[DMoriarty]

Bryan,  that is how I had that swap figured.

As to the southern border, I am not sure, but I too doubt the dimensions on the 1910 map and always have.  I think that that the college land may extend further out on the 1910 plan than on the Atlases.

This wouldn't surprise me, as i think that this drawing was created to show the Membership the general shape and location of the property, and was not meant as an exact statement of what they planned to purchase.   I know Mike and Tom have tried to claim that this was some sort of special "legal document" but I never got that impression. 

______________________________

Mike,  I believe long ago I produced a routing of Merion West that appeared in the Philadelphia inquirer in the spring of 1913.   Surely Joe has this or I can provide it to him.   

As for when the trade happened . . .     

I believe I indicated to Wayne that it happened in December 1912, but have since found better information and suspect it happened, formally or informally, in April 1911.   I believe a member of the club purchased the property at that time and Merion began playing over a corner of this property almost immedeately   Not long after Merion built a massive mound on that corner, and it is visible in some of the early photos.   

Now why on earth would they want to have an opton of playing over a blind corner right in front of the tee on an already difficult long par 4?   Time for you to guess.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

I'm not sure what you told Wayne, but the Title Insurance Company of Pennsylvania has the following;

"10-22-1912
Charles Carver, Jr. sold .352 acres to Alfred B. Eaton who then conveyed the property to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association 78’x197’ along the south border of the Wheeler property in exchange for a 47’x323’ strip of ground west of the 2nd green"

It seems odd for two reasons;

1) This sale would be 18 months after the date you place it, but stranger dealings have happened apparently.   However, it's not quite like the Railroad deal where all these guys had strong railroad connections and I'm sure just got permission informally for years.   This was also not land already controlled by the Haverford Development Company so it would have been tougher to work both sides of the transaction, so I would normally imiagine seeing something more timely and formal.

2) They gave up land to create an impinged tee shot on number six for land behind the second green they didn't use for the golf course!   

[DMoriarty]

As I said, the trade likely occurred earlier, in fact, even if it didn't in law.   I believe Carver was a club member with possible connections to Lloyd and he bought the land sometime around April 1911, presumably to capitalize the increase valuation the new course would bring.    He sold the land a little over a year later, and the trade was finalized before, or as part of that sale.   


As for why they would want to have to play over a corner.  Can you think of any holes where this is required.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Now you're not going to surprise me and tell me that Hugh Wilson decided to design a Road Hole there, are you?! 

[Mike_Cirba]

As to the southern border, I am not sure, but I too doubt the dimensions on the 1910 map and always have.  I think that that the college land may extend further out on the 1910 plan than on the Atlases.

This wouldn't surprise me, as i think that this drawing was created to show the Membership the general shape and location of the property, and was not meant as an exact statement of what they planned to purchase.   I know Mike and Tom have tried to claim that this was some sort of special "legal document" but I never got that impression. 

This should be something Bryan could prove out, correct?

The south boundary of the property from Ardmore Ave. is exact from the 1910 Land Plan map and the 1913 Railroad map, so that's a pretty good start.

Bryan...can you do your magic?

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

If that isn't the damndest thing!

It appears they gave up land along the right of today's 6th hole, making that tee shot partially blind and somewhat impinged on the right side to gain land up along Ardmore Avenue that they didn't use for the golf course behind the original #2 green.

Stranger yet is giving up about 15 yards in length down behind the original 10th tee, 11th green, etc.

What this also means is that the November 15, 1910 Land Plan is an accurate representation of the land they intended to use for the golf course at that point in time, down to the square foot, independently verified by the identical dimensions of the 1908 Railroad Map.

..........................

Huh??    How'd you reach that conclusion?  One dimension of an irregular area does not an area give.  Perhaps you forgot the 

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Now you're not going to surprise me and tell me that Hugh Wilson decided to design a Road Hole there, are you?! 

Nah, the land swap meant that there was less impingement on the drive, although it would be nice to discover a road hole on Merion.

[TEPaul]

“October 22, 1912. .352 acres from Charles Carver, Jr. to Alfred Eaton to MCC Golf Association. Consideration $1.00. (This is the rectangle of 78’x197’ which was traded to Merion CC Golf Association by Eaton in exchange for the rectangle 47’x323’ west of our second green, and later conveyed by Eaton to Mrs. Andrew Wheeler. It should be noted that this trade was made so a straight drive from the 6th tee would not have to carry over a strip of ground not owned by the club. It should be further noted that this rectangle conveyed by Eaton to Wheeler appears to be our property and our out of bounds stakes are actually on the Wheeler property. It has been my previous recommendation that this rectangle be purchased from Wheeler some time, although if the Wheeler property should be acquired by hostile neighbors we could claim this rectangle by adverse possession. I have further recommended that sometime in the future we might acquire the entire Wheeler property. It would make a good site for a joint swim club with Merion CC and others.”


Within about the last ten years Merion actually did buy the entire Wheeler property!

[Bryan Izatt]

As to the southern border, I am not sure, but I too doubt the dimensions on the 1910 map and always have.  I think that that the college land may extend further out on the 1910 plan than on the Atlases.

This wouldn't surprise me, as i think that this drawing was created to show the Membership the general shape and location of the property, and was not meant as an exact statement of what they planned to purchase.   I know Mike and Tom have tried to claim that this was some sort of special "legal document" but I never got that impression. 

This should be something Bryan could prove out, correct?

The south boundary of the property from Ardmore Ave. is exact from the 1910 Land Plan map and the 1913 Railroad map, so that's a pretty good start.

Bryan...can you do your magic?  Not sure what magic you're looking for.  But here's one more puzzler for you.  The distance from Ardmore to the southern boundary of the Eaton estate:

1908   300 feet

1910   360 feet

1913   220 feet

The 1910 map is way out of whack with the 1913 map on this dimension.  One more nail in the accuracy coffin of the 1910 map.

Re your real estate transaction information, could either of you decode the transaction for me.  Where was the Wheeler estate. I don't see it on the map.  Why is the 47 foot strip only 323 feet long.  The south boundary of the Eaton estate given up to Merion is over 800 feet long.  Dazed and confused.

Mike, I hope you are still going to try to pinpoint the eastern boundary with Haverfford College for me.

 

[DMoriarty]

Sorry to leave you guys hanging but I just got back from a terrific Lakers game.

David,

Now you're not going to surprise me and tell me that Hugh Wilson decided to design a Road Hole there, are you?! 

Nah, the land swap meant that there was less impingement on the drive, although it would be nice to discover a road hole on Merion.

Bryan, except that while they swapped for the land they kept the impingement on the drive only moreso.  They even built sand and grass mounds on the corner so that a play over it would be dangerous whether or not one actually had to cut over an out-of-bounds.   

Does the hole described in this passage remind anyone of any particular hole, strategically?

"The best way to play it is to "cross a fence before you come to it."  In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes, as there is a pit just short of the green directly in his path, and placed there for the express purpose of thwarting his intentions."   

Sure sounds like a Road Hole to me, at a fundamental strategic level, that is.  It needs a terraced green and trouble behind to catch those carelessly flying over the "pit" at the front and right, but as described elsewhere, it had this as well.  Even the trade for the land makes sense, as the one thing that CBM did not like about the original road hole was that was the out-of-bounds.

Granted, it doesnt look like a Raynor or Macdonald built road hole, but it wasn't, it was built by the men of Merion, so I wouldn't expect it to. 

Don't see it?  Let me change just a few words but keep the strategic principles the same.

"The best way to play it is to "cross a corner before you come to it."  In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of an old hotel and garden, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and disaster if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes, as there is a pit just short of the green directly in his path, and placed there for the express purpose of thwarting his intentions."   

Mike and TomPaul, if your heads haven't exploded yet, consider the hole described in the passage and consider the fundamental strategic concept of a road hole.   Surely you recognize the strong strategic similarities.

__________________________________

TEPaul, Thanks for the quote, although it would be helpful if we knew the author, the date written, and the context.  Also, there is an open parens but no close.  Where does the parens end, and is the parens your addition or the authors?

_________________________________

Bryan asked:
Re your real estate transaction information, could either of you decode the transaction for me.  Where was the Wheeler estate. I don't see it on the map.  Why is the 47 foot strip only 323 feet long.  The south boundary of the Eaton estate given up to Merion is over 800 feet long.  Dazed and confused.

Bryan, I believe there may have been multiple swaps regarding this property, the first one pushing the entire 10 acres closer up to ardmore ave, and extending it east, the second one cutting a notch in the corner, and possibly one later cutting a diagonal.   Perhaps the dimensions provided by TEPaul are for the second swap. 

The estate was the Smith Estate on the 1908 atlas, then the Eaton Estate in 1913, (but it was the Carver estate for about 18 months in the middle.)   It eventually became the Wheeler estate, or at least 1/2 of it did, as it was split in about 1/2 at some point. 

[Bryan Izatt]

Sorry to leave you guys hanging but I just got back from a terrific Lakers game.

David,

Now you're not going to surprise me and tell me that Hugh Wilson decided to design a Road Hole there, are you?! 

Nah, the land swap meant that there was less impingement on the drive, although it would be nice to discover a road hole on Merion.

Bryan, except that while they swapped for the land they kept the impingement on the drive only moreso.  They even built sand and grass mounds on the corner so that a play over it would be dangerous whether or not one actually had to cut over an out-of-bounds.   

..........................

Sure, there are some similarities and in the loose ways that template names are used, you can think of it as a road hole, if you like.  In the teens that would have been RR sheds, not old hotel and garden. no?

_________________________________

Bryan asked:
Re your real estate transaction information, could either of you decode the transaction for me.  Where was the Wheeler estate. I don't see it on the map.  Why is the 47 foot strip only 323 feet long.  The south boundary of the Eaton estate given up to Merion is over 800 feet long.  Dazed and confused.

Bryan, I believe there may have been multiple swaps regarding this property, the first one pushing the entire 10 acres closer up to ardmore ave, and extending it east, the second one cutting a notch in the corner, and possibly one later cutting a diagonal.   Perhaps the dimensions provided by TEPaul are for the second swap. 

The estate was the Smith Estate on the 1908 atlas, then the Eaton Estate in 1913, (but it was the Carver estate for about 18 months in the middle.)   It eventually became the Wheeler estate, or at least 1/2 of it did, as it was split in about 1/2 at some point. 

Thanks for the clarification.  Mike's quote from the Title Insurance Company of Pennsylvania has the following;

"10-22-1912
Charles Carver, Jr. sold .352 acres to Alfred B. Eaton who then conveyed the property to the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association 78’x197’ along the south border of the Wheeler property in exchange for a 47’x323’ strip of ground west of the 2nd green"

It is still confusingly written.  Does it not sound like the 78’x197’ strip conveyed to Merion is along the south border of the Wheeler property?  But, that is really the dimensions of the parcel at the east end of the Eaton estate.  Surely the 47’x323’ strip of ground west of the 2nd green is in fact a strip along the south border of the Eaton/Wheeler estate?  The 1920 atlas shows a notch out of the Wheeler estate, but it's closer to 47 by 200.  It's nowhere near 323 feet.  How can the Title Insurance Company of Pennsylvania have it located on the southern border of the Wheeler estate in 1912 when the atlas still has it as the Eaton estate, not the Wheeler estate, in 1913?  These guys/girls seemed to be playing musical boundaries back in the day.

[TEPaul]

Bryan:

The Smith, Eaton, Wheeler place is essentially the same land. It was just transfered over the years starting with Smith and eventually to Wheeler. Merion bought the remaining six acres from the Wheelers less than ten years ago. The reason for your confusion in the differences in the dimension from Ardmore Ave to the southern border of the Eaton land doesn't appear to be mistake on the 1910 plan but on the 1913 PRR map. It's pretty funny really. PRR Plat maps are not exactly official property dimensions for any kind of title, deed or mortgage use so if they make a mistake no title company is likely to pick it up because title companies don't use PRR Plat maps for land survey use for titles and deeds. I see what happened there. Whoever was typing the dimensions (off metes and bounds) of the Eaton to MCCGA and MCCGA to Eaton swap got the dimensions mixed up on both sides of the swap. Due to that they actually made the entire ten acre property a lot narrower than it should be. I know this because we have a blueprint for Merion and the deeds reflecting this swap and you can see right on the dimensions of both sides that the PRR Plat map got them mixed up with the actual deeds. So that explains the big loss of the dimension from Ardmore Ave to the bottom of the Eaton land on the 1913 PRR Plat map. The way to prove this obviously is to just go out behind #2 green and walk it off. That will show the 1913 PRR Plat map was considerably too short from Ardmore Ave to the southern border of the property. Of course you have to add in the dimension to the southern border of the other side of the swap back in 1912 but we have that too.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Are you going to play a cat/mouse game or tell us your understanding of the 6th hole or produce any other evidence you have to back your claims?   Otherwise, your not just wasting our time, but a whole lot of other people as well.   At some point, some might even accuse you of less than desirable motives.

btw...it's hard to keep up with the ongoing changes in your essay.   Ran must have put about your 5th revision on the site by now...if it was so accurate in the beginning as you claim, why the need to keep changing it?

I'm trying to have a straight up discussion with you but you seem more inclined to play games.   And please, every other point you make doesn't need to include the name Wayne Morrison or another dig at Tom Paul.

Wayne hasn't even been on this site for months now, which just goes to prove his sanity, I guess.

Tom is now threatening to leave, and frankly, he's probably contributed about 5000 more things of value to this site than you or I ever have, so it's really a damn shame that this whole site is becoming dragged down and marginalized by this stuff.

I'm sure you'll say it's all his fault, but it seems odd to me that there are 1500 members of this site and you (and Tom MacWood) are the only ones who's been at war with him.  I find that odd.

You know I go back and keep asking myself...if I had written an uninvited, revisionist essay about Los Angeles Country Club without having their records at my disposal and put it on a public site, and then there were some good long-standing members of the club here on GCA, how I could in good conscience continue to fight a three+ public war with them across the country demanding they turn over private club records to me, and if they argued that I was wrong with every bit of public and private evidence at their disposal if they believed I was, I can't for the life of me figure out how I'd be entitled to the slightest bit of personal righteous indignation.

Strange...guess it's just me.

Please show us what you have or I'm quite done discussing the issue, as well.    If you think I have a double standard, so be it.   It's you I'm trying to have an educational discussion with right now, because frankly, you're the only one who still believes what you do.


Bryan,

Sorry, I'll see what I can do today, but I have to admit this is growing tiresome.   

Thanks for your help so far.

[Mike Sweeney]

Are you going to play a cat/mouse game or tell us your understanding of the 6th hole or produce any other evidence you have to back your claims?   Otherwise, your not just wasting our time, but a whole lot of other people as well.   At some point, some might even accuse you of less than desirable motives.

btw...it's hard to keep up with the ongoing changes in your essay.   Ran must have put about your 5th revision on the site by now...if it was so accurate in the beginning as you claim, why the need to keep changing it?


Please show us what you have or I'm quite done discussing the issue, as well.    If you think I have a double standard, so be it.   It's you I'm trying to have an educational discussion with right now, because frankly, you're the only one who still believes what you do.

Benjamin Rush is smiling from the Heavens on Philadelphia this morning!

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, what's with the stupid, uncalled for accusations?  The guy is putting this evolution together in his mind piece by piece - as he gets them.  He doesn't have access to everything all at once, so he has no other way to do it. 

And you're calling him the "cat" in this cat and mouse game?   That's a laugh.   

If you people would just chill out and quit attacking each other every time your PRIDE tricks you into doing so, you all just might be able to figure this thing out, but every time ANY OF YOU comes up with a theory, the fur starts flying and the guys on the other side start whining like babies, claiming all sorts of nonsense and firing all sorts of snide nastiness every which way.  Then, of course, these other 1500 members are all treated to the inevitable "I'm leaving" threats, which at this point, aren't really threats at all...

Frankly, it's appauling behavior that is beneath all of you.   

David,

I'm sick of this behavior too, and I'm really pissed.   I have nothing against the truth and wouldn't be here still if I didn't want to get to it.

I'm tired of the games.

As I find evidence, I'm producing it.   If I think I have some new insight, I type it.

Don't you think it's a bit silly at this point to produce some bits of an article alluding to the 6th being a Road Hole and not quoting the author, the source, or anything else.

Don't you think it's a bit silly at this point for David to assert that everyone but him has had the wrong understanding of the Francis Swap for the past several weeks, and now only disclose that he thinks the land over by 2 & 6 are the ones mentioned in the April minutes, ONLY BECAUSE BRYAN  figured out that land was swapped over there as well and ruined his surprise?!

[Mike_Cirba]

Silly...scratch that.  Sad, actually.

"Damn it, Bryan, are you trying to steal my thunder?  You've discovered the problem with TEPaul's latest assumptions regarding the minutes. "

That was yesterday afternoon, Shivas.  As of this morning, we are no closer to hearing anything from David about his source.

I have been trying to keep this thread ON TASK, and yet it's devolved again.

I'm VERY INTERESTED to hear what information David has;  why hasn't he produced it or even cited it?

And frankly, who cares if it was a Road Hole or not...we already know that Wilson tried to copy elements of certain holes from abroad and that they had Macdonald as an advisor.

I thought we had moved on to just the facts about the property lines, which a number of us are TRYING to uncover.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Silly...scratch that.  Sad, actually.

"Damn it, Bryan, are you trying to steal my thunder?  You've discovered the problem with TEPaul's latest assumptions regarding the minutes. "

That was yesterday afternoon, Shivas.

As of this morning, we are no closer to hearing anything from David about his source.

So Bryan threw out an idea before DaveM does...so what?  DaveM is a rather methodical type and he's also a man who is almost certain to face indignation and mockery if there is even the slightest flaw in anything he says.  So before he blurts out a theory, he wants all his ducks in a row....and who can blame him for that, given all that's gone on here.  As you said, this was only yesterday afternoon.  I would sure as shit hope that if DaveM were going to work up a multiple land swap theory that makes sense and is solid, it'd take longer than half a day.

Shivas,

This isn't "a day".   David has been telling us we've had a fundamental misunderstanding of the minutes now for weeks.

Frankly, I've been trying to take him at his word and have a civilized discussion which is the purpose of this thread.

If you don't see I've been trying to change the tone here then I guess I'm not doing a good job.

[Mike_Cirba]

How about this Shivas...

I frankly don't see you chastising David for trashing Wayne Morrison every other post even though Wayne isn't here to defend himself and hasn't been for many moons.

The irony is that he's getting taken over the coals and his and Toms subject matter is only tangentially related.

Its as if you or I wrote a book about George Thomas and LACC and someone took us to task for poor research by contending that Herb Fowler really didn't design the original course there.

So while I accept your chastisement and its duly noted, please just don't try passing yourself off as fair and impartial and even-handed in your treatment of the players here, sad to say, 

[Mike_Cirba]

Of course, the only diffeerence with that analogy is that you and I aren't mwmbwrs of LACC and don't have to intreract with the LACC membership everyday.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I hate to ask, but is Bryan and DM now saying the land swap mentioned in TePaul's minutes are related to these small parcels that have been mapped?  They seem like separate transactions to me, based on the Francis comment about Golf House Road.

Or, is it Bryan's contention that MCC picked up more land in the vicinity of No. 1 green that balanced out the land lost by 14 tee to green than previously thought?

One last question - TePaul says he has the metes and bounds.  So, what is the date of that survey? Is it tied to the land purchase in November-December 1910?  Or to the final configuration in April 1911?  Is there more than one survey?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Silly...scratch that.  Sad, actually.

"Damn it, Bryan, are you trying to steal my thunder?  You've discovered the problem with TEPaul's latest assumptions regarding the minutes. "

That was yesterday afternoon, Shivas.  As of this morning, we are no closer to hearing anything from David about his source.

I have been trying to keep this thread ON TASK, and yet it's devolved again.

I'm VERY INTERESTED to hear what information David has;  why hasn't he produced it or even cited it?

Mike,

That's the same crap that came from Wayno and TEPaul prior to David presenting his white paper.

He's not obligated to meet your time table.

And frankly, who cares if it was a Road Hole or not...we already know that Wilson tried to copy elements of certain holes from abroad and that

First you chide him for suggesting such, and now you accept the possibility that the hole was intended as a "Road Hole"

Instead of first examining the elements/features of the hole you chose to ridicule the suggestion.

You're so invested in Wilson that you greet any attribution to CBM with ridicule.
You're not being objective, perhaps you're incapable of being objective with respect to Merion/Wilson/CBM.


they had Macdonald as an advisor.

I thought we had moved on to just the facts about the property lines, which a number of us are TRYING to uncover.

Does that mean that David and others aren't permitted to "ADD" interesting tidbits to the discussion.
What are you so afraid of that makes you disclaim anything and everything that David posts ?
   

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I didn't ridicule David for suggesting it might be a Road Hole.

I merely made what I thought was a good spirited comment about "Hugh Wilson" designing it.

Its certainly plausible.

I just wonder how long you'd tolerate someone attacking you and your historical research, at say, Garden City almost daily on a website you chose to leave months ago?

Where's your righteous indignation' or Shivas's for that matter?

When did it become proper to attack people in their backyards here? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

If you guys held to the factual posts, this thread would be 13 posts rather than 13 pages.  We don't need a moderator, we need a referee.........

[Mike_Cirba]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOGWbzUM-y8

How about this...

"Hey guys...I came across more information and I'm not sure yet what it means but I found this 1911 article in the Guardian that described Merion hole by hole and here's what it says about the sixth hole.   Evidently the club bought some land and built a mound, and etc.etc.etc., and it sounds to me a lot like they were trying to build a Road Hole.   It even mentions Macdonald's influence, or design, and in the same spirit of disclosure I've pontificated about here for the past months, here it is for your perusal."

Don't you think that would be a better approach to materials found within the public domain?

How about we take a more Bauschian approach to some of this stuff?  

I'm certainly up for that.   I'm also up for no more attacks on anyone, from any side.

Now, can we move on and discuss metres and bounds?


As regards Carver and/or Eaton, there was an opening day tournament at Merion and guys like Wilson, Lloyd, Toulmin, etc., played, as well as most other prominent golfing members I'm aware of but neither of those names are included among the participants.   I'm not sure if they were members or not.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Does the hole described in this passage remind anyone of any particular hole, strategically?

"The best way to play it is to "cross a fence before you come to it."  In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes, as there is a pit just short of the green directly in his path, and placed there for the express purpose of thwarting his intentions."   

Sure sounds like a Road Hole to me, at a fundamental strategic level, that is.  It needs a terraced green and trouble behind to catch those carelessly flying over the "pit" at the front and right, but as described elsewhere, it had this as well.  Even the trade for the land makes sense, as the one thing that CBM did not like about the original road hole was that was the out-of-bounds.

Mike and TomPaul, if your heads haven't exploded yet, consider the hole described in the passage and consider the fundamental strategic concept of a road hole.   Surely you recognize the strong strategic similarities.


David,

You might be surprised to learn that I think there is certainly evidence that some of the principles of the Road Hole were used on Merion's 6th with a drive hugging the corner successfully being given appropriate advantage while a shot directed further left turning quickly into a three shot hole.

I wonder if this is something that was originally envisioned or something that evolved in the first few years?   What year is your source from?

However, from that description, it could be any number of "strategic" holes of that type, and the 1916 US Amateur program compared it to the 18th at Fox Hills on Long Island.

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