was around Merion back then with Hugh Wilson and his committee?

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

What you just said on post #887 I've been saying on here for years now. It never got much traction on here though. You can see in the back pages that Tom MacWood used to refer to that "amateur/sportsman" idea of mine with Macdonald et al and MCC et al as "my "amateur/sportsman" schtick!" 

We even put Sayer's 50 year anniversary speech in 1915 that concentrated on the extreme "amateur/sportsman" ethos of MCC on here as proof of it, but noone paid any attention to that either.

The fact is MCC never paid a dime to any outside architect at that time or for many years to come. Like Macdonald and Whigam and his amateur friends they just did it themselves.

The "amateur/sportsman" era in architecture is not just NOT "my schtick", it is one of the truly fascinating eras and events in the history of golf course architecture. Tracking how and why it begun is really interesting but I believe tracking why and particularly when it ended rather suddenly and was really never done again as it had been is even more interesting.

There is little question in my mind that it ended when it did because those types of men who had done it previously like Leeds, Fownes, Crump, Wilson, Thomas, Macdonald/Whigam could see that the professionals had finally gotten organized and began to concentrate on architecture full time as a profession instead of coming in for a day or two on the fly before they had to get back to their clubs where they were golf professionals, clubmakers, teachers or greenkeepers.

The problem for those early multi-tasking part-time professional architects in America back then who were almost all immigrants from GB is I think their reputations with architecture suffered quite a bit with a whole lot of people back then not because they may not have had talent but because they just spent so little time with it on any project because they had to get back to their day jobs. And I think that's why the likes of Leeds, Fownes, Wilson, Crump, Macdonald et al often took years and even decades on their special projects like Myopia, Oakmont, Merion, Pine Valley and NGLA.

The people on this website who don't understand this or appreciate it and just sort of ignore it I think are missing a very large and extremely important factor in the evolution of golf course architecture.

[Andy Hughes]

Bryan:

I'm going over to Merion today. It's not much of a day but if there's time how about if we get a laser rangefinder and measure the distance between that point at the end of the fairway and the front of the green and if it's appreciably different from the measurement you just got on the Google Earth ruler or whatever it is, what are we supposed to think of your measuring of any of the acreages of Merion then? Would you like the essayist has always done on here just say we are mistaken somehow too like everyone else who was around Merion back then with Hugh Wilson and his committee?

Tom, I posted the image and measurement above, not Bryan. If I have made a mistake it should have no bearing on anything Bryan has done.
However, what if the measurement is correct?

[Mike_Cirba]

Andy,

You're correct; it's about 100 yards of carry over the quarry, once you've traversed the first 300 yards to get there.

For the poor suckers with hickory and gutta percha, it was a fearsome second shot carry unless you really whomped a drive, and most were looking at something in the neighborhood of 200 yards to the middle of the green after a 220 yard drive.

It is why the strategic designers of Merion East created an alternate fairway around the quarry.  

One could argue, why not just lay up short?  

Of course, one always had and has that option, but there's not much fun in pitching the ball 80 yards or so.   Instead, the architects thoughtfully created the alternative option of trying to get over to higher ground around the quarry on the right.

However, all of this doesn't mean a hill of beans and is a complete diversion on Shivas's part from the actual matter at hand.

In the immortal words of Bill Murray, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER".  

This is a smokescreen to deflect discussion from the fact that the NGLA articles have just shown beyond any doubt that Merion was not conceived or designed as per David's essay.  

Tom Paul,

I know you did.   It's just great to read it from the original source.  

[TEPaul]

"However, what if the measurement is correct?"


Andy:

Then I would say you know how to measure accurately from the end of the fairway to the front of the green on Merion's #16 with whatever Internet measuring tool you are using.

[Andy Hughes]

Andy,

You're correct; it's about 100 yards of carry over the quarry, once you've traversed the first 300 yards to get there.

For the poor suckers with hickory and gutta percha, it was a fearsome second shot carry unless you really whomped a drive, and most were looking at something in the neighborhood of 200 yards to the middle of the green after a 200 yard drive.

It is why the strategic designers of Merion East created an alternate fairway around the quarry.  

One could argue, why not just lay up short?  

Of course, one always had and has that option, but there's not much fun in pitching the ball 80 yards or so.   Instead, the architects thoughtfully created the alternative option of trying to get over to higher ground around the quarry on the right.

However, all of this doesn't mean a hill of beans and is a complete diversion on Shivas's part from the actual matter at hand.

In the immortal words of Bill Murray, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER".  

This is a smokescreen to deflect discussion from the fact that the NGLA articles have just shown beyond any doubt that Merion was not conceived or designed as per David's essay.  

Tom Paul,

I know you did.   It's just great to read it from the source.  

Mike, I really have no dog in this fight, and have tried my best to keep up and to spearate the wheat from the chaff (not too well I might add).  How long was the hole originally? If the tee was just off the 15th green, Google Earth shows it would have been around 375 to the center and 360 to the front edge (assuming the green was in the same location and the same size as now). Is that not correct? Is it uphill to the quarry or green?

PS Far more importantly, did you see the pictures of Water Gap posted last week? Didn't it warm your heart?  

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Not only do I think that's the advice Macdonald/Whigam gave MCC in June, 1910 (and his letter proves it) but I also think THAT is the very reason THEY asked HIM to visit Ardmore in June 1910 in the first place. And I've said that too on numerous of these Merion threads but that seemed to have been ignored too.  

To be honest I have a very hard time believing those men from Merion would have or even could have been so presumptious as to actually ask Macdonald/Whigam to route and design a golf course for them. First of all they all knew and understood he was not a professional golf course architect and second of all even if some on here don't seem to understand it or want to acknowledge it, certainly they all knew that one does not just route and design a golf course in a single day, at least one like Macdonald or Whigam certainly didn't and clearly never would've even tried.

Some on here talk about FACTS, and demand of us FACTS!!

Well, the most important FACT that BEGINS MCC's timeline is obviously that LETTER from Macdonald to Lloyd on June 29, 1910. What it says is pretty clear but it is also clear what it says just does not support the revisionist scenarios and theories of some on here and so what that letter actually says gets continuously ignored and dismissed or rationalized away on here by them.

NOT by us it doesn't and it without question is one of the most IMPORTANT FACTS in this early stage of Merion East! By the way, as I've also said numerous times on here, THAT letter of Macdonald's to Lloyd on June 29, 1910 was not available to anyone BEFORE that essay was written and put on here. That too is always conveniently ignored or dismissed or rationalized away on here by those constantly demanding actual FACTS!

My advice to them if they want to have an intelligent discussion of this entire time is to go back and much more carefully analyze and consider the actual FACTS we have already given them. Then perhaps something beneficial may come of all this on this Discussion Forum some day.

[Mike_Cirba]

A couple of relevant points.



I wonder if Travis had the shovel and Emmett the pick or visa versa as they "laid out" the course on the ground  



Interesting how they bought the land, left the boundaries "loose", and then took 3 months designing the golf course and another two months building plasticene models of the holes before even beginning construction.

Sound familiar??  


Tom Paul,

After taking THREE MONTHS to lay out and plan the golf course at NGLA and another two months to design it in plasticene before even beginning construction, imagine how Macdonald would have slapped any fool at Merion upside the head had they even suggested such a ridiculous thing as having him design their course in a couple of hours visit, much less a day!       

He'd have been highly insulted, I'm certain! 

Andy,

Like Kevin Costner reviewing the Zapruder film, the 16th tee was "back and to the right", of the 15th green.   I would think it's exact location would be near the property boundary, as they clearly wanted to make it a hole of significant robustness.

Tillinghast listed it at 415 when the course opened.

Love the pics of Water Gap! 

[Mike_Cirba]

Ran & Ben,

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do NOT take down this thread.   I believe the guilty parties, including moi, have gone back and removed offending posts.

I think we've all learned more here about the early history of golf course architecture in America than we could have any other way because we worked it out ourselves and continue to.

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

You know that article you just produced about NGLA really is interesting as an analogy to what MCC did and perhaps Macdonald and Whigam advised them to do on that day in June, 1910.

It is certainly not lost on me that within two days (July 1, 1910) Robert Lesley, the chairman of the so-called "Search Committee on New Golf Grounds," had written a report to the board on not just Macdonald's visit and about the ground itself but also with what that committee suggested MCC should consider doing in the upcoming months or year with a BUSINESS STRUCTURE (what would become the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association Corporation, a second class Pennsylvania holding company registered in the beginning of Dec. 1910 with essentially all these same men as the original 10% of total stock stockholders (required for stock corporation registration purposes). Again, btw, Lloyd would become the president of that very corporation (MMCGA Co.)

Lesley even prefaced the latter point and suggestion in his report that he understood that kind of advice may not technically be in the purview of that particular "ad hoc" committee but they were offering it anyway.

I'll explain more about that later (MCC and the old Haverford course had a business structure somewhat like this anyway known as the Haverford Land Improvement Company ironically (not HDC)) but it would seem pretty odd if Macdonald and Lloyd had not discussed THAT too on that day in June when Macdonald visited. At that point, I think Lloyd had already purchased the beginning of ALLGATES across the street and we sure do know what Lloyd did for a living. It's probably worth noting that MCC recorded that Rodman Griscom asked Macdonald to come down for that June 1910 visit but Macdonald wrote his letter reviewing his visit not to Lesley, the chairman of that "ad hoc" search committee or to Griscom who asked him down but to Horatio Gates Lloyd, c/o Drexel & Co, Philadelpia, Pa.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,

After taking THREE MONTHS to lay out and plan the golf course at NGLA and another two months to design it in plasticene before even beginning construction, imagine how Macdonald would have slapped any fool at Merion upside the head had they even suggested such a ridiculous thing as having him design their course in a couple of hours visit, much less a day!         
 

He'd have been highly insulted, I'm certain!" 






Mike Cirba:

It is definitely pretty far out of the context of a thread subject like this one but an extremely important and interesting subject nonetheless and one I even once asked David Moriarty if he would be interested in pursuing with me. He refused. I actually asked him again shortly thereafter and he refused again.

What I had suggested to him, knowing his interest in Macdonald himself, and explaining to him my own interest in the man, and not just in the context of his involvement in the American world of golf course architecture but also with his involvement in his larger world of golf administration, Rules, and his life in the business world.

My point to him was some of these people were all one and the same back then, certainly including in the business world. In other words, most all of them and certainly the important and powerful ones most certainly were never strangers to one another!

My addtional point was that even if modern times and those on this website seem to think Charles Blair Macdonald was the King of the Hill, The Father of American Golf Architecture, and apparently in most cases even those powerful men such as Lloyd, Griscom et al from MCC and Philadelphia and others such as Morgan and Vanderbilt and Mackey and Cravath, Whitney, Havermeyer et al with his course projects in New York WERE NOT the kind of men a guy like C.B. Macdonald called idiots and SLAPPED UPSIDE THE HEAD!!!

Not if he felt like keeping his own day job as a floor broker for Barney & Co on Wall Street! 

The larger world of Macdonald is truly interesting and I believe I'm going to write it, and maybe as an In My Opinion piece on here some day. I already have the title for it-----"Macdonald's World."

My point is Macdonald really was a massively complex man but what I have seen from him studying his working relationships with men like those particularly around New York and also here, is that Charlie Macdonald definitely knew "when to "HOLD 'em and WHEN to FOLD 'em" and to me that is truly fascinating and very little understood by most. There is also no question that he did have something of a personal problem, at least by the late teens or '20s, he knew it, they knew it, and in that world of those kinds of people back then they also sort of tended to deal with it sub rosa, and I would also have to say somewhat sympathetically or at least empathetically, if you catch my drift.

In the larger context it is a truly interesting tapestry and needs to be told. Parts of it should never be limited or dismissed or ignored of hidden away. Telling it ALL, warts and all, I think only serves to do them all justice for what they really were and what they managed to accomplish in their often complex lives and times!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Wholly understood and completely agreed, but I'm also sure that Macdonald would have WANTED to slap upside the head any fool who would have suggested such an idea to him. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Why would Andy measure from the middle of the tee if they bought land back to the boundary for the tee?

In any case, this is a diversion and a red herring.

Perhaps you'd rather comment on the REAL issue here, the very revealing NGLA articles?

[TEPaul]

What Macdonald WANTED to do with some people and what he obviously knew he COULDN'T do with some people goes right to the heart of what I mean to say. Some people on here seem to think and they have said that some of the people Macdonald tended to deal with and gravitate towards shouldn't be discussed or even mentioned. I think that is just an incredibly short-sighted and unbenefical thing to say and do and think.

Some on here apparently have tried to make a big issue of say the way MCC or even Macdonald dealt with say H.H. Barker than was really the case as was recorded and as the FACTS support. But that was not to be the case with the way Macdonald or say MCC dealt with the likes of say Horatio Gates Lloyd!   


In a letter from Alan Wilson to Russell Oakley about Oakley's 1920s something visit to NGLA:
"Did Charlie try to take your head off?"

Letter back from Oakley to Alan Wilson:
"Not exactly, but he did allow as everyone was a bunch of idiots."

[TEPaul]

For anyone who may still be unclear on the point, I should say what our new understanding is of something Francis said in his story and apparently MCC did.

He said it was easy to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion of the "L" with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore Ave. I think we can fairly safely assume by that ground on the north side of Ardmore Ave he probably meant the app 3 acre tract behind the clubhouse and next to the P&W railroad that belonged to the P&W Railroad.

But we thought for the longest time that when the Thompson Resolution of 4/19/1911 referred to the land "exchange" with land adjoining ALREADY PURCHASED AND the purchase of 3 additional acres for $7,500 that the purchase of the 3 additional acreas was ALSO referring to that 3 acre railroad tract.

It didn't and it wasn't. It was referring to 3 additional acres to the west of HDC residential ground. We think the sum total of both items referred to by the Thompson Resolution to the board on 4/19/1911 was the sum total of what we call the Francis land swap. And the total acreage of the July, 21, 1911 deed passing the 120.1 acres to MCCGA Co. compared to the 117 acres MCC originally agreed to buy from HDC pretty much confirms it.

It also might be very interesting and indicative of when those involved at MCC still referred to the total ground bought as 117 compared to the later increase of three acres and 120.1 (after Lloyd's agreement and after the approval of the Thompson Resolution on 4/19/1911 and after the formal recording of the July 21, 1911 deed). That alone may have some bearing on when the Francis fix idea actually happened!

The app. 3 acre railroad land long term situation is actually pretty funny. In the beginning of May, 1911 MCC or the MCCGA Co. created a lease for that land with the P&W Railroad. That lasted until 1961 when Merion G.C. actually bought that land from the P&W for $11,000. But the funny thing was, according to Merion records, it was someone from Merion in 1975 who just happened to notice the lease payment apparently and wondered about it because apparently Merion had actually thought they owned that land and had bought it way back when in 1911 or something. That is why they say they got around to buying it in 1961 because that is WHEN they realized they hadn't owned it all along.

[Bryan Izatt]

"Tom,
Thanks for the information.  Do you know if Ardmore is/was also part of the Merion land, and it also was "dedicated" to the township?  Just curious.  I suspect it might have been, else why would they have designed three holes to play over it."



Bryan:


Again, Ardmore Ave is a dedicated road and it was when Lloyd and then MCCGA bought the Merion golf course property. I don't know whether it's a road that was dedicated to the township, County or state but that wouldn't be hard to find out even though it doesn't really matter, at least not for measurement purposed of property and titles. Road dedication is probably a permanent "easement" that "runs with the land." Remember I mentioned that yesterday?

For property measurment if one is measuring the property enclosed within say the old Johnson Farm and some or the same land that is now Merion East Golf Course, if on both sides of say Ardmore Ave, one measures right down the centerline of Ardmore Ave, from a particular point to another particular measured point. In the Dec. 19 1910 deed the Johnson farm was on both sides of Ardmore Ave and on the 7/21/1911 deed a section of the golf course was on both sides of Ardmore Ave and the old western section of the Johnson farm across from the present second hole became part of HDC land until a point at the intersection of Ardmore Ave and the new road to be built by HDC. That would become Golf House Road.

From that point one measures right up the centerline of Club House Road from Ardmore Ave to a point in the centerline of College Ave. Everything on the east side of that was Merion Golf course and on the left or west side was HDC.

Interestingly the Club House Road delineation between MCC and HDC is the only part of the golf course that actually adjoins HDC and was considered for golf holes and that is why I believe only that section was what could've been referred to in Thompson's Resolution to the board on 4/19/1911 as the exchange of land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining! I think the same can be said for the additional three acres to be purchased for $7,500 that the resolution also addressed. I believe both were what we call the Francis land swap.

Tom,

I'm just trying to clarify that in the measurement of acreages, that in instances like Ardmore where Merion owns both sides of the road, that they would have included the area of the road as well, in the acreage.  The roadway itself is about three quarters of an acre.

[Andy Hughes]

Here it is from the back as a 3 shotter (assumed a 220 yard tee shot and a 150 yard second shot):



Here it is from the middle of the tee directly towards the green:

[Bryan Izatt]

"It occurs to me, based on the quote from Tom below, that perhaps the 1910 deed doesn't have metes on it. He happily mentions metes on the 1911 deed and the 1920 survey, but on the the 1910 deed he just got, all he's mentioned is acreage.  Why am I so suspicious?      And, does he really need a surveyor to tell him the metes of the road are the same in 1911 and the 1920's.  You could tell just by reading them.  Unless of course the road moved.   "


Bryan:

Maybe one of the reasons you're so suspicious is you don't know much about real estate or real estate in Pennsylvania. Do you come from Pennsylvania? I sold real estate in Pennsylvania for about twenty years basically concentrating on the sale a farms and large acreage places so I certainly know how to read metes and bounds, not to even mention that real estate brokers in Pennsylvania are licensed by the state and they have to go to school and pass tests on such things as metes and bounds, contracts etc, etc or they won't be able to maintain their real estate licenses. It was never unusual for various clients to actually want to go out on land they were buying to look at the various "momuments" (generally surveyor stones) in the ground for fairly obvious reasons. The 1910  deed had metes and bounds on it. Matter of fact, all Pennsylvania deeds for the last couple of hundred years at least have surveyor metes and bounds on them for all kinds of practical and legal reasons.

As for the metes and bounds on the Dec. 21, 1911 deed of the Club House Road compared to the later Yerkes' survey metes and bounds of the Club House Road of course I can just read both and compare them and I will but if they are different in some way one good reason might be in 1911 that road was not built yet but on the Yerkes survey it was.

Tom,

I am in no way questioning your real estate credentials.  I was merely pointing out that you had not mentioned metes on that map where you had on the others.  Why am I suspicious?  Probably because you are hoarding information that would clarify the metes.

Back to the facts, do you know when Golf House Road was actually built and when it opened?  We know that College, to the north of Merion was opened in 1910.  What about GHR?

[TEPaul]

Bryan:

The roadways themselves should be included in total deed and metes and bounds measurments of course considering who owns either side of a road at any time. For instance, with the old Johnson farm the Johnsons (later HDC and Lloyd) technically owned both side of Ardmore Ave when their property was on both sides of the road but with Golf House Road when it was built and dedicated MCC owned the eastern half and HDC the western half. Hope that helps. It is important to know what one should measure when one attempts to measure something, isn't it?

[TEPaul]

"Probably because you are hoarding information that would clarify the metes."


Bryan:

I can understand what you say there from your position---believe me I can. My question to you is, can you understand what I am saying to you about my position with Merion and that we (Merion and us) are more than capable of getting any of these parcels measured completely accurately by apparently the very surveyors who did those metes and bounds in the first place? How about IF, WHEN that is done we try to get what we and Merion and their surveyors are using with metes and bounds to you and then you can see if your measurements and your totals match their measurements and their totals?

Are you cool with that thought? 

When that time comes and assuming yours match theirs completely perhaps then you and us can totally PROVE to the World of GCA geeks and closet measurers all over the earth how right you can be and then ALL OF US can call you "The Immaculate Google Earthing AND Merion Measurer From GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's Discussion Forum."

Don't you think that is an ultra cool thought too Bryan. If we did it the other way around someone might actually accuse you of sort of backing into the correct measurements like some think the essayist is trying to back into the correct architectural history of Merion East. This way you will have the chance of showing everybody how right you can be the first time around with no coaching or secret information.

It will be like a big game show on the Internet:

"BONG---CORRECT ANSWER! Ladies and gentleman we have a WINNER, Bryan Izatt, the IMMULATE GOOGLE EARTHING MEASURER FROM GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's Discussin Forum!!!!    


or


BONG---WRONG ANSWER! Get that Google Earthing GOLFCLUBATLAS.com Discussion Forum fake measurer and shmuck the hell outta here!   

[Mike_Cirba]

Andy,

Can you do it from the back tee as a two-shotter to the middle of the green?

Shivas apparently wants to move the boundary again.   It's not enough for him that they supposedly already had another 127 yards to push the tee back anywhere they wanted to once David's Francis Swap supposedly happened. 

This is silly because nobody knows how that tee was configured back then, or even the dimensions of the teeing ground.   The closest idea we have is from the 1916 US Am program that shows the tee location as back and to the right of the 15th green, and an opening day measurement of 415 from Tillinghast and a 1916 US Am measurement of 433.

We also know Merion owned property back there so how he's placing the tee adjacent to the 15th green (in the middle, per his request) makes no historical sense.

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