[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

They refer to the amount of seed to apply to the roughs in one of the first letters.

The early letters also speak of spreading manure and lime indiscriminately at 10 tons and 2 tons to the acre respectively,

That the plan evolved later to put more on the fairways and greens sometime after April 1911 and an approved final routing is not surprising at all but this certainly wasn't his expressed intent in early 1911 for either he or Oakley.

I'd also point out again that Wilson wrote that essay in 1916 specically at P+Os request particular to a book on Agronomy.

Continued attempts to make it appear that this was the only focus of what he did at Merion East are laid hollow once the reader realizes that Wilson is merely talking about mainly construction and grassing because that is all he was asked to write about for the book.

Mike
I could understand why yesterday you insisted Wilson and Oakley were treating the entire property, rough and all. But surely after reading Wilson's own account from 1916, your mistaken undetstanding has been corrected. Clearly their focus was on preparing and treating the fariways and greens, and the letters tell us that processs began in late March and early April.

In order to treat fairways and greens, fairways and greens must be indentified, and in order to indentify fariways and greens you must have a routing.

[Bryan Izatt]

Following is an updated version of the time line.

When		What		Source
Mar. 15, 1907		Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Company (PALCO) incorporated.		Pennsylvania Department of State
Feb. 21, 1907		Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Co. (PALCO) acquire the Johnson Farm from Gebhard Fecht for $48,000.  This is the beginning of the assembly of the 338 acre HDC development.		Deed
Jun. 14, 1909		Haverford Development Company (HDC) was incorporated with $100,000 par value.                                                       Subscribers: J. E. Tatnall (68 shares) J. R. Connell (66 shares) E. W. Nicholson (66 shares)		Pennsylvania Department of State
June 24, 1909		Haverford Development Company (HDC) acquires 67 acre Connor Estate from Land Title and Trust Company.		Deed
Jun. 10, 1910		Sometime before June 10, Joseph Connell, on his own account, retains H. H. Barker to inspect the Haverford property, sketch the  property and provide a rough lay-out of a course.  On June 10, 1910, Barker inspected the property and submitted a letter, sketch of the property and lay-out of the course to Connell.		A transcription of Barker’s letter to Connell is included in report by MCC golf site search committee to the Board
Jun. 29, 1910		Sometime before June 29, Griscom invites Macdonald and Whigham to come over from New York to give the benefit of their experience.  On June 29, Macdonald writes to Lloyd giving his view of the merits and issues with the property and his ideas on a 6,000 yard course.		Report by MCC golf site search committee to the Board and Macdonald letter
Jul. 1, 1910		The MCC Site Committee reports to the Board that its attention has been called to an approximately 300 acre tract, half owned and half optioned by a Syndicate represented by Joseph Connell, that they considered for the golf course.  (At this time, the Syndicate through PALCO and HDC own the Johnson Farm and the Connor Estate respectively, totalling 207 acres.  The remaining properties that comprise the 338 acre HDC development, are the Dallas Estate, the Davis Estate and the Taylor estate, totalling 135 acres.  There is no information yet available about which of these properties were optioned at that time.  Clearly the half owned vs  half optioned statement appears to be incorrect.)[/color)		Site Committee report to the Board
Jul. 1, 1910		The site committee reported that Connell had offered (presumably some time before July 1) 100 acres, or whatever would be required to lay out the course for $825 an acre.   The 100 acres would cost $82,500.		Site Committee report to the Board
Jul. 1, 1910		The site committee further notes that they think it is probable that nearly 120 acres would be required for Merion’s purposes and that if it could be obtained at not exceeding $90,000, it would be a wise purchase.		Site Committee report to the Board
Jul. to Nov. 1910		Merion and HDC negotiate the land deal for the golf course		Inferred from the original offer in July and the securing of 117 acres in November.
Oct. 31, 1910		Rothwell buys the Dallas Estate from the executors of the late David Dallas’ will, for $21,020.		Deed
Nov. 9, 1910		Rothwell sells the Dallas Estate to HDC for $1 and subject to a mortgage of $14,020.		Deed
Nov. 9, 1910		Haverford Development Company sells two parcels totalling 4 acres of the Connor Estate back to the Land Title and Trust Company for $25,000.		Deed
Nov. 15, 1910		Lloyd solicits MCC members to buy HDC stock up to $150,000 to enable purchase and development of a 338 acre tract.  He describes the 338 acres as being comprised of 5 tracts and says the will be acquired in the future.  The 5 tracts are: Johnson Farm  140 137/1000 ac. Dallas Estate    21 ac. Taylor Estate    56 ac. Davis Estate      58 ac. Connor Estate   63 ac. (north of College, 67 ac. in 1908, but two plots totalling 4 ac. sold to Land Title and Trust Co. on November 9, 1910) Total                338 137/1000 ac. In this time frame, PALCO owns the Johnson Farm and HDC owns the Connor Estate, while the Dallas Estate has just been purchased a couple of weeks before by HDC.  The Taylor Estate and Davis Estate appear to have been under option.		Lloyd letter to MCC members.
Nov. 15, 1910		Some time before November 15, MCC secures 117 acres at $726.50 an acre, or $85,000 for the golf course and reports it to the membership on November 15.  In his 1916 essay in P&O’s book, Wilson says that MCC purchased 125 acres of land		Allen Evans letter to the MCC members.
Nov. 15, 1910		In Evans letter, it is stated that a plan of the property is attached showing the 117 acre Golf Course property.  (But, the plan of property shows a Golf Course property that measures out to 122 acres, not 117.)		Allen Evans letter to the MCC members.
Nov. 15, 1910		Contemporaneously with securing the 117 acres for the golf course Lloyd also reportedly secures an option on an additional 13 acres bringing the total for the golf course to 130 acres.		Two newspaper stories from January 1911.
November 15, 1910		In the letter from Allen Evans to MCC members, attached to the Lloyd letter referred to above, of the same date,   it is noted that the $85,000 price is a good deal made possible by the action of certain members of the Club, who, with others, not members of the Club, have acquired  (which contradicts the attached letter, which says they will acquire) a tract of 338 acres, under the name of Haverford Development Co.  This property adjoins the grounds of Haverford College, between College Avenue and Ardmore Avenue, directly on the Philadelphia and Western Railway, with a station at either end of the property - a plan of the property is enclosed.		President Allen Evan's November 15,1910 letter to the membership
Nov. 1910		Tom P. reports that there was an exchange of letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC optioning the 117 acres for the MCC golf course.		Tom Paul’s report of letters between Nickelson of the HDC and president Evans of MCC
Nov. 27, 1910		Tom P. reports that there was a letter sent from Cuylers to Lloyd suggesting he take the 161 acres of the the Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate into his own name to make it esier ti adjust boundaries.		Tom Paul’s report of a letter from Cuylers to Lloyd
3rd week of Dec. 1910		Cuylers gets the MCC Golf Association Company set up with officers, with a certain amount of stock and registered.		NA
Dec. 16, 1910		161 acres comprised of the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate was transferred from HDC to a man by the name of Rothwell  for $1.00.		Reflected in a deed dated Dec. 16, 1910.
Dec. 19, 1910		Three days later Rothwell transferred the 161 acre property to Lloyd.		Reflected in a deed dated Dec. 19, 1910
Still under debate		The land now covered by fine homes along Golf House Road was exchanged for land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long---the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee.		Francis reminisces in 1950 US Open Program
Jan. 6, 1911		HDC acquires the 56 acre Taylor Estate		Inferred from Deed
Jan. 1911		Construction Committee formed and Wilson appointed to chairmanship in January 1911.		Inferred from first known activity of the committee on Feb. 1, 1911
Feb. 1, 1911		Wilson writes to Piper stating that MCC have purchased 117 acres of land.  He also states that he has sent a "contour map", under separate cover, to Piper		Wilson/Oakley letters
Feb. 2, 1911		Haverford Development Company acquires 58.097 acre Davis Estate from J. Lewis and Carrie Davis.		Deed
Second Week of Mar. 1911		“Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different golf courses on the new ground, they went down to the National course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening going over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard to golf courses. The next day we spent on the ground studying......" "On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans.		MCC Minutes, April 19, 1911
Apr. 6, 1911		On April 6th, Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day… “		MCC Minutes, April 19, 1911
Early April 1911		Wilson writes to Oakley that they are beginning to plough and do rough work on the course.		Wilson/Oakley letters
Apr. 19,1911		Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange.………….. and the purchase of 3 acres additional for $7,500 ( we have always referred to as the P&W railroad property  ……..  but the club wouldn't actually buy that land from the P&W Railroad ……. until over a half century later)		Thompson's board resolution
July 1911		Golf House Road is completed.		Inferred from Deed
July 19, 1911		HDC reacquires from Lloyd, the 41 acres of the Johnson Farm left after MCCGA took their 99 acre part.		Inferred from Deed
Jul. 19, 1911		Lloyd transferred 120.01 acres of his 161 acre Dec. 21, 1910 deed back to Rothwell who transferred it to the MCC Golf Association Company the same day.  The purchase is encumbered with a mortgage of $85,000.		July 21, 1911 deed

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

I believe you are correct in your interpretation of blueprint.

Also, I have no problem with David's cites as far as what Tom relayed previously except to note as I told you previously that Tom's thinking evolved around the three acres mentioned in the Apr 1911 board meeting that it says they agreed to purchase for 7500 dollars and I'm in agreement with his new interpretation.

On the other hand, I can tell you definitely that neither Tom nor Wayne have any interest in sharing any additional info with anyone on this site now that it's become a sideshow targeted to embarrass them and I wouldn't even think of asking either of them.  I assure you, and Tom and Wayne, that there is no attempt on my part to embarrass them or to create a sideshow.  I, for one, find it doubtful that M&W "approved" the final plan rather than "approved of" meaning liked best.  I thought perhaps on reconsideration that Tom might rather have used my interpretation of liked.  In any event, short of the minutes that describe the event, this point will remain debatable anyway.

So, if the goal was to get rid of any dissenting voices here, we're almost there. 

Last, I believe in Jeff's theory, or a slight variation of it and believe the triangle as part of the Johnson Farm was always part of the land and that it only needed to be widened.

I believe the additional 13 acres considered was land across from the clubhouse that they looked at for tennis and other sport activities but quickly discarded the idea once they began trying to route the golf course in Jan 1911.  Are you now accepting that there was a 13 acre option?  Perhaps tennis was the reason that area was never considered for the golf course, but I'm wondering with MCC around a mile away with a fabulous tennis facility, why they would even consider building another one at the golf course.  Would most of the Merion members retain their MCC memberships as well as obtain the new golf membership?   I also believe that the 3 acres approved for purchase was the Francis Swap were those three acres west of the working approximate boundary on the 1910 Land Plan.  Sorry to be so annoyingly persistent, but what three acres specifically?  And why would they have to buy them when Lloyd already owned them as part of the 161.  And, to be even more annoying, you still haven't answered where you think the 117 acres where specifically.  I, at least admit that I don't know, because there is no record.  Could you admit that you don't know either?

That is the only conceivable scenario where Francis would have needed Lloyd's approval.

[Tom MacWood]

Bryan
The 1/11/1911 date for the formation of the Wilson committee comes from Jeff Brauer, who said he got it from TEP. TEP has always maintained the minutes do not metion the formation of the committee, or mention the committee at all. I believe Jeff was mistaken. Wilson said the committee was formed early in 1911.

Wilson said in his 3/27 letter that plowing and rough work began.

Wasn't there a brief quote associated with Cuyler's 12/21/1910 letter or report? Something about adjacent land?

IMO the sending of the contour map or blue print is worth mentioning.

[Peter Pallotta]

Bryan - thanks very much for post 2501, and your excellent work there. "Merion for Dummies" as it were....next year's biggest seller.
Peter

[Bryan Izatt]

Niall/Bryan
If you believe the blue print is a blank contour map on what date (approximately) do you believe it became a real plan?

Tom,

I think you calling it a blank is misleading.  It was likely a map of the contours of the property.  That is not blank.  I would guess that the blue  print was a copy of the master contour map that may have been drawn on paper or linen.   Blue  printing was a way to make multiple copies that were strong and waterproof.  The particular blue print (copy) of the contours that they sent to Oakley would never become the final plan of the course, since it was just a copy.  Either they would have used yet another blue  print copy at their location and eventually, maybe, have created a linen version when the final course was approved in April. Regrettably as far as I know no copies of any of the contour maps or blue prints or course designs or plans have been found, so this is yet another debatable point.

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Since I know you'll ask, I'm starting to  think Francis traded "land that was not part of any golf layout" because it was first envisioned to place the lawn tennis courts and sundry activities there for a brief time as the January 1911 Merion correspondence and news accounts related.

Once the course routing started in earnest, however, I'm thinking perhaps they saw that wasn't going to work but still had routed around that area.

I also think it would have been hard to justify tennis-front properties to Connell, or perhaps they could not agree on the same low price for another 13 acres.

How much did LLoyd pay again per acre for the 161?   The grant price was $1.  The property was encumbered with 3 mortgages totaling $184,000, which works out to $1,142 per acre.  Which, of course, doesn't match with any of the other per acre prices.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan
The 1/11/1911 date for the formation of the Wilson committee comes from Jeff Brauer, who said he got it from TEP. TEP has always maintained the minutes do not metion the formation of the committee, or mention the committee at all. I believe Jeff was mistaken. Wilson said the committee was formed early in 1911. I understand that Tom.  That's why I changed it to "there about".  And the source attribution is Tom.  With those two caveats, it makes just as much sense to keep it this way as to change it to "early 1911".  If we ever get to see the minutes and confirm or deny Tom's date then I would change it.

Wilson said in his 3/27 letter that plowing and rough work began.  I think it says that they are "starting this week", which I think means they hadn't started when he wrote the letter.  The April 8th letter says they are starting "next week".  I interpreted that to mean that perhaps the weather or something else interfered in the week of March 27th and that they didn't really get started until mid-April.  Do you read this differently?

Wasn't there a brief quote associated with Cuyler's 12/21/1910 letter or report? Something about adjacent land?  I don't recall one, but if you find it let me know.

IMO the sending of the contour map or blue print is worth mentioning. OK, I'll add it.

[Rich Goodale]

Jeff/Bryan,

Here is a view of their Cricket Facilities in 1930.

Mike

That is probably the Merion Cricket Club, but those are tennis courts, not "cricket facilities."  Prior to the advent of "Open" Tennis in 1968(?), the Pennsylvania Lawn Tennis Championships held at Merion was one of the elite tournaments of the amateur game, being possibly the key grass tournament leading up to the US Championships when they were held at Forest Hills.

r

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

If plowing makes little sense in early spring, bringing out the horse and scoop to move earth in December or any part of winter makes less sense. Even to this day, modern earthmovers don't start work in that area in winter.  If the ground is frozen, you compact the ice and it costs you more time later, and usually, its just too wet to move around, finish, etc.

Jeff,

Living in Texas probably explains why you think December in Philadelphia is frigid.
January and February are the cold months.
They even play football outdoors in Philadelphia in December.

Daytime high temperatures probably average about 36 degrees in December of 1910, and surprisingly, 44 degrees in January of 1911.

Saying that golf course construction started in Dec-Jan makes no sense. 

It does in the context of December 1910 and January 1911.

Saying it started before they had the land legally and finally acquired in Dec. 1910 makes no sense. 

I don't agree with that in the context of the way things were done in 1910-1911 and in the context of the circle of participants.

I even think the records show that construction started in April, 1911, which is still normal to early for golf construction to start in Philly.


I think the records indicate that February and March were unseasonably moderate as well.

Based on that common sense and knowledge, I think it is HIGHLY unlikely that your theory of a golf course in existence anywhere other than paper is correct.

Not in the context of the weather in Philadelphia in the last quarter of 1910 and the first quarter of 1911.

[Niall C]

Niall
One would presume they had a finalized working drawing that they followed as they constructed the golf course. My question to you is on what date (approximately) did they finalize that working plan?

Tom

To answer you're question, I've really no idea on dates. I'm really only commentating here from the sidelines as I've no information on Merion other than what gets posted on these threads, and even then I don't even attempt to keep up with everything that does get posted given the volume. Therefore my comments should be read in that light.

On your presumption that some sort of finalised plans were used in the construction, I think you are probably correct as they were instructing a contractor as opposed to using in using labour such as greenkeeping staff to build the course (I think I'm right in thinking that but someone please correct me if I'm wrong). For contractual reasons the club via Wilson or whoever would want to give the contractor precise instructions, and plans would be the obvious way to do it. Thats not to say the plans weren't produced or altered as they went along.

Hopefully a working architect with some restoration experience might be able to chip in here, as they might have experience of looking at working documents of that time.

Niall

Can I suggest that it would be of benefit to this discussion if we could persuade an architect who has  

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Another thought on the the blue print/contour map.  In the Feb 1 letter, Wilson mentions it, and then says that Piper could use it to identify what "sections" they should draw soil samples from.  Doesn't sections have some significance in real estate terminology.  Seems to me I recall David saying something about it in his explanation of the back forty some time ago.  In any event, Wilson didn't say to tell him from which fairways or greens that they should draw samples of soil and sod, but rather from what sections.

 

[DMoriarty]

. . .These days the term blueprint is often used in reference to the content, be that in plan form or written form. It would be quite wrong to put a modern interpretation on the use of the term.

Niall

"Modern interpretation?"  Maybe.  But I am not so sure.   What makes you think the meaning of the term has evolved?   How was it used differently in 1910?

Tom

On your basic point you I think you are absolutely correct, the base plan would be the contour plan which would show the boundary and I would think landmarks also ie. existing roads, burns, clubhouse etc. I would think that in this instance the contour plan would be the base for all the plans produced including the Routing Plan.
. . .

Golf House Road -- the west boundary  -- was built to suit the golf course.  So if this plan included the boundaries and roads, then they had already planned the course.     

Wouldn't you agree that it would be strange to forward a contour map of "the course" without the borders? 

It seems we are stretching here . . . blueprint doesnt mean blueprint,   course doesn't mean course.      I guess it is possible that they were using these words differently than we do, but it would seem that we should at least take them at their face value until evidence is offered that they were using the terms in a manner which to us would be uncommon.

At the very least, these letters should create a strong presumption that there was a course designated on that blueprint, because that is what the letters say.

[Tom MacWood]

Niall/Bryan
If you believe the blue print is a blank contour map on what date (approximately) do you believe it became a real plan?

Tom,

I think you calling it a blank is misleading.  It was likely a map of the contours of the property.  That is not blank.  I would guess that the blue  print was a copy of the master contour map that may have been drawn on paper or linen.   Blue  printing was a way to make multiple copies that were strong and waterproof.  The particular blue print (copy) of the contours that they sent to Oakley would never become the final plan of the course, since it was just a copy.  Either they would have used yet another blue  print copy at their location and eventually, maybe, have created a linen version when the final course was approved in April. Regrettably as far as I know no copies of any of the contour maps or blue prints or course designs or plans have been found, so this is yet another debatable point.

 

Bryan
It wasn't likely a contour map it was a contour map. Wilson referred to it as a contour map in his first letter. Obviously when I say blank I'm referring to the absence of an architectural drawing.

The common use of the word "blueprint" - in 1911, before 1911 and today - is a reproduction of an architectural drawing. Being employed by the Department of Agriculture I'm certain Oakley had seen his fair share of contour maps (originals and reproductions). His choice of the word "blue print" is an interesting one IMO.

[Rich Goodale]

My 1907 edition of the Webster's International Dictionary defines "blue print" as follows, in its entirety:

"A copy in white lines on a blue ground of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper."

To hold Piper, Oakley, Wilson etc. to more contemporary definitions of the word(s) is either disingenuous or deceitful, IMO.

[Tom MacWood]

My 1907 edition of the Webster's International Dictionary defines "blue print" as follows, in its entirety:

"A copy in white lines on a blue ground of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper."

To hold Piper, Oakley, Wilson etc. to more contemporary definitions of the word(s) is either disingenuous or deceitful, IMO.

Rich
Thanks. I have a similar definition in my old 1913 Webster's

"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

Its funny how you missed the second part.

[Niall C]

. . .These days the term blueprint is often used in reference to the content, be that in plan form or written form. It would be quite wrong to put a modern interpretation on the use of the term.

Niall

"Modern interpretation?"  Maybe.  But I am not so sure.   What makes you think the meaning of the term has evolved?   How was it used differently in 1910?

Tom

On your basic point you I think you are absolutely correct, the base plan would be the contour plan which would show the boundary and I would think landmarks also ie. existing roads, burns, clubhouse etc. I would think that in this instance the contour plan would be the base for all the plans produced including the Routing Plan.
. . .

Golf House Road -- the west boundary  -- was built to suit the golf course.  So if this plan included the boundaries and roads, then they had already planned the course.     

Wouldn't you agree that it would be strange to forward a contour map of "the course" without the borders? 

It seems we are stretching here . . . blueprint doesnt mean blueprint,   course doesn't mean course.      I guess it is possible that they were using these words differently than we do, but it would seem that we should at least take them at their face value until evidence is offered that they were using the terms in a manner which to us would be uncommon.

At the very least, these letters should create a strong presumption that there was a course designated on that blueprint, because that is what the letters say.

David

Blueprint was the material or medium, if you like, that the plan was printed on. Equally it could have been printed on paper or linen which were both also common at that time I believe. The point is was making that there was nothing to be inferred from the fact that the contour map/soil sample plan was a blueprint rather than linen/paper.

In has been a good number of years since blueprints were widely used, and I think I'm right in saying that they died out even before the advent of computers. However you still hear the term blueprint and usually these days it refers to some masterplan (either in plan or written form) and it was this interpretation that I thought Tom might have been putting on the term. If not my apologies to Tom. Either way I don't believe this modern usage of the term blueprint was in use back then.

With regards to what else was on the plan sent to P&O, it would more than likely show all existing physical boundaries and landmarks which would include roads etc. It may have even included Golf House Road and any other proposed roads/buildings but then perhaps/probably not. These wouldn't have been required for the purposes of the plan ie. identifying location of soil samples, but might have been on the plan if they were on the base plan. Otherwise why waste time drawing on additional material when its not required for the purposes of that particular plan.

Likewise, the plan wouldn't necessarily need to show the ownership boundaries as long as there was enough info to identify what Wilsdon wanted them to see which presumably was the location of the soil samples and the surrounding contours. 

With regards to the meaning of course and blueprint, I was endeavouring to take them at face value in the context of the time. As for your final sentence, I will have to reread the letters because I nether gained an impression or picked up on any straight reference to the course being shown on the plan that was sent. As an aside, I have seen old plans at 1/1250 and 1/2500 scale where no details of a course is shown but instead simply has the words GOLF COURSE written across it. Was that what you meant by a course being designated on the blueprint ?

Niall

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...I hate myself for stepping in and will have to go back to Step One but...


Niall,

Golf House Road wasn't built until July 1911, five months after the contour map was sent and David knows that fact full well.

Also, there is a 1928 Survey Map of the Merion property on BLUEPRINT in the Merion Archives but only the property bounds and buildings are shown...not a single golf hole.  

Back to rehab...  

[Mike_Cirba]

For fact checkers, the blueprint from 1928 was done by local surveyors Yerkes and Co..

[Andy Hughes]

[Rats, I had Mike lasting until at least 6 PM this evening...He is far weaker than I thought!  ]

[Mike_Cirba]

Andy…you can flog me mercilessly on the golf course this coming Saturday morning.  



Because Bryan Izatt has been so spectacularly helpful and consistently objective (even if a crazily stubborn defender of LIFS ) throughout this thread, I do feel it’s appropriate of me to answer his final "annoyingly persistent" questions.   This is what I sent to Bryan via IM…


Bryan,

You asked me;

"Are you now accepting that there was a 13 acre option?  Perhaps tennis was the reason that area was never considered for the golf course, but I'm wondering with MCC around a mile away with a fabulous tennis facility, why they would even consider building another one at the golf course.  Would most of the Merion members retain their MCC memberships as well as obtain the new golf membership?"  

Bryan,

I don't believe Merion ever did anything more than talk about a possible 13 acre option, but I believe the point became moot in December when Lloyd purchased the whole 161 acres.   I think at that point it's clear they had "secured" 117 acres for the golf course (which legally meant a gentleman's agreement, or agreement in principle that they would purchase from HDC 117 acres for golf at a fixed price), and since I also believe not much was done in terms of routing or planning of the course (which would begin next month), I think both Cuyler's legal advice and Lloyd's acting on it are clearly indicative that they felt they needed maximum flexibility going forward for both the golf course as well as any other land they might decide on trying to buy outright for Lawn Tennis, Skating, etc.

This was not a "new golf membership".   Remember, at the time, there was no separate Cricket Club and Golf Club.   That didn't happen until the 1930s.     If you were a member of MCC, you had all the amenities for cricket, tennis, golf, etc., at your disposal, but those who selectively participated in things like golf may also have had some special fees or assessments attached to their membership to fund new land acquisitions, etc..  Also, there HAD been a golf membership all along, since back in 1896 playing their old course.

I have no idea if fabulous tennis courts existed at the Cricket Club in 1910.   The fact is we DO know they were considering them for the new property, even announcing they would be built on the new property in January 1911.   We also know they take up some serious room as those photos demonstrate.  


"Sorry to be so annoyingly persistent, but what three acres specifically?  And why would they have to buy them when Lloyd already owned them as part of the 161.  And, to be even more annoying, you still haven't answered where you think the 117 acres where specifically.  I, at least admit that I don't know, because there is no record.  Could you admit that you don't know either?"

Because ultimately, and although he acted as the Rabbi and middle-man, Lloyd himself was NOT Merion, particularly as a legal entity.   Merion was several hundred members.   The original 117 acre "securing" of land needed Board Approval, and Board approval would have also been needed in April to "secure" (promise to purchase for a fixed price) the additional 3 acres, prior to ultimate purchase of 120 acres in July.  

As I mentioned, I believe in Jeff's theory and believe that the 122 acres drawn on the 1910 Land Plan was simply a working boundary.   I don't find it a coincidence to note that there are 3 acres that fall outside (to the west) of that boundary.   I believe that the plan in November was to work the golf course within that boundary down to 117 acres and give back what they didn't use and that's what got approved.

I think that come the end of the month, they still weren't so sure, and some members started asking where they were going to put lawn tennis, and bowling, and all that stuff so to give them max flexibility, they just had Lloyd grab up the whole 161 acres, although the board of governors had still only approved the future purchase of 117 acres specifically for golf at that time.

Only, once Francis and committee started actually doing the work out there and routing the course, the breadth of the quarry and the decision to build an alternate fairway around it required them to "work outside the lines", or to the west of what had been drawn up originally.   THIS is what I believe is the Francis Swap.   This is why I believe he needed to go to Lloyd...to see if Lloyd thought perhaps it might be possible to grab some of the acreage previously determined for real estate and give back some of the land originally planned for golf...in effect, altering the structure and shaping of the proposed road, which was much more smooth, curvilinear, and aesthetically pleasing as originally drawn on the 1910 Land Plan than what in reality was built and exists to this day.  

So, that's what I believe happened.  They approved and "purchased" 3 additional acres, although it seems Lloyd massaged the deal so that they just got 120 and not 117 acres for the 85,000, and plans for other activities on the site eventually got abandoned, probably because every acre for fun and sports was one less acre for profit and increasing value for everyone.

Thanks again, and please feel free to copy this onto the site.   In fact, I'd ask that you would, as I have now exhausted this to my satisfaction, and am comfortable with my understanding of events, and unless new evidence surfaces in the future, I'm dropping out of further discussion on the topic.

Best Regards,
Mike

[Tom MacWood]

Regarding the term "golf course", over here in the UK that refers to everything within the boundary of the course bearing in mind that the vast majority of courses in the UK are self contained and without any housing inbetween fairways etc. In other words just like Merion. I have read nothing different in newspaper articles and writings of the time that suggests it was any different back then.

With regards to when a golf course becomes a golf course, I don't think it is uncommon regarding new courses that once the site is identified, secured and going forward that it is henceforth referred to as the "golf course". Again I don't think anything has changed over time.

Niall
The same is true over here. The entire property is often referred to as the golf course, and its not unusual to refer to a planned or staked out course as the golf course either. However it is unusual to refer to a virgin unplanned parcel of land as a golf course. I don't recall ever seeing the term used in that way. Can you cite any examples? It is usually referred to as land or property or site. Those were the terms used by Barker, Macdonald, Lesley and the newspaper articles prior to December 1910.

Here are some samples of how Wilson used it:

February 1, 1911 Wilson to Piper "If by chance you are coming up to Philadelphia, I sincerely hope that you will look us up, for it would be a great opportunity for us to take you out to the Course and have a chance to talk the matter over with you."

February 8, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I sincerely hope that you will get up to Philadelphia and if you do, please let me know a day or so in advance and I will arrange to take you out and go over the course with you....at present about half the Course has very fair turf, and the other half has been used as a corn field."

March 13, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I have just retuned from a couple of days spent with Mr. McDonald at the National Golf Course. I certainly enjoyed having an opportunity of going over the Course and seeing his experiments with different grasses. He is coming in a couple of weeks to help us with some good advice, and we had hoped that you would be up before this and have delayed sending you samples of the soil on that account. I expect to get them this week, however, and will forward them to you. Mr. McDonald showed me several pamphlets in regard to grasses and fertilizers, and I will be very much obliged if you will send me nay that you think would help us out on the New Course,"

March 14, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am sending you under separate cover samples of soil taken from the new Merion Course. I am also sending you blue print showing the locations from which the samples were taken."

March 23, 1911 Oakley to Wilson "I think the whole course needs liming...I judge, however, that this feature [putting greens] of the course is not the important one at present time, and that you are mostly interested in getting the fair greens in playable condition."

March 27, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "If you will let me know a day or two before you come to Philadelphia, I will arrange to go out the Course and go over it with you."

April 5, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am very glad that you are coming up to Philadelphia and will go over the Course with us"

May 9, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "Many thanks and kindness yesterday in going over the Course with me and answering so many questions."

May 10, 1911 Oakley to Wilson "I certainly enjoyed my trip with you to the new golf course Monday, and am only sorry that I did not have more time to go into the various phases of the work.

June 15, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I am enclosing you copy of a letter from Mr. Macdonald. Mr. Beale who, as you know, is the grass expert of Carters & Co, spent an afternoon with us and I told Mr. Macdonald to have him talk freely and criticize the Course in any way he possibly could."

July 11, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I want to talk these matters over with you and hope that you will be able to get up pretty soon and look over the Course. It is quite a different proposition than when you last saw it."

September 20, 1911 Wilson to Oakley "I enclose some grass and will be obliged if you could tell me what it is. It looks to me like a good thing to plant on the sides of the Course." (the fairways and greens were seeded between 9/1 and 9/15)

[Andy Hughes]

Andy…you can flog me mercilessly on the golf course this coming Saturday morning

While I would enjoy playing together, there is certainly nothing I could do to you that would come close to your self-flagellation on the Merion threads.  

[Rich Goodale]

My 1907 edition of the Webster's International Dictionary defines "blue print" as follows, in its entirety:

"A copy in white lines on a blue ground of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper."

To hold Piper, Oakley, Wilson etc. to more contemporary definitions of the word(s) is either disingenuous or deceitful, IMO.

Rich
Thanks. I have a similar definition in my old 1913 Webster's

"Blue print, a copy in white lines on a blue ground, of a drawing, plan, tracing, etc., or a positive picture in blue and white, from a negative, produced by photographic printing on peculiarly prepared paper.<-- also blueprint. Long used for reproduction of architectural drawings, now also applied to an architectural plan of any color, and thus (Fig.) a plan, or outline of a plan of action."

Its funny how you missed the second part.

Tom

There is no second part in my 1907 dictionary.  Whigham must have had the 2nd sentence inserted in the 1913 version once he realised the importance of the Oakely/Piper/Wilson correspondence..........

Rich

[DMoriarty]

On the other hand, I can tell you definitely that neither Tom nor Wayne have any interest in sharing any additional info with anyone on this site now that it's become a sideshow targeted to embarrass them and I wouldn't even think of asking either of them.  

Let's be honest Mike.   TEPaul and Wayne have never stopped participating.   You've been posting their information in their supposed access.   Did the sudden change in the Cuyler date come to you in a dream?  How about the numerous third hand explanations and clarifications and backtracks you have posted for TEPaul?  Did you make those up?  

As for TEPaul and Wayne being embarrassed, they should be.  But they have done this to themselves by playing games with the source material, and by making claims that they cannot back up.  No one can deny that.    But I have no need or desire to embarrass them unnecessarily, so as soon as they come clean and stop playing games with the source material, and as soon as they back up their claims with facts, then we can let bygones be.  

After all, the ones keeping these issues relevant and in the forefront.  As long as they continue to act like spoiled children with the source material their behavior will remain an issue.  I will not drop this until I have had a chance to vet and rebut the spurious claims that they have made about me and my essay.  I am entitled to at least this.  

______________________________________________________________________________

Bryan Wrote:
I, for one, find it doubtful that M&W "approved" the final plan rather than "approved of" meaning liked best.  I thought perhaps on reconsideration that Tom might rather have used my interpretation of liked.  In any event, short of the minutes that describe the event, this point will remain debatable anyway.

Bryan,  I don't get this?   You asked for quotes from TEPaul and I gave you a handful and they are consistent in their use. In each one, he has Macdonald and Whigham approving the plan.  He even wrote that they selected the plan.    He even notes that it was "more than possible" that they even made substantive changes to the plans they reviewed, thus necessitating that a substantively different plan than the five went to the Board.  

Also, TEPaul supposedly read the passage to Shivas, and Shivas latched on to the fact that CBM had approved the plan and in particular to the word "approved."   So I think we can safely assume TEPaul's supposed transcription says that they approved the plan.  

Have you seen something I haven't that makes you believe that M&W did not approve (or select) the plan as TEPaul has repeatedly claimed?   TEPaul and Wayne already selectively dole out information, surpressing most of what might hurt them.   Are we to supress the information he has given us when it might cut against him?   Doing so would only extend the charade.


Here again is how TEPaul put it:
. . . Macdonald/Whigam returned to Merion for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over their plans and went over the ground and stated that they would approve of a particular plan as they felt it contained what would be the best seven holes of any inland course in the world! . . . Macdonald also suggested . . . that Merion should acquire that 3 acres behind the clubhouse which belonged to the P&W railroad . . . it is more than possible, although definitely not certain, that none of the five Merion plans on that day in April included that P&W land and that in fact may’ve been an architectural or conceptual suggestion that Macdonald/Whigam made on their own   . . .  Within two weeks, the plan that Macdonald/Whigam said they would approve of was taken to the board and considered and approved and that was the routing and design plan used to create the original Merion East.

TEPaul:
They only presented one plan after consulting with Macdonald/Whigam on that single day in early April 1911 about which the Wilson report (to the board) says Macdonald/Whigam approved the plan that they (Macdonald and Whigam) described as having a last seven holes equal to any inland course in the world.

TEPaul:
What we do know is the Wilson Committee report says that before visiting NGLA they had laid out many different courses and following their visit to NGLA the Wilson Committee then went home and rearranged the course and laid out five different plans. Then approximately three weeks later Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day (April 6, 1911) and went over the grounds and looked over the plans and said they would approve the plan they felt contained a last seven holes that were the equal to any inland course in the world. The report says the Wilson Committee sent that particular plan to Lesley and the board.

Quote from: TEPaul on September 09, 2008, 09:23:30 PM
Then with the day back at Ardmore on April 6, 1911 at which time Macdonald and Whigam looked over their ground again and what they had done with it with their final five plans and then they got them to approve one of their five plans they'd done since returning from NGLA which they took immediately to their board and had it approved and then proceded to build it.

Quote from: TEPaul on June 18, 2008, 05:25:03 PM
In early April Macdonald and Whigam came to Ardmore for a single day and went over the plans created by Wilson and his committee, they toured the grounds, they then selected one of those plans that they described as containing the best last seven holes of any inland course in the world (later reported in the newspaper). The committee gave that plan to the board and it was approved and construction began.[/i]

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