[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

What makes you think Francis surveyed the whole thing?

Jim,

Well, Francis himself tell us that he spent many hours out in the field surveying the golf course as part of creating the design, so if the design happened before November 1910 then apparently this is when Francis did all that work, right?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

What makes you think Francis surveyed the whole thing?

Jim,

Well, Francis himself tell us that he spent many hours out in the field surveying the golf course as part of creating the design, so if the design happened before November 1910 then apparently this is when Francis did all that work, right?

No Mike.  He tells us that he spent much time in the field running instruments and such, but doesn't tell us when this happened.  Surely this could have been at any point in the process.

As for what happened at the time of the swap, it is worth noting that he doesnt refer to a plan or lay out plan or topo or blueprint, but simply refers to a "map."  He was looking at a map. 

[Mike_Cirba]

No Mike.  He tells us that he spent much time in the field running instruments and such, but doesn't tell us when this happened.  Surely this could have been at any point in the process.

As for what happened at the time of the swap, it is worth noting that he doesnt refer to a plan or lay out plan or topo or blueprint, but simply refers to a "map."  He was looking at a map. 

David,

Francis tell us he spent much time in the field running instruments as part of the design process.   If the design process happened before November 1910, there would have been his survey in existence.

He said;

“Except for many hours over a drawing board, running instruments in the field and just plain talking, I made but one important contribution to the layout of the course.”

He also seems to tell his story sequentially, describing how they got the first 13 holes in and were struggling to fit the last five when he came up with his idea.

Again, if this is all before the November 1910 Land Plan and the supposed completion of the routing, then Francis had to have done all his surveying by that point to accomplish the routing.

And yes, I'm sure that night he was working with a map of the property as he said, when he had his brainstorm.

I'm quite sure it was a topographical map he created.

Why would he work from the November 1910 Land Plan from Pugh & Hubbard which wasn't even to scale?? 

What map do you think he'd be viewing at that time??

[Rich Goodale]

Before this thread expires, I must reiterate what I said many years before, and has only been confirmed with subsequent random readings of golf course development in the 1890-1920 period, that to "lay out" a course almost certanly meant to "design" it, per todays common parlance.  To the extent that this seemingly endless "argument" rests on other interpretations of the phrase "lay out," I am satsified that it is a non-argument, just a tale told with sound and fury, signifying nothing......

Rich

[Joe Bausch]

Before this thread expires, I must reiterate what I said many years before, and has only been confirmed with subsequent random readings of golf course development in the 1890-1920 period, that to "lay out" a course almost certanly meant to "design" it, per todays common parlance.  To the extent that this seemingly endless "argument" rests on other interpretations of the phrase "lay out," I am satsified that it is a non-argument, just a tale told with sound and fury, signifying nothing......

Rich

Just to dovetail on your comment Rich, I found this article recently, penned by Tillie in the January 14, 1917 edition of the Philadelphia Record. 

It is possible that the writer may be permitted to speak of himself at this time without offense.  A recent ruling of the United States Golf Association apparently has deprived him, together with Walter Travis, of his own amateur standing.  It is a well-known fact that for some years I have practically made golf course construction a profession, and for many more years my articles have appeared in this newspaper and magazines.  Apparently the executive committee of the U.S.G.A. considers me a professional, and I wish to go on record now with the remark that I have absolutely no complaint.

[DMoriarty]

Before this thread expires, I must reiterate what I said many years before, and has only been confirmed with subsequent random readings of golf course development in the 1890-1920 period, that to "lay out" a course almost certanly meant to "design" it, per todays common parlance.  To the extent that this seemingly endless "argument" rests on other interpretations of the phrase "lay out," I am satsified that it is a non-argument, just a tale told with sound and fury, signifying nothing......

Rich

Rather than accept your authority on the issue, I have researched it and found that in the vast majority of cases "to lay out" involved some interaction with the actual ground, whether it be staking out, marking out, or otherwise placing the golf course on the ground.  Surely some designed and laid out a golf course in one step, out in the field, with stakes and such.  But rarely have I seen reference to anyone "laying out a golf course" on paper, as opposed to the ground.  I've seen plenty of those "planning a lay out" or drawing up a "proposed lay out" but the plan was not the layout, it was the layout plan.   In short and generally, while designing and laying out were very much related, one needed to actually be laying out something on the ground for the latter term to apply. 

In fact, there are examples where the course was planned or designed by one party, and then later "laid out" according to that plan or design.   

But perhaps your research is more thorough than mine.  What are the usages to which you refer?

___________________________

Mike,  I've posted what he said numerous times, and I don't recall him saying exactly that.    Do you have facts indicating that he said exactly that, or is it just your interpretation?   

_________________________

Joe Bausch, 

I recall at one point you set out to pull together a number of articles using the phrase "lay out" or "to lay out" or its variations.  I don't recall you ever posting the results or conclusions?   How'd that study go?

Thanks.

[Bryan Izatt]

...................

Shivas,

The hole was listed as 433 yards.

In an age of hickory and gutta percha, how many club players could carry their second shot over 400 yards.

Much of the yardage players of that era gained was due to limited irrigation and the run of the ball.

Did you read this descrption of the 16th prior to posting and calling the fact that it's a strategic hole with TWO options for the approach shot "goofy" and "nonsense"??

Mike,

The picture shows it as a 433 yard Par 5.  Presumably from the back of the tees.  Would the members have not played it up a bit?  And, the 433 yards is the yardage going around with the three shot option.  The two shot option is around 400 yards to the middle of the green (380 yards to the front edge) with the tee shot downhill.  Pretty inviting, even in the hickory day, for the members to have a go at it on a par 5.  Also the text says it was OB left on the second shot, however the picture doesn't show that.  And, the 17th is over there, so do you suppose they had an internal OB down in the quarry between the two holes?  Or, the article misstates the point.

[Rich Goodale]

Before this thread expires, I must reiterate what I said many years before, and has only been confirmed with subsequent random readings of golf course development in the 1890-1920 period, that to "lay out" a course almost certanly meant to "design" it, per todays common parlance.  To the extent that this seemingly endless "argument" rests on other interpretations of the phrase "lay out," I am satsified that it is a non-argument, just a tale told with sound and fury, signifying nothing......

Rich

Rather than accept your authority on the issue, I have researched it and found that in the vast majority of cases "to lay out" involved some interaction with the actual ground, whether it be staking out, marking out, or otherwise placing the golf course on the ground.  Surely some designed and laid out a golf course in one step, out in the field, with stakes and such.  But rarely have I seen reference to anyone "laying out a golf course" on paper, as opposed to the ground.  I've seen plenty of those "planning a lay out" or drawing up a "proposed lay out" but the plan was not the layout, it was the layout plan.   In short and generally, while designing and laying out were very much related, one needed to actually be laying out something on the ground for the latter term to apply. 

In fact, there are examples where the course was planned or designed by one party, and then later "laid out" according to that plan or design.   

But perhaps your research is more thorough than mine.  What are the usages to which you refer?

___________________________

Mike,  I've posted what he said numerous times, and I don't recall him saying exactly that.    Do you have facts indicating that he said exactly that, or is it just your interpretation?   

_________________________

Joe Bausch, 

I recall at one point you set out to pull together a number of articles using the phrase "lay out" or "to lay out" or its variations.  I don't recall you ever posting the results or conclusions?   How'd that study go?

Thanks.

Dave

I haven't "researched" that particular question, nor have I ever purported to, not do I intend to.  All I have said and will continue to say until proved otherwise is that "laid out" seems to mean "designed" in just about all the contemporaneous references I have seen.  Have you seen otherwise?  If so, tell us the facts you have uncovered--any or all, at your discretion.

Rich

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Was it deemed necessary to provide an alternate route around the quarry that significantly widened the area needed for the 16th hole?

If so, isn't that the germane point?

How do you know they measured around the quarry?  Todays hole measures 430 to the center of the green on a straight line.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

By the way, it looks in that drawing as though the OB left only extended down the length of the haverford college boundary.

[Joe Bausch]

I never completed my "laying out"/"laid out" study.   

But here is another instance of where those terms are used, this from the Oct 23, 1914 issue of the Evening Public Ledger.

In the world of golf there is no more well-known figure than C. B. MacDonald as a constructor of courses.  MacDonald had laid out a great many courses on the other side, and on this side of the water is best known by his work on the National Golf Links, Long Island.  Ben Sayres, when here, said the National was the best course in America, but Peter W. Lees, the noted Scotch greenkeeper, is of the opinion that it is the best course in the world.  Lees is at present located at the new Long Beach course, and the laying out of the course is in charge of MacDonald.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

In all honesty, in all my research of that time period, I can't think of a single case of the hundreds I've seen where someone credited with "laying out" a golf course did not also mean they designed it.

Actually, as I'm typing, I can think of one single case, and in that one I do think the writer thought the person designed it, but didn't.

It's from an Iowa newspaper and it's the story of Opening Day at Merion, and the writer mentions that the course was "laid out" by Fred Pickering, and that it's his finest work to date.   It looked to me to be a copped synopsis of the Alex Findlay article, but I do recall reading that one.

Can you provide a number of examples of what you're referring to?

In the "vast majority" of the cases you've researched, how do you know that the course was never "laid out" on paper, either first or while designing on the ground?   How would you know this?   How many of these early courses still have their original paper records?

I've seen literally hundreds where "layed out" or "laid out" and "designed" are used synoymously and I know Joe Bausch has, as well.

i also have Prosper Sennatt's book from 1900 and even back then they referred to the architect as "Course Laid Out by"...

[Jeff_Brauer]

I find it ironic that this battle erupted on Memorial Day, when we celebrate all those who died for our right to, among other things, free speech.  I wonder how those soldiers would say we are using our hard earned freedoms on this thread?  Were their deaths in vain?  Is giving MacDonald say, 10% more credit that big a whoop for the Philly boys?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

It's not an issue of giving Macdonald credit for helping.   I've acknowledged his contributions and so have others and so has the club for decades.

It's an issue of depriving Hugh Wilson of authorship, which he's clearly earned, and that's what David's paper contends.

Hugh Wilson was too much of a novice to have done what he did....isn't that what it says?

[DMoriarty]

I've seen literally hundreds where layed out and designed are synoymous and I know Joe Bausch has, as well.

Literally hundreds?  I'd be curious to see those.  

But perhaps first we need to be clear on what we are talking about.

Take Joe's example above, in the last line "and the laying out of the course is in [the] charge of MacDonald."

Now surely the course had already been planned at this point, hadn't it? At least on paper?  After all, Leeds was already there.  Yet "the laying out" seems to be ongoing?    Why is that?  

If the course had already been planned, then in your mind the course had already been laid out, whether or not it was actually yet placed on the ground?   Is this correct?  

And when HH Barker did his "proposed lay out" on paper, he should have dropped the "proposed" modifier, because in your mind he already laid out the course?  

"H.H. Barker laid out Merion in June 1910."  Perhaps that will be section heading in my next draft.

[Andy Hughes]

I never completed my "laying out"/"laid out" study.   

But here is another instance of where those terms are used, this from the Oct 23, 1914 issue of the Evening Public Ledger.

In the world of golf there is no more well-known figure than C. B. MacDonald as a constructor of courses.  MacDonald had laid out a great many courses on the other side, and on this side of the water is best known by his work on the National Golf Links, Long Island.  Ben Sayres, when here, said the National was the best course in America, but Peter W. Lees, the noted Scotch greenkeeper, is of the opinion that it is the best course in the world.  Lees is at present located at the new Long Beach course, and the laying out of the course is in charge of MacDonald.

In the world of golf there is no more well-known figure than C. B. MacDonald as a constructor of courses.  MacDonald had laid out a great many courses on the other side, and on this side of the water is best known by his work on the National Golf Links, Long Island.  Ben Sayres, when here, said the National was the best course in America, but Peter W. Lees, the noted Scotch greenkeeper, is of the opinion that it is the best course in the world.  Lees is at present located at the new Long Beach course, and the laying out of the course is in charge of MacDonald.

McDonald "laid out a great many courses on the other side, and on this side of the water is best known by his work on the National Golf Links, Long Island."? 
A great many'?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

We've truly come full circle to "laying out" and the Old Oxford Dictionary definition that only you've discovered..

Please provide simply 5 examples of contemporaneous accounts of early courses that were "laid out" by men who weren't the designer?

If you done exhaustive reserch, please let's see a handful of examples.

You're the one who is telling us that "is" doesn't mean "is", so please...justify it.

If we can't even define agreement on basic language, is it any wonder we're not having a productive discussion?

What about the way Richard Francis describes it when he talks about his "contribution to the layout".   

Is he talking construction or design??

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Was it deemed necessary to provide an alternate route around the quarry that significantly widened the area needed for the 16th hole?  It was built at some point so I guess it was deemed necessary

If so, isn't that the germane point?

How do you know they measured around the quarry?  Today's hole measures 430 to the center of the green on a straight line.  It's 433 from the very back edge of the tee to the middle of the green for the two shot option. I know they measured it back then using the three shot option, and didn't have the tee back at the back, because the picture also approximates the 250 yard drive.  If  they were measuring from where the back of the tees are today, the 250 yard mark would have been placed much further back towards the tee.

Bryan,

By the way, it looks in that drawing as though the OB left only extended down the length of the haverford college boundary. Yes, that's what I see.  The article says it's OB left on the approach shot over the quarry.  I think the article is misstated on that point. A little writer's hyperbole to go with the mocking eyes of stone.

A quick question on the narrow strip up by College.  Who owns the roads in PA: the municipality? the county? the State? or the private land owners?  Who would have owned Golf House Road when it was built?  Is it possible that the strip was for private access?  Or an easement for power, gas, telephone?

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

I think you're mistaken.

That drawing of 16 is not meant to be to scale and every single drawing has the routes dotted-lined from the front of the tee.

Who even knows how big or long any of the original tees were?   Does anyone recall mention of multiple tees?  I don't.

[Mike_Cirba]

And Bryan, please forgive the double posts but isn't the real question whether they felt they needed to design and construct an alternate fairway around the quarry on 16?

After all, we're talking design and space considerations, right?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

Is there something wrong with making sure we are on the same page before we start in on the examples?  After all we have two examples right in front of us.  Joe's example and HH Barker at Merion.   So let's start there, no use going further if we cannot agree on these.

1.  Did HH Barker "lay out" Merion in June 1910?

If the Lido was already planned on paper then by your theory it had already been laid out even before they touched the ground.  So then what the heck did was C.B. Macdonald think he was doing at this point?

_____________

Bryan,  I believe that the hole was mistakenly listed as a par 5, although I am sure it felt that way to some of the members.   I believe it was a par 4, so they would have measured straight to the green.  

But you are correct that your straight to the green measure was significantly shorter than 433 yards.    Remember Merion measured along the ground, and whether for this reason or others, their measures are way off on some of these holes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

It's not an issue of giving Macdonald credit for helping.   I've acknowledged his contributions and so have others and so has the club for decades.

It's an issue of depriving Hugh Wilson of authorship, which he's clearly earned, and that's what David's paper contends.

Hugh Wilson was too much of a novice to have done what he did....isn't that what it says?

Mike,

I have always said that since there is no "architectural credit review board" its up to Merion to credit as they see fit.  At the same time, no one has the right to deny anyone seeking the truth or details of history, which is what TePaul's insults seemingly were designed to do. (You fare a little better in these eyes)  In the end, its just not that important AND it will always be a matter of opinion anyway. You guys seem to think David has no right to question the Wilson credit, but what gives you the right to assign it all to Wilson?  Nada, IMHO, even though I understand some courses inspire passion in people. 

For most of us who got interested in this to some level, my belief is that its not and never has been black and white as the principals here make it.  Most amateur designs had professional help in the background. (from Pine Valley right on up to Trump National)  The argument here has gone to absolutes of either/or CBM or Wilson.  It seems you guys are against any form of revision based on newly uncovered documents, even to the point that if someone discovers some interim letters between Wilson and CBM that will start the battle all over again - and even harder.

If David had chosen a slightly less black and white title or theory, i.e., that the contacted CMB more often than previously thought, would that have lessened the accomplishment of the Merion committee?  Would the name calling ensued?  Or, would Wayne and TePaul then been searching the records to see if there were any such letters mailed, instead of arguing how to measure a triangle? 

The irony is that he seemed modest enough to have deflected credit to a large degree, and 98 years later, you and TePaul are staunchly defending him getting all the credit. 
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

Again, it's not a question of Wilson getting "all the credit".

Its a question of him being denied ALL of the original routing and hole design credit.

That's not grey;  that's the thrust and aim of David's essay and its worth defending.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

The 16th didn't evolve to have an alternate fairway; it was built that way and that's the original yardage as well.

The rest here we're just repeating ourselves.

Believe what you wish.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

They wouldn't have been land locked...there was a train station down by todays 12 green and Ardmore Ave split the course in half.

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