[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

In the 1901 article, Wilson is in the Top 1.7% of over 2500 golfers handicapped by the Metropolitan Golf Association at the time, which as you know was the largest and by far the most prestigious section in the country.  

By 1910, of 800 golfers handicapped in Philadelphia (max of 18 hcp), there were only 11 golfers in the district with lower handicaps, a single 4 and 10 5s.

In spring of 1913, according to revisionist theories, he did not have any designs on the ground that any newsman would be aware of yet he was called a "golf expert" that spring.

Why would Robert Lesley also be called a golf expert?   I don't recall him designing any courses or giving lessons?

Also, what evidence do you have that Wilson and the others were essentially the green committee in Jan 1911.   As mentioned, Griscom was chairman of the Green Committee back to 1896, when they went from 9 to 18 holes, so there is no way that he would or any of the others would have had "the knowledge of construction and agronomy of the average club member", despite Wilson's humble, self-effacing words.


and by the way, despite my satirical style, these are serious questions and I think they betray who was there and who actually was responsible for the plans...

Are you certain Lelsey had not been involed in design?

Robert Lelsey's credentials were much better than Wilson's.  He had been around the game from twenty years, in an elevated compacity. He was intimately familar with the great courses on the East course. He had travelled extensively overseas. He was outspoken adovcate for better golf courses in Philadelphia. He was associated with Windeler, Jacques, Travis, Macdonald, and Heebner, high profile men who had studied and been involved in golf design. I wouldn't call him an expert but he was more of an expert than Wilson.

[TEPaul]

"Why is it a stretch to believe that the course was laid out immediately, in late 1910?"


Tom:

Because on Nov. 23, 1910 the "terms" of the agreement with HDC to purchase the land on or around the 10th of Dec. was changed and put off for a number of months (it wouldn't happen until July 1911). This was part of the arrangement by Lloyd and Cuylers that was explained in a letter to MCC president Evans.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Cullum,

Yes, the recommended golf course plan was attached to the April 19, 1911 report to the Merion Board of Governors.

Unfortunately, it hasn't been found; it was only referenced as "attached".

[Tom MacWood]

"The disjointed excerpt you have given us does not say Wilson's committee had layed out many different courses in the winter and spring of 1911. The author of the report was Lesley, he was not on Wilson's committee. There is no mention of Wilson or his committee in the report. And Lesley does not give a time frame for when these different course were laid out. It could have been in 1910."

Tom:

How do you know Lesley was the author of that report to the board of 4/19/1911?

I realize Lesley was not on Wilson's committee. That's why it would be pretty odd if Lesley authored that report and said "we" went up to NGLA. Why would Lesley go to NGLA if he wasn't on Wilson's committee?

I guess it would be convenient for us a century later if that report mentioned Wilson but it seems to me it probably wasn't necessary to mention his name back then at that board meeting as all the men on the board of MCC certainly knew what was going on then and who was doing it.

No, Lesley or that report does not mention a time frame but if all that laying out of numerous different courses had taken place in 1910 one would think it would've been mentioned by Lesley at the board meetings of November and December 1910 or January 1911.

But perhaps not:


Lesley at the 4/19/1911 board meeting:

"Ooops, sorry guys, I guess I forgot to tell you at the last two or three or four board meetings that chairman Hugh I. Wilson and his four man member New Golf Grounds Committee were over there at that old Johnson Farm in Ardmore in 1910 laying out numerous different courses for a new course for us over there which is pretty nice of them since I don't believe we even appointed them to a committee until last January or something. Did you guys know we are moving our golf course from Haverford to Ardmore and Old Money Bags Horatio here has taken title to about 160 acres over there? Or is it 117 acres? Or 120 or maybe 130 with an option for 13 more? Whatever, this young "go-get-'em" whippersnapper novice golf architect of ours, Hughie I. Wilson and that plan-drawing Dick Francis, will figure it out for us somehow even if they have to ride a scooter over to see Horatio in the middle of the night for some late night land swapping permission; and if they can't figure it out then Rodman can always get those two fine gentlemen Macdonald and Whigam back down here again at some point to route and design us a world class golf course in about two hours. What did you say, Horatio? You're saying Macdonald and Whigam were here about two weeks ago for a day to approve a plan that's attached to this report and I just reported that? Oh, yeah, I see where Wilson's report says that and you're right here's that plan under my briefcase. Did I just read that? Maybe I did; I guess I must have been thinking about pussy or something which shouldn't be surprising to any of you guys! Did you notice the chassis on that waitress who just brought us our tenth drink?"

TEP
You said Lelsey was the author. You also said there is no mention of Wilson or his committee in any of the minutes. Were you mistaken?

Your entire disjointed excerpt is odd. In one moment it says 'they went to the NGLA', and in the next 'on our return...'  Instead of teasing us with a small portions of the report, why don't you release it in its entirety in the spirit the recent releases of the Franics article, the P&O letter and Hugh Wilson's 1916 account?

[TEPaul]

"Are you certain Lelsey had not been involed in design?

Robert Lelsey's credentials were much better than Wilson's.  He had been around the game from twenty years, in an elevated compacity. He was intimately familar with the great courses on the East course. He had travelled extensively overseas. He was outspoken adovcate for better golf courses in Philadelphia. He was associated with Windeler, Jacques, Travis, Macdonald, and Heebner, high profile men who had studied and been involved in golf design. I wouldn't call him an expert but he was more of an expert than Wilson."




Unbelievable! Just UNBELIEVABLE!!

Even if there is no evidence of it let's throw in Herbert Leeds, Walter Travis, Devereaux Emmet, the Fownses as the designers of Merion East. After all, by 1911 they may've had more experience in architecture than Hugh Wilson. What the hell, no sense in leaving anyone out as that might be looked at as minimizing their contribution to the design of Merion East. Let's throw everyone in the world in as the designers of Merion East who was alive in 1911 and who preceded Hugh Wilson with golf architectural experience!

[Tom MacWood]

"Why is it a stretch to believe that the course was laid out immediately, in late 1910?"


Tom:

Because on Nov. 23, 1910 the "terms" of the agreement with HDC to purchase the land on or around the 10th of Dec. was changed and put off for a number of months (it wouldn't happen until July 1911). This was part of the arrangement by Lloyd and Cuylers that was explained in a letter to MCC president Evans.

That was a formality that would not prevent the course from being staked out in late Novemeber or December. Afterall part of their commitment to Connell & Co. was to build a golf course in short order. Do you think he would object to them begining the preliminary steps?

[DMoriarty]

David M,

No surprise here. I am now being told that according to you, I cannot interpret what some straightforward wording means.  Wow! . . . .

Do you fail to see the irony when you insist you are just following straightforward words, yet each time you write those supposed straightforward words, your current version not only differs from your previous versions, but also your version differs from TEPaul's presentation of the words?  And irony still the more when we consider all the different versions that TEPaul has given us over the months?

As I said Jeff, believe what you want.  But my purpose is to figure out really happened, and unfortunately taking TEPaul's word for things does not serve that purpose.

___________________________________________________________________________

Experts at work . . .    

During this time period, when someone was called an "expert" in the context of planning golf courses, this meant that they had some sort of expertise in planning golf courses.   Almost without exception such individuals were professionals and/or had done it before.     Based on my understanding it is extremely unlikely that MCC was referring to Wilson and his Committee as "experts at work preparing plans . ."

-  What does the 1901 British Am have to do with whether, in late December 1910, Wilson et al. had any expertise at planning golf courses?

-- What do the 1901 or 1910 handicap listings have to do with whether, in late December 1910, Wilson et al. had any expertise at planning golf courses?  These lists do not even include professionals, yet the vast majority of those considered experts at planning courses were professionals.  

-- TEPaul's representation that Wilson et al. were at work at the time of MCC's announcement not only misses the point, it is unsupported by the facts as we know them.   We don't know when MCC made the announcement, but it was most likely between mid December 1910, and January 6, 1911.  While Wilson noted his committee was formed in early 1911, I have never seen anything indicating that it was in the first few days of January, and Wilson's first known activity was sometime shortly before February 1, 1911.    

[TEPaul]

"TEP
You said Lelsey was the author."


Tom:

No I didn't. You're the one mistaken on that. What I said was Lesley GAVE that report at the 4/19/1911 board meeting, not that he authored that report. There is a very good reason for that which has been explained by me before on these threads. I even took the time to check with some board members and committee chairmen of Merion about their board and committee structure on that score.

[TEPaul]

"Based on my understanding it is extremely unlikely that MCC was referring to Wilson and his Committee as "experts at work preparing plans . . .."



I think we understand that given all the times you've said it on here. Unfortunately the central words of that remark are "Based on my understanding."

Based on Merion's understanding and based on the understanding of Merion's historians it is extremely likely that MCC was referring to Wilson nad his Committee as the "experts at work preparing plans."

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I'm sorry, let me correct myself. Lelsey gave the April report, and there is no mention of Wilson or his committee.

Why does the report shift between first and third person when discussing the trip to the NGLA?

[DMoriarty]

Was a drawing of a golf course attached to the April report ?

We are told that it was, but as far as I know the "evidence" of this is what TEPaul thinks are staple holes in the minutes.  

As usual, I would caution against accepting TEPaul's interpretation and representation of these things as anything remotely approaching fact.

_______________________________________

Tom MacWood,  

I am not sure why you are arguing with TEPaul about the report, or anything else for that matter.

He can obviously do what he wants with the source material (including doctor it when it suits him) so if he has a point to make about what it contains then he needs to produce it.  Otherwise his comments are nothing but more unverifiable hot air.

By the way did you notice above that he now claims that the report said "we" went to NGLA when all along he has been telling us that the report said that "they" went to NGLA?  Typical.   Yet another switcharoo of what was represented as a verbatim account to support the argument de jour.

[TEPaul]

"Quote from: John_Cullum on Today at 08:04:58 AM
Was a drawing of a golf course attached to the April report ?


We are told that it was, but as far as I know the "evidence" of this is what TEPaul thinks are staple holes in the minutes.  

As usual, I would caution against accepting TEPaul's interpretation and representation of these things as anything remotely approaching fact."




JohnC:

No, it's not just about staple holes in the minutes that our expert researcher/analyst/writer here just mentioned. The report actually says the plan is submitted herewith.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I am sorry that I paraphrased myself and Lesley in what I wanted to be a quick type, rather than go back and paste in TePaul's version from somewhere out of 6000 plus posts here.  I am sorry only because it gives you more reason to parse words, thump your chest, and tell me I am dumb as a stump.

But then as a lawyer, you are used to parsing words to get a conclusion you want, and last time I checked, lawyers weren't really interested in the truth, in general, they are interested in presenting the best possible case for their clients, and refuting almost everything the other side might have to say, going to incredible lengths on minutia when the basic facts are not in their favor.  And that is your pattern here.  

Maybe the OJ case has scarred me for life regarding attorneys and arguments based on deflection away from substance to parsing of words, etc.  We all have our biases, myself included.

But, in terms of what a historian might say (and I would still love to have one weigh in on this circle jerk of a discussion) I stand by my generalized assertion that the source document, grammar notwithstanding, is probably the best evidence we have as to what happened.  All your parsing and Tom Mac's logic could be wrong.  History should be more facts and less interpretation, albeit some of both are always required.

Just out of curiosity, and understanding completely why you want to see the source document, IF TePaul has doctored his excerpt, just what do you expect to find that he doctored?  And, how would changing the grammar of all that affect anyone's theory?  I say it would be very risky for him to alter the document here, both because of his relationship to MCC and because if it ever came out, his rep would really be damaged.  In addition, he would really have to concoct an alternate scenario to cover his bases that would pass vetting as well.  I am not critiqing his intelligence when I say it would be difficult to anticipate all the possible ramifications of such deception that you allege.

I mean really, do you think he has all the time in the world to do that, just to screw with you?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I know how badly you want it to be Barker on a single day on his way to or from Atlanta in Dec 1910 but that interpretation is wholly inconsistent with laying out many different golf courses prior to going to NGLA, or what followed that visit.

There are also no mentions of hiring Barker for any purpose.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom MacWood,

I know how badly you want it to be Barker on a single day on his way to or from Atlanta in Dec 1910 but that interpretation is wholly inconsistent with laying out many different golf courses prior to going to NGLA, or what followed that visit.

There are also no mentions of hiring Barker for any purpose.

Mike!

You ignorant slut!

There are timetables!

There are trainspotters!

If Barker stopped of at Merion on his way from Garden City to Georgia we would know!

Or we could just guess!

Rich

[TEPaul]

Jeffrey:

I doctored documents? Who said that? What documents does someone think I doctored?



You know, Jeffrey, I searched high and low for one of those Wilson contour survey maps that Wilson and his committee were using to design Merion East and I got kinda poo-faced when I realized I may never find one. So, during my time off I went to New York and got one of the best historic document forgers to forge me up one of those 1911 contour survey maps with GHR drawn on it just the way I think that Francis land swap happened and when. It will put this entire issue to rest once and for all and will become the final factual cog in this era of Merion's architectural history. With any luck no one will ever figure out it's a forgery, or at least I hope no one ever does because the Goll-danged thing sure did cost me some pretty sheckles.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

David and Tom will tell you that you don't even understand your own forgery.

It is kind of interesting that MCC can't find any of its plans, when it does have its minutes.  Do we think some gca buff managed to steal those out of the files long ago for his own personal collection?  Or were they taken out "temporarily" for writing various histories and articles and never returned for whatever reason, like theft, damage, etc.?

[TEPaul]

"TePaul,
David and Tom will tell you that you don't even understand your own forgery."



Jeffrey:

I don't need to understand my own forgery. The only thing that's important is for me to get Bryan Izatt to admit it measures out perfectly using Google Earth's "historic GCA measurometer" to prove my theory of both when and how that Francis land swap thing happened. And even if it doesn't measure out perfectly, I will bribe him to say it does. Everybody has their price, Jeffrey; everybody has their price.

It has cost me a good deal already to perpetuate this story that Hugh Wilson designed Merion and that he was one of the great American architects. But I only need enough to believe it, not necessarily everyone. I look at this conspiracy of mine with Merion's archtiectural history sort of the way Papa Joe Kennedy looked at buying the US Presidency for his son Jack. He said; "Jack, I will buy you the Presidency but I don't need to buy you a landslide."

[John_Cullum]

TePaul,

David and Tom will tell you that you don't even understand your own forgery.

It is kind of interesting that MCC can't find any of its plans, when it does have its minutes.  Do we think some gca buff managed to steal those out of the files long ago for his own personal collection?  Or were they taken out "temporarily" for writing various histories and articles and never returned for whatever reason, like theft, damage, etc.?

Keep an eye on  ebay for unscrupulous profiteers

[Mike_Cirba]

I smell "Shroud of Turin II".  

[TEPaul]

"I smell "Shroud of Turin II"."



Well, why not? Seems like we have everyone else thrown in there as a "not impossible" designer of Merion East so why not throw Jesus Christ in there too?  I don't think he had any previous architectural experience but it seems like he had a lot of natural talent for it anyway plus he must have been danged familiar with sandy-soiled sites.



Alright, that's enough gaiety for a single day. I'm going over to Merion G.C. with Wayne and the Boys and practice shanks.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

What is the evidence that Wilson and all of the others but Francis were on the Merion Green Committee in January 1910?

Also, who do you think the remote Puppet Masters were directing the Titans of Industry on the Merion Committee in games of pick-up sticks across the new property as they laid out many golf courses on the ground prior to their visit to NGLA the 2nd week of March 1911?   Why do you think these remote Experts couldn't make up their minds?

Tom Paul,

What facts do you have to indicate that Jesus was called a golf expert by any of the newspapers in 1910?   Would you say he was more of a foreign born professional, or an amateur already experienced in laying out...oops...designing..golf courses?

[Jeff_Brauer]

So Merion had an "Immaculate Creation?"

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
What facts do you have to indicate that Jesus was called a golf expert by any of the newspapers in 1910?"



Let me get back to you on that in a couple of weeks after I've had a chance to consult with my expert New York historic document forger. No, belay that; I don't like the sound of "expert New York historic document forger"-----let's call him my expert New York historic Document DOCTOR! I might even call him Doc-Doc for short.

The only other thing I can think of, at the moment, is whether or not to give him some design attribution for Merion East too.



Hey, before I take off for the day, week, month or year, I have an even better idea to bring this nonsense to an end. How about if I can negotiate with Merion to get them to give Moriarty and MacWood some 1910 and 1911 design credit and attribution? If I can pull that off then they could both write some really cool "In My Opinion" pieces on here about how Macdonald and HH Barker influenced their design thinking.

Mike and Jeffrey, would either of you like me to negotiate some Merion East design attribution for you when I'm over there? How about anyone else on here? Just email me about it, the email is at the bottom of the post.

[Mike_Cirba]

If only JC had an HJ Whigham trumpeting his achievements, we'd have learned the true story a long time ago, I believe.

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