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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 11:56:16 PM »

T. DeWitt Cuylers Dec. 21 1910 letter could pretty much seal this whole deal but Moriarty ain't gettin' that from me if he's going to continue on the way he's going on these threads.   

It is not yours to give or withhold Tom.  It is MCC's.   What kind of game are you playing now?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2009, 12:00:16 AM »
"David was going on and on about how he was confused by the whole thing and how he didn't understand what you were saying"


Michael:

That's right---every time he sees we've completely destroyed some of the premises and contentions in his revisionsit essay he says he's confused by the whole thing and doesn't understand what we are saying. If he can't seem to admit to the obvious, which seems pretty obvious for the last few years, what else do you expect of him?  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2009, 12:08:33 AM »
David,

I've addressed your question previously.   I certainly would never presume to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't produce in a public forum about their own club or a club they have close connections to.

I've been straightforward and upfront about what I've personally seen, and what I've discovered myself, or that Joe has uncovered.  

I also have no reason to believe that anyone else is being inconsistent or untruthful with the evidence.  

I also think people are simply asking for you to back down somewhat from your inflammatory and rigid positions and at least show some open-mindedness with the evidence to date before they are willing to proceed with disclosing additional information when each prior piece that has surfaced seems only to be generally treated with disdain, disbelief, dismissal, and disrepect.






TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2009, 12:13:40 AM »
"It is not yours to give or withhold Tom.  It is MCC's.   What kind of game are you playing now?"


No game at all. If you want the information from me you're going to have to deal with me. But if you don't want to deal with me you could always try to get it yourself from MCC! ;) Apparently that didn't work for you in the past, did it? I wonder why that was?  

Look, Moriarty, I'm pretty sure you ain't dumb and you understand perfectly well that if you stop playing these ridiculous games you have been with us and the truth comes out, your entire essay will go down in flames with everyone on here who's even capable of a modicum of reading re; Merion East.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 12:15:31 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2009, 12:23:14 AM »
"It is not yours to give or withhold Tom.  It is MCC's.   What kind of game are you playing now?"


No game at all. If you want the information from me you're going to have to deal with me. But if you don't want to deal with me you could always try to get it yourself from MCC! ;) Apparently that didn't work for you in the past, did it? I wonder why that was?  

Look, Moriarty, I'm pretty sure you ain't dumb and you understand perfectly well that if you stop playing these ridiculous games you have been with us and the truth comes out, your entire essay will go down in flames with everyone on here who's even capable of a modicum of reading re; Merion East.

No games Tom Paul. 

Let's have the facts.   No ultimatums, no unspecified demands.  No phony excuses about the clubs.   The FACTS.   I am waiting.  Shoot me down.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2009, 12:25:36 AM »
Tom,

I'm really hopeful that one DSchmidt is critically reading this thread and mercifully and sensibly throws in a towel from that corner.

This has really been a good educational exercise in some ways, and we have honestly learned new and relevant information, but it's also been a colossal, collective waste of time and energies in most others..

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2009, 12:36:59 AM »
Mike I've been reading your posts and they just baffle me.    What I am asking for is a critical discussion.  Nothing more.   

For my part, I put out my analysis, tried to honestly identify what was speculation and what wasn't, handed over all my sources, even did my best to help my harshest critics uncover everything they could, whether it helped me or hurt me.   I've tried to address all reasonable questions and comments, many many times over, adjusted my positions where the facts so dictate, and likewise defended my position when justified.

Is it too much to ask to verify the "facts" and claims that supposedly undermine my theories?   Do you really think I ought to just say, well if TEPaul and Wayne say so then it must be true?

Seriously, what is it that you think I should be doing here?

What hoops haven't I already jumped through that you think I should?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 12:40:09 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2009, 07:40:49 AM »
Timelines are indeed valuable things when trying to reconstruct events...

When we last left off some were requesting to see an "alternative" timeline related to Merion, and while I have neither the expertise and internal knowledge of either Tom Paul or Wayne Morrison, I do wish to put my thoughts together in what I hope will be a constructive manner towards a greater overall understanding for all of us.



Mike,

Thanks for the timeline. The first 5-10 post of this thread pretty much cleared up what I wanted to know.

At this point in these threads it seems to be a case of David provoking the two of you, and the two of you responding. It appears that David enjoys provoking and that you two are responding out of passion for the History of Merion. I probably have 5 or 6 good friends at Merion and I doubt any of them really care about the "open items" that David is provoking you and Tom about. I recognize that you will probably not heed my advice, but I would suggest that you submit the top 5-10 post of this thread to Ran and Ben in a "In My Opinion" piece posted next to the Moriarity piece and be satisfied that the fairly intelligent readers of GCA can figure out what is what.

I am sure this will pop back up in 2013, but for now I am personally done with the Merion threads and again I thank you for your effort here.

Quote
Remember that, far from being stress-reducing, it's stress-producing and a real drag to be around someone who is always irritated at something you're doing and always picking a fight over some stupid thing. Why would you even want to be around someone who is always a second away from starting a fight? It's no fun, and it's incredibly stressful.
Richard Carlson


TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2009, 07:45:34 AM »
David:

I'm sorry you consider this to be 'games.'



We here in Philadelphia don't. But in this great big new Internet world I guess some have pretty unique opinions on some things. If you're confused by and can't understand what I've had to say about the events of 1910 and 1911 at Merion, there's no chance you could ever understand what the likes of Lesley, Lloyd, Evans, Cuyler, H. Wilson, Francis, Thompson, A. Wilson et al of Merion back then had to say about it.

You've said from time to time through all this that you just wanted to get an education on the creation of the great Merion East. I'm sorry you feel like you didn't get that education. You have said from time to time through all this you are just trying to put together the pieces of a puzzle. Unfortunately for you, I guess, noone here and noone who really knows the history of Merion has ever considered that there ever was a puzzle about its creation and who did it.

I suggest what we do next is put NGLA through this same kind of six year long catechism Merion has been put through to determine if perhaps there is some kind of puzzle pieces there as well to be put together somehow that might show us all more clearly who was responsible for all the architectural details and concepts of all the holes of that golf course.

On the other hand, if you think "C.B. Macdonald was in the main responsible for it" I will stipulate to that right now and we can all move on to something else entirely for the next six years.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2009, 08:54:19 AM »
Mike Sweeney:

I am very interested in what you just said there in that post----very interested!

The reason I say that is the so-called "Richard Francis Story" is a pretty rare and unique one in the original creation story of Merion. I say that because frankly it is about the only one we're aware of where any single person involved with the Wilson committee ever said anything in detail about the entire creation or throughout the entire original creation of the East or West courses and who was responsible for some particular thing. But having said that I will remind you that Francis's story came from him thirty nine years after the fact in 1950! If that alone doesn't tell us something pretty important about the way those men who created Merion worked back then as well as what kind of men they really were, then I just can't imagine what would!

In other words, it almost seems like they refused to take much of any credit for all the things they did there for so long and did so well. Why would that be? I don't think it's all that hard to figure out really if one simply carefully considers what the records of that club really do say or even don't say about it all.

Who was Richard Francis then and did he actually do more than he took credit for in that interesting story of his about a solution on #15 and #16?

I don't think there is any question of it but we surely recognize we will probably never be able to prove it for the very same reasons we first gave Tom MacWood over six years ago on his question of who was responsibles for the various holes and details of them of Merion East. I will note though that at least one prominent golf historian some time ago did single out Francis in the creation of Merion. 

It is only speculation on my part and I can go into it in more detail later, but I think Richard Francis basically served the purpose on the Wilson Committee at Merion as sort of their own inhouse Raynor to Macdonald at NGLA at that time. I would certainly endorse someone's speculation that back in that day in June when Macdonald and Whigam made their visit that he or they said to Merion that one appropriate thing to do would be to put a professional surveyor, engineer, construction specialist on board their amateur committee as they had done fairly uniquely for that time at NGLA and so MCC tapped Francis who was exactly that and a member of the club.

He did say in his story; "other than many hours over a drawing board and running instruments in the field...." That alone gives us a pretty good indication of what he probably did for the Wilson committee. That's what surveyor/engineers do-----they measure and draw things and record them for design and ultimately construction purposes. I doubt we ever will find those numerous "layouts", "courses" and "plans" that the Wilson Committee reported to the board that they had done throughout the winter and spring of 1911 long before the course went into construction but if we ever do I sure get the sense we will be looking at Francis's own hand on the paper plans in front of us. Did he sign them? Who knows; probably not.

But to get back to my interest in what you said----timelining the Richard Francis story accurately is important in the creation story of Merion East but it is only one detail in a long and interesting tapestry of other events leading up to and through others that are even more important.

On the other hand, timelining the Richard Francis story accurately is far more important to the credibility or lack thereof of the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" for the simple reason it is one of the most important building blocks (premises) used in that essay to make the additional premises made to reach the ultimate conclusion or contention of the essay-----eg Macdonald/Whigam must have done far more because Wilson and his committee at that point in the beginning in 1911 simply weren't capable of doing what they did do.

And so, if an author just tries to slide even a single interesting event such as the Richard Francis story back in time a good number of months BEFORE it happened or could've happened without even a scintilla of actual factual evidence to back it up eventually all the other events in the actual timeline are going to catch him up and prove him wrong and then the entire house of cards of an inaccurate essay are going to all come tumbling down as "Houses of cards" generally do. And that is what has happened here with the timelining of the Richard Francis story.

But in the entire timeline from June 1910 to April 1911 there is more----much more!

Mike_Cirba

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2009, 10:29:25 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

Thanks for the kind words.   I thought that David's essay and findings deserved some thoughtful, respectful, and comprehensive rebuttal and hope we can now put the matter to rest.

As regards the land of the Francis Swap, I can see clearly how David would have been confused when Francis described a 190x130 plot of land, and thought that the whole triangle with today's 15th green/16th tee running north to College Avenue must be the land they swapped for.   It's not, though..that land was always part of the Johnson Farm and always part of the land the Merion Club originally bought for their course.   That misunderstanding really is the premise of his theory, and it's very understandable in retrospect to see how he came to his conclusions.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 10:34:13 AM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2009, 08:35:30 PM »

Thanks for the timeline. The first 5-10 post of this thread pretty much cleared up what I wanted to know.

At this point in these threads it seems to be a case of David provoking the two of you, and the two of you responding. It appears that David enjoys provoking and that you two are responding out of passion for the History of Merion.

Mike Sweeney. 

Sorry to feel that way.  I wasn't trying to provoke anyone, and I certainly am not enjoying these threads.  Perhaps you are confusing my frustration with what you see as attempts at provocation.    My reasons for posting on this thread are very simple, and I don't think inappropriate.

1.   Point out to Mike that portions of his "timeline" conflict with the facts as I understand them, especially Francis' own statement and the Nov. 1910 Plan and accompanying documents. 

2.   Ask TEPaul what, if anything, the Merion's administrative records say about the Francis land swap?


My first point was very narrow, and as far as I know the conflict remains unaddressed.  Mike's words on whether or not I agree with even understand TEPaul's position about the land swap have nothing do with resolving the conflict.  (As to how this segued into Mike's usual displeasure about my unwillingness to accept his arguments without further discussion, you'll have to talk to him., but I don't think it has much to do with anything resembling a conversation.) 

As to my second point,  my understanding is that TEPaul will only tell me what MCC's records say if I  accede to his (not MCC's) unspecified demands.

What am I missing here?


___________________________________
As regards the land of the Francis Swap, I can see clearly how David would have been confused when Francis described a 190x130 plot of land, and thought that the whole triangle with today's 15th green/16th tee running north to College Avenue must be the land they swapped for.   It's not, though..

Mike,

I am not confused.  Here is what Francis said, with my bold:

"The land now covered by fine homes along Golf Course Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards by 190 yards long - the present location of the 15th green and 16th tee."

Nothing at all to be reasonably confused about.  Francis specifically described the exchange of that corner, which at that time measured about "130 yards by 190 yards."

Quote
. . . It's not, though..

Of course it is.  Francis said it.

On what basis are you ignoring Francis' words?

Quote
. . . that land was always part of the Johnson Farm and always part of the land the Merion Club originally bought for their course.   That misunderstanding really is the premise of his theory, and it's very understandable in retrospect to see how he came to his conclusions.

Mike, I think perhaps you have forgotten what my essay said about the Francis land swap.  Of course they were choosing from a much larger parcel.  That is precisely the point!  There was no formal exchange but rather an adjustment of what land would be purchased BEFORE the agreement was made.  It is all in the Essay.

As for the last few sentences,  I don't see a need to get into it except to note that you mischaracterize my position.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2009, 08:56:01 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I know you guys have plenty of photo's that I've never seen, but the aerial you posted is really an excellent one.  I didn't know that the current driveway didn't go in until the 1st hole was re-done.

Mike Sweeney

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2009, 10:18:50 PM »

Sorry to feel that way.  I wasn't trying to provoke anyone, and I certainly am not enjoying these threads.  Perhaps you are confusing my frustration with what you see as attempts at provocation.    My reasons for posting on this thread are very simple, and I don't think inappropriate.


David,

You sucked me back in.  ;)

Obviously, I have never met you so I am making judgements based on two reference points:

1. Postings on GCA.

2. People that know you personally.

I have taken a grand total of 3 law courses during my graduate school days at Cornell, and what the heck, if Doak can be a pompous Ivy League ass on GCA, I can give it a shot for a post.  :D

I think you are completely unaware of what you are doing, so I am not surprised that you think it is just frustration. The reason I say this is you really must be self-absorbed to show up at Merion Golf Club with hickory clubs when you do not know your host and someone from GCA went out on a limb to set you up at Merion. By the way, you never thanked that person, and it was not me.

Merion is a very difficult course that plays way beyond its yardage. If you are Bob Huntley, you can get away with showing up with an unknown host with hickory clubs. Now we all know that Uncle Bob is never going to give away anything in a WOLF match but that is a different story.

As I have mentioned before, Tom Paul and Mike have been equally guilty for many of these threads. However, they have responded appropriately on this thread, and it comes down to a difference of opinion.

I really wish that all of you would stop it.

I have no interest in ever being a member of Merion GC. That does not mean that I do not love the place like I grew up on and take for granted due to the hospitability of member friends who don't know an Alps from a Redan. I cringe when I think of the traffic and infrastructure that is going to push Merion GC to the limit in 2013.

I wish that Merion would turn into a National type of place that is a museum and is a blast to play but I do understand the fact that the Membership of Merion loves to host National Championships. It is in the DNA of the club.

With that in mind, I suggest you take up your differnces with Mike and Tom offline and directly with Merion GC.

Mike_Cirba

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2009, 11:26:57 PM »
Mike,

I am not confused.  Here is what Francis said, with my bold:

"The land now covered by fine homes along Golf Course Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards by 190 yards long - the present location of the 15th green and 16th tee."

Nothing at all to be reasonably confused about.  Francis specifically described the exchange of that corner, which at that time measured about "130 yards by 190 yards."


David,

You won't give up on this, will you?

There was already a 9-page thread on this very topic which is getting pretty silly at this point.  I have to admit that it took me up to Page 5 of that thread to understand what actually happened.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=34402.140

The bottom line is that on the November 1910 Land Plan, which you use to contend that the Francis Land Swap took place prior to then, and prior to Hugh Wilson and the Committee's involvement, the dimensions of the "triangle" in that Scale Drawing are only 90-100 yards wide, not 130 yards.

It was only 70% as wide as was required for the part of the course built in that section..

So, the "Francis Land Swap" was never for that entire 130x190 triangular piece of property no matter how Mr. Francis stated it almost forty years later...it was simply to widen it to fit both the 15th green and 16th tee/fairway into place by giving back land down around the 14th tee that was not part of "any golf plan".  (I'm hoping you'll exhibit some respect here and don't take this as an opportunity to try and discredit Mr. Francis in his later years as an unreliable witness as you've tried with Alan Wilson.  After all, unlike others you claim, he actually was one of the architects of the Merion golf course you're claiming to revere. ::)).   He simply was speaking about the entire dimension of the area he eventually needed to fit in 15 and 16 at the northern part of the property, and it's obvious looking at the Land Plan map to recognize it needed to be widened and ultimately was based on his late-night idea..

I do have to give proper credit to Jeff Brauer, who as a professional architect has likely seen this type of thing prior.   He recognized exactly what happened on the first page of that thread, and said the following;

I am going to assume that DM is correct that the property records show that there was a trianglular parcel up by 15 and 16, and the 11.15.10 Map confirms it.  It was created by a preliminary road design that featured a gentle curve as it entered the north end of the property.

The map also says Golf House Road is only in an approximate location, meaning that HDC and MCC may have agreed that some fine tuning was necessary, but at the same, felt pressure to acquire the land then.  The committee report did stress the need to act now. Perhaps there were some expiring options, tax benefits to HDC or whatever.

My take is that the land deal was basically done, but the parties were still friendly and the routing was known to need some tweaks to create the best golf course.

I don't think the entire 15 Green-16 Tee Triangle was swapped. I think it was enlarged by an acre to partially widen it to 130 yards. It was already 190 yards long.  If the land agreement allowed Merion 120 acres, with the flexibility to take what they needed, then the logical options were to find an acre to give back. or pay HDC for additional another $825 per acre for what might have been wasted land after the club had set a maximum purchase price for itself of $90,000.  Presumably, going back to the well was frowned upon, although I am sure it could have happened.
But it probably would have required new board action to raise funds and they simply wanted to avoid that.

Either way, I have been involved in many housing and golf developments.  Fine tuning of property lines to make sure there is no wasted land is common.  And it would have made sense then as well as now.  As an engineer, Francis realilzed that a small rerouting of Golf House Road - west at 15 green, and a bit east near 14 tee where the routing was only two holes wide (and where they had just secured the rights to the land from the RR for the 13th hole, could be reduced to offset the extra land used at 15 green.

All perfectly natural when trying to stay under 120 acres.  I get the sense that the Nov. 15, 1910 land agreement may have set the maximum acres and Francis simply had to keep under that acreage,  from both sides perspective.

The fact that Francis and Lloyd seem to have worked out the problems of the last five holes (and in contrast to DM's opinions, probably well after 11/10) certainly means they improved the routing on their own, whether portions of what they improved was originally concieved by Barker, CBM or the committee. I believe the land swap story proves the committee made serveral routing tweaks at a minimum. Left unresolved is who drew how much of the "bones" of the routing that they were tweaking, which is the interesting back story.


Also, and just as importantly David...

I've seen the MCC minutes that recommend the Francis Land Swap and they are from April 1911.   If that transaction had already been completed in the original January 1911 purchase, based on some agreement prior to November 1910 as you contend, then why the need for the adjustment three months later??   ::)

So, David...I would agree with other's here such as Mike Sweeney who recognize that this has become completely redundant, wasteful, and self-indulgent.

I've learned some new things from your work and I thank you for that but please let's finally move on.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 12:22:32 AM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2009, 03:16:21 AM »
Mike Sweeney,

I get it now.  You don't know care a lick about the merits of my argument.  You are here to take another swipe at my reputation.   

Three years ago you spread false gossip about my supposed snail's pace of play, and how I clogged up the entire course.   You were speaking out of school, rumor mongering with complete disregard for the truth and for my reputation.  We've come full circle.

You'll get no discussion from me about private conversations and arrangements concerning that round, my choice of clubs, or anything else that doesn't concern you.   

1.  I don't discuss or or defend my private dealings in a public forum, even in the face of vulgar rumors.

2.  It is none of your god damned business.

Your public post about a private matter (a matter that doesn't concern you) speaks loudly as to your character and integrity.  Not mine. 




________________________

Mike Cirba,

I said at the beginning that this was a factual question, and that it has been discussed repeatedly wasn't worth going into again. 

Whether you position is ultimately proven valid or invalid, it directly conflicts with what Francis  said.   Throw out Francis' words if you want, but they are about all I have, so I am sticking with them for now.

If there are any facts out there that conflict with my interpretation, I'd love to consider them.   

But really,  you and I both know that if the MCC minutes actually and directly refuted my theory, you guys would have used this against me long, long ago.

And I don't see much promise in the facts that have been alluded to:

1.  You and TEPaul have both recently mentioned something from April, after the CBM visit, but TEPaul called this an approval and you call it a recommendation.  Whichever, neither of your vague descriptions tells anything about when they came up with the swap, only when the deal was finalized.

2.  Same goes for the letter TEPaul keeps touting by the lawyer/member whose name I cannot recall offhand.  Judging from what I know about the various transactions that were going on about then, the attorney most likely came up with the plan whereby Lloyd and maybe a few others would pretty much bridge the deal, possibly from both sides, until Merion and HDC could get their ducks in a row and cash and deeds could change hands between the real parties.   

Remember Mike, for whatever reason these guys have never been too good to figuring out these land deals, and with all due respect, that hasn't been your strength either.  You guys put forward just about every crazy land theory in the book, but none of them had anything to do with what really happened.    Had we simply taken TEPaul's and Wayne's word for what the documents said about the land deals in the past, we'd believe that Merion owned not only the course, but all the land through the second course as well, and in 1909!

At  this point it would be derelict to accept TEPaul's word for what happened with the land.   And it is unreasonable for you guys to even ask me to.   

I don't understand why you just don't let me figure this out so we can put it behind us.

I assure you, if I am wrong about the timing of the swap (and it is certainly possible that I am) I'd love to put it behind us.  Moving the swap to a later date would certainly help explain a few things that nag at me   But I just can't do it unless the facts have to support it, and so far they don't.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 03:41:28 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2009, 06:35:35 AM »
"I assure you, if I am wrong about the timing of the swap (and it is certainly possible that I am) I'd love to put it behind us.  Moving the swap to a later date would certainly help explain a few things that nag at me   But I just can't do it unless the facts have to support it, and so far they don't."


David Moriarty:

I'm pretty much the eternal optimist and I too would love to see the Francis land swap thing put behind us some day even by you. Before I begin it would be interesting to me to know what few things nag at you that you think would be certainly explained if the swap and Francis's idea for it happened at a later date.

I also note that someone on this thread linked on to this one an old thread dedicated solely to the Francis land swap. That older thread was posted by me and it was an attempt to show the importance of the facts and timing of the Francis land swap to establishing the lack of credibility of your essay by proving one of your primary premises in your essay to be untrue.

I would like to remind you again that by trying to do that noone is trying to impugn or destroy your reputation. We are merely critiquing your essay on Merion and Macdonald/Whigam ("The Missing Faces of Merion") as to whether its premises and conclusions are true or not true. So in the future I hope you will refrain from resorting to that defense and devolving this discussion of Merion to that as you just did again on your post above to Mike Sweeney. If you continue to do that it's pretty apparent these discussions will never be very productive and this subject will never really get resolved on here.

That older thread on the Francis land swap and this thread is to explain and resolve this Francis land swap thing by determing when it happened and how exactly it was done (how the actual land was rearranged). Unfortunately, that thread did not seem to reach a resolution at least not one with you as you continued to insist that in your mind it must have happened before November 15, 1910 apparently due to the APPEARANCE on that Nov. 15, 1910 plan OF THAT TRIANGLE in the northern corner of the property that contains the 15th green and the 16th tee.

As far as I can tell you still insist today that in your opinion that is the case. Is that true?

If so, perhaps we can START by taking another look at the resolution offered at the April 19, 1911 MCC board meeting by MCC governor Paul Thompson that addresses the Francis land swap idea and see what that can tell us about when the Francis land swap idea happened and how.  And then if it looks fairly conclusive that Francis's land swap idea happened AFTER that November 15, 1910 plan was produced and disseminated to the membership and not BEFORE it, that should certainly explain and essentially prove that the triangle that appears in the north corner on that November 15, 1910 plan was simply not wide enough on that plan (and perhaps on the Wilson committee contour topo maps that were made from that November 15, 1910 plan's land arrangement) they were using in the winter and spring to lay out courses to fit the 15th green and 16th tee up into as we have maintained for quite some time.

However, if we are even going to attempt to have this discussion again I'm going to ask you first to consider that your interpretation of what Francis meant when he mentioned the dimensions of that triangle in his story thirty nine years after the fact is not the ONLY interpretation of what actually happened.

Can you and will you agree to that? If so, I will continue with this Francis land swap and when it happened and how; but if you either can't or won't agree to that, I'm not interested in continuing.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 06:44:21 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2009, 09:02:21 AM »
David,

If you're really looking to put this behind us, you need to consider that the way Richard Francis described the area of the triangle involved in the swap nearly 40 years later is in error.    He clearly was thinking about the entire dimensons of the land he needed in total up there, not the specific land he swapped for.

If you agree that at least some of that triangle was part of the land they originally purchased in the Nov10 timeframe, you also need to recognize that at that time it was only about 70% of what they eventually needed in terms of width.

One other relevant point is simply this...if they already bought most of that triangle in the original Nov 1910 transaction, how could they have bought it all when the Land Swap deal actually got approved in April 1911?    No, instead it was simply an adjustment to the dimensions of the road on the top and bottom.

And since we're being precise and you mentioned the words "approved" and "recommended", my understanding is that Macdonald "approved" at least one of the Merion Construction Committee's multiple plans directly to them on April 6th, 1911, which was then "recommended" by the Construction Committee to the Board for their Final Approval at their 4/19/1911 meeting, along with the recommendation of the purchase of the 3 acres along the clubhouse as well as the adjustment in the boundary to accomplish the Francis Land Swap.

I believe it was Shivas who contended that one would never "approve" of a plan of their own making to others;  one may submit, or recommend, or deliver, but in any case, it's consistent with Alan Wilson who said that one Macdonald's return one-day visit, he was there to "consider and advise as to our plans".

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 01:14:01 PM by MikeCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2009, 11:01:55 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for dragging me back into a Merion debate via a years old post of mine.....not! :-\

I hate to admit it, but I reread it and some of the old thread plus this one after ignoring it for a while.



David,

I have one question for you, and I ask this knowing how hard it is to decipher old documents having done some historical research of my own. Like you, I have been researching something of passion to me (the old rail yard where my grandfather worked) and know how hard it is to unearth things that happened 100 years ago or more.  A lot of facts come by googling totally different subjects, and no matter how hard we look at the records, there are some things that will never be explained, even by legal property records and the like, because there were back room understandings, etc.

How do you decide which writings to trust?

In your original quotes, you use some words written to conclude that the swap occurred in 1910 or before, but ignore others.  In re-reading the quotes, they note that the " drillers were out in a few days after the land swap" building the 16th green.  If we know construction was occurring in April 1911 when CBM came back to look, doesn't that indicate that this is when the land swap occurred?Is there any reason to believe they couldn't have occurred at MCC? The basis of your contention seems to be that there had to be a distinct line between planning and construction, but IMHO, its very possible that they were in enough of a rush to start the first 13 holes and figure out the rest as they went.  Or, it just happened that way since the last few holes obviously were troulbing Francis.

I understand that an old line club feels no obligation to post its historical documents for a group of architecture enthusiasts.  As TePaul hints, no matter how the rest of the world acts, its just not the way its done at some of these old institutions.  But, I am not sure this discussion really even needs any more documents than have already been revealed.  Its all interpretation anyway.

As to my interpretation, and as per Mike's repost of my comments show, based on my experience, last minute routing tweaks certainly occur after construction.  I re-read my old thoughts and am still convinced it was a road realignment that was in question, not the entire parcel and the drilling quote makes it as likely in my mind that it didn't have to occur prior to 11-10-1910.  But, as always I could be wrong.

I hate to post or contribute and will probably not post any more on this thread. Both sides are at fault for the acrimony here.  The whole new look of golf club atlas may be a bit of putting lipstick on a pig if it continues! :( 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2009, 11:16:12 AM »
Mike (Cirba and Sweeney):

If we are getting technical about what actually went on in 1910 and 1911, they (that is MCC) did not buy anything in Nov. 1910. What they had in Nov. 1910 was a basic understanding (agreement in principle with HDC) that they would buy a certain amount of land for a certain amount of money out of a larger HDC tract from the HDC eventually if they agreed to get to work doing a course.

When they had that (agreement in principle) via two letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC in Nov. 1910, then MCC got their lawyer and board member, T. DeWitt Cuyler, to swing into action and create what was known as The MCC Golf Association Company. We need to take very careful note of the company part of that because before that MCC had been operating at Haverford for golf with what was known as the MCC Golf Association which was formed in 1909 by a group of golfing members including Alan Wilson and I believe Hugh and a few others. I doubt that former MCC Golf Association was a separate registered company but it may've operated through a corporate entity within MCC known as the Haverford Land Co (not the same thing as HDC).

(Do you think these MCC "captains of the universe" like Lloyd, Scattergood, Griscom, Cuylers, Thayer et al were corporation freaks and geeks with all the complex financial shit that went along with all that or what?? I guarantee you if these bigtime business honchos could borrow a nickel for 5 1/4 cents on this side of the street and lend it out on the other side of the street for 5 1/2 cents or save a dollar in taxes somehow they would do it in a heartbeat with some kind of labrynthian corporate structure no matter how rich they were! ;) ).

It would take Cuylers who was apparently one of the most powerful men in the American railroad industry and an expert on corporate law and corporate registration a number of weeks to get the MCC Golf Association Company set up with officers, with a certain amount of stock and registered. That would not get done until around the third week of Dec. 1910.

At that point 161 acres was transfered from HDC to a man by the name of Rothwell (probably a title and trust company employee) for $1.00. Three days later Rothwell transfered the property to Lloyd and his wife. At that point Lloyd was the president of the newly set up MCC Golf Association Co.

Lloyd would hold the land for the golf course (120 acres) until July 19, 1911 at which point he transfered it back to Rothwell who transfered it to the MCC Golf Association Company the same day, each time for $1.00. Within a year or so the MCC Golf Association Company would lease the land and course to MCC, the club.

One might wonder what-all the 161 acres was that was initially transfered through to Lloyd and his wife in Dec. 1910. It was the entire 140 acre Johnson Farm and we believe it was the 21 acre Dallas estate. When Lloyd transfered the 120 acres back through Rothwell to the MCC Golf Association Co. in July 1911 we assume he kept about 40 acres of the old Johnson Farm across Ardmore Ave from the second hole that became part of the residential development to the west that was known as HDC. We feel pretty confident that for about the last 7-8 months (from Dec, 1910 to July 1911) Lloyd and his MCC syndicate had essentially been in control of HDC too and probably through a stock underwriting/offering he engineered and just a basic preconceived real estate sales management arrangement with the former owners of HDC and probably primarily MCC members et al many of which would be residential buyers and builders on the HDC land (221 acres). We've begun to track the real estate development sell out to the west over the next 7-12 years into the 1920s and a lot of them were MCC members including interestingly enough Hugh I. Wilson on the corner of Exeter Rd overlooking the 14th hole.

But the most fascinating and impressive thing to me is obviously there were a number of preconceived reasons Lloyd took control and ownership like that in the end of Dec. 1910 and according to a letter from Cuylers to Evans on Dec. 21 1910 one of those reasons was so Lloyd could move boundary lines for the course around at will because the boundaries of what would become the course had not been definitely determined upon at that point according to Cuylers.

And we also know because it is recorded in the administrative records of MCC that within a couple of weeks or sooner (the beginning of Jan. 1911)  the Wilson Committee would be formed and according to their April report to the board they would spend the next three months between January and April first laying out many different courses on the ground, then going to NGLA for two days in the second week of March, then home to hone their course layouts down to five different plans, get Macdonald/Whigam back on April 6, 1911 for a day, go over the grounds and five plans, select one to be approved by the board and that was done on April 19, 1911.

That's what the records show, those are the facts, and in the course of all this at some point in 1911, Francis who was then a member of Wilson's committee had his idea of how to finally fix #15 and #16 which he said in his story had been a problem getting in all along with the last five holes (again obviously because that triangle that shows up on the plan back on Nov. 15, 1910 was just too damned narrow to fit the 15th green and 16th tee up into). Francis certainly knew to go to Lloyd and just get his permission on the spot to redelineate that road on the plan which wouldn't even be built for a couple more years and it was done (no deed or land transfer necessary at that point) and they probably did get quarry men to blow the top wall off the quarry in two days as his story said. The thing I think is so interesting is Francis's midnight visit to Lloyd could hardly have been a surprise in the slightest to Lloyd----he was ready for it because he and Cuylers and MCC had put him in position to do something precisely like that back in the end of Dec. 1910. In other words, they all saw the possibility of something like that coming and they said so in writing back in the end of Dec. 1911 because at that point no course or precise land figuration for the course had definitely been determined upon as they said in Dec 1910.

Had MCC had "a plan", a routing and course or anything like it in place in 1910 or certainly before Nov. 15, 1910 as Moriarty's essay contends they sure wouldn't have had to do all that and go through all that, would they? And what in the world would it have been all about then that the Wilson Committee was doing all those three months in the winter of 1911 with what they reported were their "numerous different courses on the ground" and then "five different plans" that would be used to select one to be approved on April 19, 1911?

Anyway, at least one piece of MCC correspondence also indicates throughout the time from the middle of June 1910 until well into the fall they all felt it not prudent to be too obvious about what they were doing which I suppose primarily meant having their eye on the Dallas estate.

I'm quite sure this will not be the end of all this on here, at least not from the essayist who seems to think again that this is now more about some threat from Philadelphians and others to impugn his reputation rather than about the truth of what really did happen at Merion in 1910 and 1911, and when and why and how thoughout that entire timeline of events, but in my opinion and most everyone else around here including Merion itself it sure should be the end of it!! It seems all that's left now is bickering over the meaning of a few words and sentences and the constant demands of a single person that everything available, even private club records that have never been in the public domain, be shown to him for his review because he decided, well over a year ago, to write with far less than complete information, an essay which turned out to be highly inaccurate, and apparently highly inaccurate because it lacked so much of the resource information that became available about the subject he chose; and has been criticized since because of all its inaccurate premises and conclusions about what Macdonald/Whigam must have done and what Hugh Wilson and his committee couldn't have done.

Add to that in nearly a century since this took place at Merion at Ardmore noone ever thought to question who the designers of the course were because there never has been any reason to question it. It was all recorded by the club and any historian seemed to understand that. There never was any mystery about it and never some puzzle that this essayist sometimes refers to on this discussion group. Apparently the only puzzle for him with Merion was he just didn't understand Merion's history very well, and by his own admission on here, when he began this campaign to contend someone else was the router and designer of the course or the driving force behind it. Still today he doesn't seem to understand it very well or at least he doesn't seem any more willing to admit that because of his lack of resource information when he published his essay his premises and conclusions in it were wrong.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 03:06:19 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2009, 08:45:59 PM »
asdfjk
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 09:44:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »
David,

I have one question for you, . . .

How do you decide which writings to trust?

Lots of factors, too many for here.   If you want maybe we should start a thread on such research related questions.

In a case like Francis  I try to take the entire thing at face value if I can, and if it can be read entirely consistently with what else I know, then I trust the entire thing.    But when I say "what else I know" I don't mean what I think or hope, I mean hard fact.  I won't throw out Francis based on speculation, even speculation by an expert like yourself. 

It is a hard process when one has a strong interest in a certain outcome, and even hard when one doesnt. Take your reading of Francis, for example.   You see a conflict in Francis' words, and there may be one, but that depends upon the blasting having been done in April.   I understand why you ASSUME it was April, but it didnt' NECESSARILY take place in April, and there are a few hints in the rest of what we know that suggest it may not have.   Don't get me wrong.  Maybe it happened in April.  But maybe it didnt.   If it didn't then we don't have a conflict.  (By the way, I didn't ignore the two days later we blasted language in my essay, but I did buried part of the discussion in footnote 17.)

The point?  I try to figure out how the entire statement could be true, because it usually is.  And if I find a conflict I assume that it is probably my mistake, not Francis's mistake.  So I reexamine the source of the conflict to see what is really KNOWN and what is assumption or speculation.    That is essentially what I have done throughout this process, and how I have figured out what I have figured out.  For one example, Hugh Wilson's story wasn't consistent with Merion's accepted history.  Rather than ignore this or assume Wilson made a mistake or was just being gracious, I took him at his word.  Hugh Wilson was there, so was Francis, and so was H.J. Whigham.  They were there and we weren't.  That is a pretty powerful reason to take them at there word as best we can.

Now if it turns out that the conflict is unresolveable, then it gets much more complicated.   I will burn that bridge when I come to it.  So far I see no NECESSARY conflict.

Quote
I understand that an old line club feels no obligation to post its historical documents for a group of architecture enthusiasts.  As TePaul hints, no matter how the rest of the world acts, its just not the way its done at some of these old institutions.

I understand as well, but if the clubs feel this way, then TEPaul is putting them in a horrible position.  He is the one making claims based on their records.  All I want to do is vet his claims, and surely they need to be vetted before we accept a single one of his claims as fact.
Mike (Cirba and Sweeney):

If we are getting technical about what actually went on in 1910 and 1911, they (that is MCC) did not buy anything in Nov. 1910. What they had in Nov. 1910 was a basic understanding (agreement in principle with HDC) that they would buy a certain amount of land for a certain amount of money out of a larger HDC tract from the HDC eventually if they agreed to get to work doing a course.

When they had that (agreement in principle) via two letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC in Nov. 1910, then MCC got their lawyer and board member, T. DeWitt Cuyler, to swing into action and create what was known as The MCC Golf Association Company. We need to take very careful note of the company part of that because before that MCC had been operating at Haverford for golf with what was known as the MCC Golf Association which was formed in 1909 by a group of golfing members including Alan Wilson and I believe Hugh and a few others. I doubt that former MCC Golf Association was a separate registered company but it may've operated through a corporate entity within MCC known as the Haverford Land Co (not the same thing as HDC).

(Do you think these MCC "captains of the universe" like Lloyd, Scattergood, Griscom, Cuylers, Thayer et al were corporation freaks and geeks with all the complex financial shit that went along with all that or what?? I guarantee you if these bigtime business honchos could borrow a nickel for 5 1/4 cents on this side of the street and lend it out on the other side of the street for 5 1/2 cents or save a dollar in taxes somehow they would do it in a heartbeat with some kind of labrynthian corporate structure no matter how rich they were! ;) ).

It would take Cuylers who was apparently one of the most powerful men in the American railroad industry and an expert on corporate law and corporate registration a number of weeks to get the MCC Golf Association Company set up with officers, with a certain amount of stock and registered. That would not get done until around the third week of Dec. 1910.

At that point 161 acres was transfered from HDC to a man by the name of Rothwell (probably a title and trust company employee) for $1.00. Three days later Rothwell transfered the property to Lloyd and his wife. At that point Lloyd was the president of the newly set up MCC Golf Association Co.

Lloyd would hold the land for the golf course (120 acres) until July 19, 1911 at which point he transfered it back to Rothwell who transfered it to the MCC Golf Association Company the same day, each time for $1.00. Within a year or so the MCC Golf Association Company would lease the land and course to MCC, the club.

One might wonder what-all the 161 acres was that was initially transfered through to Lloyd and his wife in Dec. 1910. It was the entire 140 acre Johnson Farm and we believe it was the 21 acre Dallas estate. When Lloyd transfered the 120 acres back through Rothwell to the MCC Golf Association Co. in July 1911 we assume he kept about 40 acres of the old Johnson Farm across Ardmore Ave from the second hole that became part of the residential development to the west that was known as HDC. We feel pretty confident that for about the last 7-8 months (from Dec, 1910 to July 1911) Lloyd and his MCC syndicate had essentially been in control of HDC too and probably through a stock underwriting/offering he engineered and just a basic preconceived real estate sales management arrangement with the former owners of HDC and probably primarily MCC members et al many of which would be residential buyers and builders on the HDC land (221 acres). We've begun to track the real estate development sell out to the west over the next 7-12 years into the 1920s and a lot of them were MCC members including interestingly enough Hugh I. Wilson on the corner of Exeter Rd overlooking the 14th hole.

But the most fascinating and impressive thing to me is obviously there were a number of preconceived reasons Lloyd took control and ownership like that in the end of Dec. 1910 and according to a letter from Cuylers to Evans on Dec. 21 1910 one of those reasons was so Lloyd could move boundary lines for the course around at will because the boundaries of what would become the course had not been definitely determined upon at that point according to Cuylers.

And we also know because it is recorded in the administrative records of MCC that within a couple of weeks or sooner (the beginning of Jan. 1911)  the Wilson Committee would be formed and according to their April report to the board they would spend the next three months between January and April first laying out many different courses on the ground, then going to NGLA for two days in the second week of March, then home to hone their course layouts down to five different plans, get Macdonald/Whigam back on April 6, 1911 for a day, go over the grounds and five plans, select one to be approved by the board and that was done on April 19, 1911.

That's what the records show, those are the facts, and in the course of all this at some point in 1911, Francis who was then a member of Wilson's committee had his idea of how to finally fix #15 and #16 which he said in his story had been a problem getting in all along with the last five holes (again obviously because that triangle that shows up on the plan back on Nov. 15, 1910 was just too damned narrow to fit the 15th green and 16th tee up into). Francis certainly knew to go to Lloyd and just get his permission on the spot to redelineate that road on the plan which wouldn't even be built for a couple more years and it was done (no deed or land transfer necessary at that point) and they probably did get quarry men to blow the top wall off the quarry in two days as his story said. The thing I think is so interesting is Francis's midnight visit to Lloyd could hardly have been a surprise in the slightest to Lloyd----he was ready for it because he and Cuylers and MCC had put him in position to do something precisely like that back in the end of Dec. 1910. In other words, they all saw the possibility of something like that coming and they said so in writing back in the end of Dec. 1911 because at that point no course or precise land figuration for the course had definitely been determined upon as they said in Dec 1910.

Had MCC had "a plan", a routing and course or anything like it in place in 1910 or certainly before Nov. 15, 1910 as Moriarty's essay contends they sure wouldn't have had to do all that and go through all that, would they? And what in the world would it have been all about then that the Wilson Committee was doing all those three months in the winter of 1911 with what they reported were their "numerous different courses on the ground" and then "five different plans" that would be used to select one to be approved on April 19, 1911?

Anyway, at least one piece of MCC correspondence also indicates throughout the time from the middle of June 1910 until well into the fall they all felt it not prudent to be too obvious about what they were doing which I suppose primarily meant having their eye on the Dallas estate.

I'm quite sure this will not be the end of all this on here, at least not from the essayist who seems to think again that this is now more about some threat from Philadelphians and others to impugn his reputation rather than about the truth of what really did happen at Merion in 1910 and 1911, and when and why and how thoughout that entire timeline of events, but in my opinion and most everyone else around here including Merion itself it sure should be the end of it!! It seems all that's left now is bickering over the meaning of a few words and sentences and the constant demands of a single person that everything available, even private club records that have never been in the public domain, be shown to him for his review because he decided, well over a year ago, to write with far less than complete information, an essay which turned out to be highly inaccurate, and apparently highly inaccurate because it lacked so much of the resource information that became available about the subject he chose; and has been criticized since because of all its inaccurate premises and conclusions about what Macdonald/Whigam must have done and what Hugh Wilson and his committee couldn't have done.

Add to that in nearly a century since this took place at Merion at Ardmore noone ever thought to question who the designers of the course were because there never has been any reason to question it. It was all recorded by the club and any historian seemed to understand that. There never was any mystery about it and never some puzzle that this essayist sometimes refers to on this discussion group. Apparently the only puzzle for him with Merion was he just didn't understand Merion's history very well, and by his own admission on here, when he began this campaign to contend someone else was the router and designer of the course or the driving force behind it. Still today he doesn't seem to understand it very well or at least he doesn't seem any more willing to admit that because of his lack of resource information when he published his essay his premises and conclusions in it were wrong.

Thanks for the information.  No time to consider it now.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 09:46:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2009, 09:55:23 PM »
"In a case like Francis  I try to take the entire thing at face value if I can, and if it can be read entirely consistently with what else I know, then I trust the entire thing.    But when I say "what else I know" I don't mean what I think or hope, I mean hard fact."


David Moriarty:

In a case like Francis you say you mean "hard fact"? What hard fact have you ever seen that puts Francis back in 1910 helping to create a routing with Macdonald/Whigam as your entire section on Francis in your essay contends?

TEPaul

Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2009, 10:07:25 PM »
"I understand that an old line club feels no obligation to post its historical documents for a group of architecture enthusiasts.  As TePaul hints, no matter how the rest of the world acts, its just not the way its done at some of these old institutions.

I understand as well, but if the clubs feel this way, then TEPaul is putting them in a horrible position.  He is the one making claims based on their records.  All I want to do is vet his claims, and surely they need to be vetted before we accept a single one of his claims as fact."


What are you talking about David Moriarty? What horrible position am I putting Merion in? These people are my friends; I've known them for decades, and they've known and understood my interest in the history of Merion for years. If I'm saying something on here they don't like and they feel puts them in a horrible position, believe me I would be the first one to hear about it, not you! You don't no anyone there; you know nothing about the club or its membership and so it would be fairly suitable if you'd refrain from telling me or anyone else on here what kind of position I'm putting them in.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My attempt at the Timeline
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2009, 10:53:30 PM »
"In a case like Francis  I try to take the entire thing at face value if I can, and if it can be read entirely consistently with what else I know, then I trust the entire thing.    But when I say "what else I know" I don't mean what I think or hope, I mean hard fact."

David Moriarty:

In a case like Francis you say you mean "hard fact"? What hard fact have you ever seen that puts Francis back in 1910 helping to create a routing with Macdonald/Whigam as your entire section on Francis in your essay contends?

I think you missed my point.   Absent hard facts to the contrary, I take the entire Francis statement to be true and accurate.   And if there is an apparent inconsistency or error in his statement, then the first thing I do is reexamine my understanding of the related facts.   Chances are the mistake is mine, not Francis.'   I want to avoid dismissing, discounting, or ignoring Francis' words, based on speculation or assumption or wishful thinking.   

That is why don't understand and I haven't accepted your theory on the swap; it necessarily conflicts with Francis' statement.  Given a choice between accepting your speculation or Francis' own words, I'll go with Francis.    Now if there are direct facts that conflicted with Francis' words, then I'd reconsider. 

"I understand that an old line club feels no obligation to post its historical documents for a group of architecture enthusiasts.  As TePaul hints, no matter how the rest of the world acts, its just not the way its done at some of these old institutions.

I understand as well, but if the clubs feel this way, then TEPaul is putting them in a horrible position.  He is the one making claims based on their records.  All I want to do is vet his claims, and surely they need to be vetted before we accept a single one of his claims as fact."


What are you talking about David Moriarty? What horrible position am I putting Merion in? These people are my friends; I've known them for decades, and they've known and understood my interest in the history of Merion for years. If I'm saying something on here they don't like and they feel puts them in a horrible position, believe me I would be the first one to hear about it, not you! You don't no anyone there; you know nothing about the club or its membership and so it would be fairly suitable if you'd refrain from telling me or anyone else on here what kind of position I'm putting them in.

I am glad to hear this, Tom.   Given that MCC and Merion are fine with you divulging the information, then lets get to vetting your claims. 

Where to you want to start? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)