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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3325 on: July 24, 2009, 10:50:02 AM »
In another shameless attempt to get this over 100 pages as a joke...

But I have to ask TMac - why write that nothing has been solved and then present an opinion as "agreed upon" that very few actually do agree upon?  I know at least three people here who don't think its pretty clear that Wilson was only involved AFTER seeding......hmm, construction starts April 1911, course seeded late 1911, committee appointed Jan 1911.  

I hate to correct you again (I've spent a good percentage of my time on this thread correcting your facts), but we don't know exactly when the CONSTRUCTION committee (note the emphais on construction) was formed, only that it was early in 1911, and they began preparing the ground in late March and early April 1911. And you are correct it was seeded in Septemeber 1911. No one has presented any evidence that Hugh Wilson was involved in any design activity prior his trip in 1912, incuding his own account and his brothers account.

Again, hmmmm, other than in the word parsed world you live in.  Has anyone declared Columbus Ohio a truth free and logic free zone that I didn't hear about?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 10:53:41 AM by Tom MacWood »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3326 on: July 24, 2009, 10:50:32 AM »
Hey Jeff, be careful.  I lived in Columbus from the fall of 1970 to the summer of 1978, and probably spent more time at OSU's Scarlet course than I did in the classroom.  Though TMac and I are contemporaries, I never once saw the man nor knew of his existence until joining this site.  Personally, I think he really is from Michigan, probably lives in a cabin in the Upper Peninsula, but is too embarrassed to admit it.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3327 on: July 24, 2009, 10:57:10 AM »

 Its pretty clear Wilson design activities did not begin until after the course was laid out and seeded, and after he returned from the UK.

Clear to who?   You and Moriarty??   

That's about it as far as my counting...

Even other's who defended you like Mucci, Kennedy, and Shivas wouldn't go that far, I'm pretty certain.

On the other side, a host of people have tried to disabuse both of you of your illogical assumptions and clearly falllacious interpretations, only to have mostly given up in frustration and/or disgust.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3328 on: July 24, 2009, 10:59:54 AM »
Hey Jeff, be careful.  I lived in Columbus from the fall of 1970 to the summer of 1978, and probably spent more time at OSU's Scarlet course than I did in the classroom.  Though TMac and I are contemporaries, I never once saw the man nor knew of his existence until joining this site.  Personally, I think he really is from Michigan, probably lives in a cabin in the Upper Peninsula, but is too embarrassed to admit it.  ;)

That was before my time. I did hear stories of you from my brother-in-law, who you know, and I will leave it at that.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3329 on: July 24, 2009, 11:05:24 AM »
TMac,

Please relate those if you want.  If you are referring to the then young man, a teacher and a coach as I recall, who worked partime in the shop (Kent, aka Red, or was it Rusty?), we were friendly.  If he has bad things to say about me, such is life.  I can only say that I had a regular game for many, many years with a large group of guys, and to this day I can go back a get a game with absolutely no trouble.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 11:07:42 AM by Lou_Duran »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3330 on: July 24, 2009, 11:08:03 AM »

 Its pretty clear Wilson design activities did not begin until after the course was laid out and seeded, and after he returned from the UK.

Clear to who?   You and Moriarty??   

That's about it as far as my counting...

Even other's who defended you like Mucci, Kennedy, and Shivas wouldn't go that far, I'm pretty certain.

On the other side, a host of people have tried to disabuse both of you of your illogical assumptions and clearly falllacious interpretations, only to have mostly given up in frustration and/or disgust.

I should have added clear to many objective analysts.

We are still waiting for you to explain why you were the first to quote the April report.

Rich Goodale

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3331 on: July 24, 2009, 11:14:48 AM »
I don't know who you mean by "we" above, Tom, but I think that the great majority of people reading this thread are only waiting for it to reach 100 pages so that it can be humanely put to sleep......

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3332 on: July 24, 2009, 11:17:26 AM »
I don't know who you mean by "we" above, Tom, but I think that the great majority of people reading this thread are only waiting for it to reach 100 pages so that it can be humanely put to sleep......

who said anything about being humane?  I think most want it brutally shot down. ;)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3333 on: July 24, 2009, 11:21:29 AM »



Would anyone else here wish to formally put their name to the following statement?
 

"Its pretty clear Wilson design activities did not begin until after the course was laid out and seeded, and after he returned from the UK."


Time to chime in if you think this revisionist history has been proven.   Please don't be shy.  




« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 01:35:58 PM by EnoughsEnuff »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Chunshuy Yeti
« Reply #3334 on: July 24, 2009, 12:01:29 PM »

TEPaul

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3335 on: July 24, 2009, 12:13:43 PM »
Enoughsenuff Cirba:

Forget about that last part. Didn't you notice the post on here where I said I took those MCC meeting minutes, Cuylers' letters and Wilson report to probably the best forger in NYC? I mean Rich is right that I'm not much of a document doctorer or alterer so I took those things to the best of the best and had them beautifully forged to say just what I want them to say. It wasn't cheap, that's for sure. The real documents are now in a place that will be harder to find than where the Knights Templar put that stuff they ripped off from underneath The Temple on the Mount back in 9 AD!

The Cuylers letter now reads----the boundaries of the land to be acquired are as yet uncertain owing to the fact there is no fucking way the golf course has been located.....

The resolution to the board offered by Lloyd thanking Macdonald and Whigam now reads-----We thank those two good and kindly gentlemen, C.B. Macdonald and W.J Whigam for their help and advice even though we are aware that Charlie has a rap-sheet a half mile long for being a serial child molester in NYC.....

The Wilson report part about the NGLA visit now reads-----...both days were spent with Charlie explaining to us the finer points and principles of how to successfully pick up New York showgirls. We knew no more about this than the average club member but owing to his advice we learned the best way is to not try to compete with anyone else but to just make sure you totally outspend them...

I feel quite strongly now that Merion will need to rewrite its early architectural history to reflect the fact that it really did have a whole lot more profanity and sex and intrigue attached to it than anyone has previously known or understood. But we need to be honest and realize if you are going to get in bed with the best from back in that early era, this is what you pretty much need to live with. It even looks like the routing and design that Wilson took home with him that was approved by C.B. and then the MCC board might have been a really good doodle routing and design plan done by NYC showgirl Myra Van Vroomtang while she waited her turn!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 12:26:24 PM by TEPaul »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3336 on: July 24, 2009, 01:10:04 PM »
Ha! Eric, is that my alleged fellow Buckeye tracking over to Ann Arbor for a game of golf at the only true MacKenzie university golf course in Ann Arbor?  It must be pre-global warming.   

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3337 on: July 24, 2009, 01:15:09 PM »
Ha! Eric, is that my alleged fellow Buckeye tracking over to Ann Arbor for a game of golf at the only true MacKenzie university golf course in Ann Arbor?  It must be pre-global warming.   

Ha!  Your two MacKenzie courses are nothing compared to my Art Hills (he did the renovation) masterpiece!

Go Green.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline
« Reply #3338 on: July 24, 2009, 01:24:11 PM »
Now that there are many more people following this thread, I think it is worth revisiting the review of Merion by Tilly in the Dec 1912 Philadelphia Record newspaper, as well as the January 1913 American Golfer article by the author(s) "Far and Sure".

Gosh, I'm not an English teacher (well, maybe Anthony and I could team teach a class together with spelling lessons), but it sure seems that we have a serious case of plagiarism here!  Since Tilly's article was likely written before the AG article (although I don't think this can be proved), I'll assume "Far and Sure" is/are the plagiarist(s)!

And just to make the comparison of the relevant passages more easy, here are a couple of figures I put together:





Or, I think a more reasonable explanation is that Far and Sure was two people, with Tilly being one of the two.  

Let's see if we can't take this puppy to page 100 with something relevant.

Joe above did a comparison of a TIllinghast news article versus "Far and Sure" in the American Golfer.

Below, see exceprts of Tillinghast's American Cricketer article compared to "Far and Sure"

















« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 10:11:42 AM by EnoughsEnuff »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Chunshuy Yeti
« Reply #3339 on: July 24, 2009, 01:38:16 PM »


Eric,

Nice find...

I assume that's a pic of HH Barker laying out his version of the "Alps" in December 1910?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3340 on: July 24, 2009, 01:44:38 PM »
COME ON BABY, PUSH IT TO 100!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3341 on: July 24, 2009, 01:44:55 PM »
COME ON BABY, PUSH IT TO 100!

DAMN....MAYBE THIS TIME~
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3342 on: July 24, 2009, 01:45:17 PM »
SHAMELESS ATTEMPT TO......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3343 on: July 24, 2009, 01:45:42 PM »
OH I GIVE UP. SOMEONE ELSE WILL GET THE GLORY
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3344 on: July 24, 2009, 01:57:43 PM »
Its good to see all the concerns over the collateral damage to Merion, and the worries over a smooth and tranquil Walker Cup, have subsided.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to welcome Mike Cirba back. Yesterday I was worried after you quit (both times) that we would never see you again.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Chunshuy Yeti
« Reply #3345 on: July 24, 2009, 02:03:18 PM »


Eric,

Nice find...

I assume that's a pic of HH Barker laying out his version of the "Alps" in December 1910?

Nope, there are no corn stalks in the pic. 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3346 on: July 24, 2009, 02:23:14 PM »



Would anyone else here wish to formally put their name to the following statement?
 

"Its pretty clear Wilson design activities did not begin until after the course was laid out and seeded, and after he returned from the UK."


Time to chime in if you think this revisionist history has been proven.   Please don't be shy.  


I would, and I'd like to add this second part as well. Do you have any evidence Hugh Wilson was involved in design activity prior to his 1912 trip?

"Its pretty clear Wilson design activities did not begin until after the course was laid out and seeded, and after he returned from the UK...No one has presented any evidence that Hugh Wilson was involved in any design activity prior his trip in 1912, incuding his own account and his brothers account."
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 02:25:39 PM by Tom MacWood »

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3347 on: July 24, 2009, 02:26:04 PM »
Let this be the one!!

edit: shoot. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Paul OConnor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Meroin
« Reply #3348 on: July 24, 2009, 02:28:02 PM »
100 yet?  Got to be close!  Get in the hole!!

John Moore II

Re: Meroin
« Reply #3349 on: July 24, 2009, 02:31:03 PM »
(I think its going to take another 15 posts or so to get this to 100 pages, so maybe I'll try to ask a relevant question to all parties involved)


Do all involved in the research not have access to the same primary source documents? If not, why not?

On that same idea, how, if everyone is reading from the same primary source documents, do 2 groups of people manage to come up with nearly polar opposite conclusions as to what happened?

Are these primary documents available for public viewing? If not, why have they not been published in some fashion so that the active observer might be able to take a look at the primary material for himself?

This new paper to be published that I seem to recall Tom Paul mentioning a page or so back, will it be published with proper University of Chicago citations like a normal, peer reviewed scholarly work? If not, why not? Citations add to the credibility of the work. I would put very little stock in the David Moriarity piece that caused the previous engagement in this war last year because frankly the endnotes citing the primary and secondary sources used to write the piece are pathetic. Whenever this next piece comes out, please use legitimate citations for works used, otherwise, it will amount to a pile of garbage to anyone who knows what a proper piece of scholarly writing should look like.

So, maybe I, and the rest of the observers, can get some answers.