[Bryan Izatt]

More fun and games with the eastern boundary.  The 1913 RR PDF map from the Lower Merion Historical Society seems to be a high quality undistorted image to use in assessing where the boundary was.  I'm still confused by Tom's statement that it's 20 yards east of the 16th tee, and Mike's statement that it's under the trees.  Which one is right, or are they both right?

So, here's the 1913 RR map with the scale transposed to the Haverford College property.  I added a few more 100 foot marks in red.  To the best of my measuring ability it is just under 1100 (1093 if you want to get silly) feet from the edge of Haverford Road to the Haverford College/Marion property line.  I superimposed the Google Earth map with a ruler measuring 1093 feet from the road to the supposed boundary. As you can see it is 20 yards or so east from the current 16th tee.  So maybe this is where Tom paced it off.  Perhaps Mike is right too, if he meant under the trees near the beginning of the 16th fairway. 

Either or both can confirm or deny if they wish.  Politely, I hope.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Now, some more overlay fun.  The one below has the 1910 and the 1913 maps overlaid on the current Google Earth aerial.  I've highlighted the roads - the "approximate one from 1910 in red and the as-built (?) one from 1913 in blue.  As David has said, the maps, particularly the 1910 one are somewhat distorted and it's hard to match them to the current layout.  Having said that, Llewellyn Road on the 1913 map, matches almost exactly to the current road.  The Haverford College boundary does not exactly match where the property line was, if my previous post is correct.  But, other matching points I used do fit.

David,

A question for you.  We agree that the triangle existed on the 1910 map and was put there by the surveyors at the request of someone(s) that owned, or planned to own,the property for the Merion course? If it was there because the Francis land swap was already in the minds of those that instructed the surveyors to draw the map, why does it look like the other land to be swapped to the HDC, in return, down near the clubhouse between the blue and red roads, isn't also reflected in the 1910 map? The two roads are significantly different enough that it is hard to think that the difference is made up by the "approximate" label on the 1910 map.  Notwithstanding your mutual feud with Tom and Mike, is it possible, in your mind, that Francis mispoke or was misquoted regarding the 130 x 190 yard piece of property?

[TEPaul]

"is it possible, in your mind, that Francis mispoke or was misquoted regarding the 130 x 190 yard piece of property?"


Bryan:

Do you really expect him to admit that at this point? And don't you think asking why Thompson's resolution mentioned the land was ALREADY PURCHASED might be a bit more appropriate regarding the timing of the Francis land swap? Do you realize when Lloyd purchased that land? Do you understand the significance of what THAT means?

[JESII]

We agree that the triangle existed on the 1910 map and was put there by the surveyors at the request of someone(s) that owned, or planned to own,the property for the Merion course? If it was there because the Francis land swap was already in the minds of those that instructed the surveyors to draw the map, why does it look like the other land to be swapped to the HDC, in return, down near the clubhouse between the blue and red roads, isn't also reflected in the 1910 map? The two roads are significantly different enough that it is hard to think that the difference is made up by the "approximate" label on the 1910 map. 

Bryan,

That is the key point in all of this to me...I was struggling with the logic of why that triangle would even be there on the 1910 plan/proposal and couldn't quite buy any of the explanations I heard but your question there hadn't even occurred to me.

If they had already swapped the "land that didn't fit in with any golf plan..." for the triangle it surely would have been reflected on the 1910 Land Plan.

My mind can rest now...



Question fabout the minutes / board meetings...was the April 19th meeting an annual meeting or monthly? Some clubs require major decisions to be made by member vote which might imply this Thompson resolution wouldn't have happened earlier than April because the membership had not convened in that period. If it was simply a regular monthly board meeting that's clearly a different matter.

[DMoriarty]

Bryan,

Is it possible that Francis mispoke or was misquoted?  Sure it is possible.  But it is not just the dimensions of the swapped property.  We'd have to throw out the entire Francis statement to make TEPaul's theory work.

The entire point of the Francis statement is that they could not fit the final five holes onto the course, and that he swapped for land and solved this problem.   If the 1910 plan accurately depicts the state of the land BEFORE the swap, then he would have had no such problem.  The holes fit.  

TEPaul claims that the 1910 plan accurately reflects the land before the swap, but it is easy to fit the holes on this plan.  So if TEPaul is correct, then the entire Francis Story must be discarded.   While TEPaul and Mike are willing to discard eye witness accounts at their pleasure, I am not.


"If it was there because the Francis land swap was already in the minds of those that instructed the surveyors to draw the map, why does it look like the other land to be swapped to the HDC, in return, down near the clubhouse between the blue and red roads, isn't also reflected in the 1910 map?"


I cannot get into the heads of the surveyors or those instructing them, but it looks to me like they anticipated a swap of a longer, shallower, swath of land.  Could be that they were told "you need to change the road, we need about 100 yards or so next to the bottom of the Haverford land, and take it  out of somewhere further down the road . . ."   Remember the road was marked APPROXIMATE LOCATION, so the surveyors probably didn't know EXACTLY where it would go.   But your question raises another point  . . .

TEPaul claims that the 1910 map perfectly shows the 117 acre parcel that Haverford would purchase.  But this too is wrong.  The Golf Course land pictured is more than 117 acres, for the very reason you provide above;  there is too much golf course land across from the clubhouse.  

The rest of the border looks to be about accurate, and the total purchased was 117 acres, same as in the 1910 plan.  So we can net out the differences between the acreage created by the APPROXIMATE road with the acreage created by the final road.   Comparing the two, the APPROXIMATE road creates too much land.

_______________________________________________________________________

Shivas, what your saying could be true, but there is another issue with TEPaul's interpretation.

Are you too curious with what comes after "adjoining . . .."

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

Give me what I need to vet your attacks, claims, and theories and I will tell you what is wrong with your reading of the minutes regarding the land swap.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Does the fact that Francis hopped on a bike at midnight and rushed over to discuss with Lloyd seem to you indicative of working with land they hadn't purchased yet and wouldn't start working on for six or so months or does it sound much more urgent?

If as Francis said, they already had the first 13 holes locatted and were simply trying to fit the final five and this all happened before Nov 1910, then why would the same Rich Francis join a committee and spend most of the winter and early spring creating "many" layouts and then 5 different ones after the NGLA visit into early April when MAcdonald visited on the 6th of that month.

Wouldn't Mac's impending visit and trying to finalize thinga before his arrival been a much more plausible reason for urgency?

Or how about just the impending spring season and the need to get moving on construction??

[DMoriarty]

Shivas,

The version you outline also would explain why Cuyler wrote in December that, while the course had been tentatively planned, the borders of the course had not yet been made definite.

And the weather in July was much more conducive to midnight bike rides than in March. 

But again, there is another large problem with TEPaul's interpretation that will likely render this line of reasoning moot.

Mike Cirba's logic applies equally as well (or better) if the pending visit was CBM's first, not second.

[JESII]

Does anyone know if the Thompson resolution was at a monthly board meeting or an annual meeting of the membership?

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

That is not what Cuyler wrote. 

Let's hear the other big hole in Tom's story instead of putting lots of words in Cuyler's mouth he never said.

[Mike_Cirba]

David, 

So now you are placing the design of .Merion out before June 1910 before Macdonald even saw the property?

Is there any length you won't go to in trying to diss Hugh Wilson?

You've now just thrown Macdonald under the bus as discarded him as the architect...perhaps we need to start calling it a LLoyd/Francis design?

[DMoriarty]

Jim

TEPaul and Mike should know.  Why don't you ask them what comes after "adjoining .... ?"

Mike,  as i understand it, that is what Cuyler wrote.   And you have no basis to disagree.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul claims that the 1910 map perfectly shows the 117 acre parcel that Haverford would purchase.  But this too is wrong.  The Golf Course land pictured is more than 117 acres, for the very reason you provide above;  there is too much golf course land across from the clubhouse."



The above is a completely fallacious statement!

1. In president Evans' statement to the board he mentioned the 117 acres for a golf course had been negotiated by Connell and Lloyd.
2. Nickolson of HDC writes a letter to Evans making an offer of the 117 acres for $85,000.
3. After approval by the board Evans writes Nickolson back agreeing to his offer on behalf of MCC. This was not a option between HDC and MCC as your essay contends (the only options were between HDC and a few landowners), it was merely an agreement in principle provided MCC agree to create a golf course. Evan says to Nickolson MCC first needs to set up and register a corporation (The MCC Golf Association Co) and then they will proceed to lay off (he actually said that) a golf course on the 117 acres of land.
4. In Lloyd's circular to the membership on Nov. 15, 1910 explaining the course and the development (HDC) to the west and north he also references the 117 acres had been secured for a golf course and he also refernces in the same circular that the 117 acres for THE GOLF COURE is depicted in green on the Nov. 15, 1910 land plan.    


So you are absolutely wrong. The area in green (PROPOSED GOLF COURSE) on the Nov. 15, 1910 land plan is 117 acres!




"The rest of the border looks to be about accurate, and the total purchased was 117 acres, same as in the 1910 plan.  So we can net out the differences between the acreage created by the APPROXIMATE road with the acreage created by the final road.   Comparing the two, the APPROXIMATE road creates too much land."



Wrong again!

1. The total purchased by Rothwell from HDC on Dec. 16, 1910 was 161 acres.
2. The total purchased by Horatio Gates Lloyd et ux from Rothwell three days later on Dec. 19, 1910 was 161 acres.



Your essay contends HDC sold the land to MCC in the beginning of Jan. 1911. Wrong again. Lloyd et ux NOT MCC would BUY the land and hold the land from Dec. 19, 1910 until July, 1911 at which point he would transfer it back to Rothwell who would immediately transfer it to the MCC Golf Association Co.  Your essay reflects none of this seemingly important and significant transfer arrangement that appears to have been done so Lloyd could move certain boundary lines for the proposed 117 acre coursearound at will with the contiguous 221 acres of the HDC land. Apparently you never realized any of that. Lloyd on the advice of Cuylers had taken 161 acres into his own name which included the exact dimensions of the 117 acres for the golf course for the express purpose of being able to move boundaries lines around at will with HDC if needed. It was needed and he did so. Thompson's 4/19/11 board resolution reflected that when it referenced "land already purchased exchanged for land adjoining."


Furthermore, people like Lloyd were high powered businessmen and not dumb about financial negotiations. If he had been negotiating with Connell for the best price he could get from HDC for 117 acres for MCC (which happened to be half the per acre price HDC agreed to pay for the total 338 acres) do you really think he would be out there with Francis visibly creating a routing and design plan with Macdonald and/or Barker? 

Not to mention the Dallas estate would not be agreed upon for some time. The MCC records actually indicate MCC felt they should not appear too aggressive for fear of kiting the purchase price of the Dallas estate or perhaps other land.

[Adam_Messix]

Shivas--

I understand what you are saying about the Boards of Clubs ratifying decisions after the fact.  I'm not sure if it would apply in this situation.  Being as this is a capital transaction involving a change in the club's property ownership, it would be dangerous for a Board to ratify the transaction after the fact.  Almost all of the club By-laws that I've seen have specific provisions for how this occurs and none of them would have the ratification to occur after the fact. 

[TEPaul]

AdamM:

A sensible and commonsensical post there. It should be mentioned that "The Missing Faces of Merion" essay left out one extremely important potential factor to the meaning of ALL THIS including perhaps something like the Thompson resolution wording "land already purchased." That is the essayist was never aware that Lloyd purchased the land not MCC. He may've first become aware of this in the last week or so. In this case MCC and Thompson's resolution was probably reflecting the fact that within app. three months the land and its altered boundaries would be going to the corporation they had set up to buy the land and lease it to MCC. Lloyd, by the way, was the president of the MCC Golf Association Company and that may have something to do with the transfer use of Rothwell!

It may be a complete coincidence of names but it would not totally surprise me if Rothwell was related to Wilson.

[TEPaul]

"Does anyone know if the Thompson resolution was at a monthly board meeting or an annual meeting of the membership?"

Sully:

Not an annual meeting. Those were in the beginning of Dec.

[TEPaul]

"Then Lloyd would have bought the land, officially, in December.  And then in April, when this resolution was passed, and the land was land ALREADY PURCHASED, the Thompson resolution would be a ratification of a swap vis-a-vis a prior plan, for example because a prior resolution approved the purchase of land that didn't include the triangle."


Shivas:

Maybe that looks sort of logical to you somehow but it doesn't make much sense in this case. First of all, why would MCC's board care about some land adjustment that had been agreed on and done some months BEFORE they had one of their members purchase it for them and hold it in his own name for seven months during which they routed, designed and began to build a course? Secondly, you mention some PRIOR RESOLUTION. What prior resolution do you think MCC made? What do you guys do, just pull this stuff completely out of thin air just to make a point? When you track this do what we do----eg try to track it along with what we actually know MCC did along the entire way.   

[TEPaul]

"David,
That is not what Cuyler wrote."



MikeC:

No kidding. That little fella sure can just dream stuff up can't he? 

The doubly funny thing is he's DEMANDED about twenty times on this thread already that I tell him what Cuylers really said but in the meantime he's telling all of us what Cuylers said!!   

That's some need trick and UBER speciousness, wouldn't you say?

[TEPaul]

"Tom, maybe I'm a little slow to the take today, but that statement about the "land already purchased" in April 1911 couldn't have been land already purchased by MCC because it wasn't purchased by MCC until July 1911, right?  So what it really meant was "land already purchased by Lloyd in anticipation of transfer to the club down the road" or something to that effect, right?"


Uh, YEAH, Shiv! And you're right, you are a little slow on the take today. You're not billing us by the hour here, are you? 

[TEPaul]

"Well, I'm not slow enought to fail to realize that you ignored my question .... Jeez, man, that's a serious question I asked.  It seems fairly obvious to me that everybody in that room would have known that the "land already purchased" was the land that Lloyd already purchased, but I just want to be sure before I even start thinking about whether that would imply when the land swap idea happened."


Shiv:

I know it is a serious question on your part and I'm sorry I didn't answer the whole thing immediately. But you have to appreciate that to really understand the complete answer to a question of that kind there is a pretty huge backstory that needs to be explained too. Don't get me wrong, I am delighted you're on here now asking questions and trying to get up to speed but you need to appreciate that some of us here who have taken years to get where we are understanding a tapestry as complex as this one sometimes feel a little overwhelmed when we are asked to explain these things over and over as people come on and ask. But I'm glad they do and I'm glad they are. Maybe we could do the entire backstory faster and better if we talked on the phone. I'm a fast typer but it wears me out sometimes. With 35,000 posts and climbing it's amazing I've got any fingers left. 


Your post #277 is an intereting one but it looks like your instincts in that vein made you sort of double up on what really did happen, if you catch my drift.

[DMoriarty]

This thread is yet another example of why we cannot rely on these guys decide the history of Merion (or anywhere else) for us.  As usual, if they cannot make it fit with their story, then it is facts be damned.  If this wasn't the case, they'd let the facts speak for themselves, instead of trying to force feed us their interpretations of a few select facts that they think they can twist to fit their argument. 

But even when they do this it is facts be damned!

So you are absolutely wrong. The area in green (PROPOSED GOLF COURSE) on the Nov. 15, 1910 land plan is 117 acres!

No Tom.   I don't just make these things up.  The acreage shown as the golf course is substantially larger than the 117 acres it is supposed to be.   You can see this from even looking at Bryan's overlay.   Plus, I've measured it.   But why don't you go out and pace off the metes and bounds and calculate it yourself? 

For anyone confused:

1.  The area Merion ultimately purchased was 117 yards.   
2.  TEPaul claims that the area marked "golf course" on the 1910 plan was 117 yards.
3.  If the Francis Swap occurred AFTER the Plan was created, then any swap was quid pro quo.  Equal Acreage for Equal Acreage.   If MCC lost acreage by the 14th tee, then they had to pick up land somewhere else. 
4.  Conservatively, between the 1910 plan and the actual purchase, MCC would have lost around 7.5 acres of land along Golf House Road across from the clubhouse.  Plus the lost the small triangle behind the 16th tee. 
5.  According to TEPaul an Mike, they gained what? An acre or less?   

Where did MCC pick up the other 6 acres?     Nowhere. The road was in its APPROXIMATE LOCATION. 

Your essay contends HDC sold the land to MCC in the beginning of Jan. 1911. Wrong again. Lloyd et ux NOT MCC would BUY the land and hold the land from Dec. 19, 1910 until July, 1911 at which point he would transfer it back to Rothwell who would immediately transfer it to the MCC Golf Association Co.  Your essay reflects none of this seemingly important and significant transfer arrangement that appears to have been done so Lloyd could move certain boundary lines for the proposed 117 acre coursearound at will with the contiguous 221 acres of the HDC land. Apparently you never realized any of that. Lloyd on the advice of Cuylers had taken 161 acres into his own name which included the exact dimensions of the 117 acres for the golf course for the express purpose of being able to move boundaries lines around at will with HDC if needed. It was needed and he did so. Thompson's 4/19/11 board resolution reflected that when it referenced "land already purchased exchanged for land adjoining."

My essay lists what was in the papers and what Merion announced to its membership.   Wayne knows damn well that I knew when the actual transfer of title to MCC took place.   He asked me point blank and I told him.  In writing.

How about my offer Tom?    Give me what I need to vet your position and I will explain the real problem with your interpretation of the minutes about the land swap.    I'll even go first.  Provided you agree.

You've got nothing to lose, given that you are so sure you have it all correct, why not?

Or do you actually know you that you are probably wrong . . . are just trying to sell us another pile of manure as fact?   

[DMoriarty]

In other words Shivas, he'll be glad to try and browbeat you over the phone, but he doesn't want to provide the information here, because he knows I will see right through it.   I'd take that as an insult to your intelligence if I were you. 

TEPaul tired of typing.   NOW THAT IS FUNNY.

[DMoriarty]

David, 

So now you are placing the design of .Merion out before June 1910 before Macdonald even saw the property?

Is there any length you won't go to in trying to diss Hugh Wilson?

You've now just thrown Macdonald under the bus as discarded him as the architect...perhaps we need to start calling it a LLoyd/Francis design?

Mike Cirba, 

This post exemplifies why you have no business in this conversation.  I don't know if it is an emotional block or an intellectual block or both, but even when you are not flying off the handle for you it all boils down to who is being dissed and/or thrown under the bus, and everything you read and think is apparently based on that single consideration.     For me it is about figuring out what happened.   I go where the facts lead us.   You, on the other hand, try to take the facts to where you have remained are firmly planted since this conversation began.   

And Mike, if you were capable of actually understanding my essay, you would be aware that I already did note that Lloyd and Francis were involved in routing the course. 

[TEPaul]

“My essay lists what was in the papers and what Merion announced to its membership.   Wayne knows damn well that I knew when the actual transfer of title to MCC took place.   He asked me point blank and I told him.  In writing.”


Is that right? You relied on what was in the papers, huh? That was your first mistake. Your second mistake was trying to write an essay like that without any contact with the club itself. I’ve told you that for what seems like years now. Anyone I’ve ever heard of who writes an informative and accurate piece on a club or its course has had intimate contact with the club itself. But you thought you’d just try to do it differently, right, without any contact at all? Well, it showed from the first day that essay went on this website and it shows even clearer now after we’ve researched and analyzed what you should have BEFORE you wrote that essay. It looks like you’ve been trying to catch up for a year now and you still have no contact with the club and at this point I doubt you ever would or even could.

If you knew H. Gates Lloyd bought the property on Dec. 19, 1910 instead of MCC why didn’t you say so in your essay? Why did you say the papers said in January, 1911 MCC had bought it if you knew Lloyd did? MCC didn’t buy it, Lloyd did and you never knew that until we told you. Did the papers say anything about T. DeWitt Cuylers and the fact that he mentioned to the president that Lloyd should buy it so he could move boundary lines around at will? Of course not; not an unimportant issue if the subject is something like Francis’s land swap and when it happened and why

T. DeWitt Cuylers. You’d never even heard of him either, nor frankly had we until about this time last year. You say you also knew there were MCC meeting minutes still over at MCC that never made it to Merion G.C for the last century?? That’s very interesting since even Merion didn’t know that until last year, so how in the world could you have? Did you know that through some kind of mental telepathy, or would that claim just be another good old fashioned “you know what” on your part? Clearly the latter!

The extent of the factual mistakes and consequential misinterpretations resulting in fallacious assumptions, premises and contentions in your essay is absolutely staggering. We've proven a number of them to be and some of the most important ones. The fact you can't admit it does not make any of them any less fallacious, that's for sure.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

That last paragraph of yours in that last post; I have all of it just like that right here. But rather than me going through it all again I'll see if I can find the posts on this thread where I listed it.

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