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Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2075 on: July 01, 2009, 07:29:39 AM »
Bryan.

Actually, your batting average is only ..400 pct as the other article from Nov 24th I found amd posted previously that mentioned they had secured Barker to do the layout, contrary to Merion;s records, also only mentions 117 acres.  I'm truly beginning to wonder how many of these stories were planted by HDC and or Lloyd to try and gain advantage during negotiations.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2076 on: July 01, 2009, 07:32:59 AM »
Phil,
With all respect to you and Tom, we had this discussion about 2 years ago and 90 pct of the courses named weren't even opened by June 1910.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2077 on: July 01, 2009, 07:37:57 AM »
Bryan,

How would you explain the fact that the 130 acre theory timeline appears to indicate that Merion simultaneously had aquired the "triangle" as indicated by the Nov 15, 1910 Land Plan while retaining option on the 13 acres you contend was traded for the triangle?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2078 on: July 01, 2009, 07:40:08 AM »
Mike,

The answer you gave was for Tom as he feels strongly about Barker's reputation at the time. I am actually somewhere between your view and his. I don't think he was considered as important and influential as an architect as Tom Does, but I do feel he was far more so than you do.

Actually, the question I asked about Lloyd I think is important. If he was on the Board of Governor's of Merion and HE brought in "Barker" then it would appear that your view of both how he was viewed at the time in general and by the men at Merion is incorrect.

It doesn't change the actions that followed and the work of Wilson & the Committee.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2079 on: July 01, 2009, 07:51:06 AM »
Phil,

That news account, which I've since posted, has several facts completely wrong, not the least of which is that Lloyd brought in Barker, which is irrefutably contradicted by the club records that make very clear he was brought in by Connell of HDC.

As I wrote above, among the facts that this news article has completely wrong are;

Then, finally this one (in two parts), which also mentions 130 acres, but which gets wrong the total acreage of HDC's holdings (350) the price per acre Merion paid ($3000) , the source of Barker's involvement (Lloyd), hyperbolizes the price of a recent adjacent land deal ($8000 per acre).


Also, I'm frankly finished with the Barker discussion unless some new evidence surfaces.

As indicated in a series of emails to Jeff Brauer and me the past few weeks, Tom was equally unconvincing in his new theory that it wasn't CBM at all, but that somehow Barker came back in Dec 1910 to route the course.

Perhaps we should all just leave the discussion and leave Moriarty and MacWood here to battle out their now competing anybody but Wilson myths?  ;)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 11:21:18 AM by MCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2080 on: July 01, 2009, 08:02:33 AM »
Phil.

What changes at Garden City does Tom want to deduct from Travis and credit to Barker?

Barker was pro there at the time...is this architectural osmosis?

Also, Travis also told us he designed Pinehurst 2 and truly I believe saw an opportunity for guys like himself and Barker in the south as both men would annually spend their winters there.

I'm sure they were friends and I'm also sure he saw where Barker could supplement his modest professional's income.


Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2081 on: July 01, 2009, 08:11:23 AM »
I'd also simply add, yet again, that Alan Wilson specifically stated that Merion did not use an architect, and with the exception of M+W's valuable advice, did the architecture themselves.

Once again, Tom's latest conspiracy theory assumes everyone who was there at the time and still alive thru this period was lying.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2082 on: July 01, 2009, 08:22:20 AM »
And Phil...while I like Tom and respect his research a great deal, I'm less enamored and impressed with his analytical abilities and his penchant for selective sources that fit his theories while summarily discarding contradicting info.

For instance, sometime during the Burbeck debates I mentioned that HB Martin's 1936 "50 Years of American Golf" wrote how proud Tilly was of Bethpage.  Tom's response was simply that Martin was wrong on other matters too.

So that's what I'm dealing with in trying to discuss these things with Tom, who seems to have a predetermined goal of rewriting history.

In any case, unless he has more evidence re: Barker, I'd prefer not to re-debate what we argued two years ago and again in a recent spate of email to me and Brauer, only this time with you serving as proxy.

Thanks for your understanding.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 10:28:39 AM by MCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2083 on: July 01, 2009, 09:21:41 AM »
That Connel brought in Barker isn't the question...It is whether or not Lloyd was INVOLVED in Connel's bringing in Barker.

This debate has considered many areas of "common sense" within its arguings on all sides. That the ground be inspected "before the deal was consummated" as the article states is an example of this type of common sense reasoning.

It would also seem reasonable that the man who the article(s) state purchased the land, Mr. Lloyd, would give this direction, in this case to Mr. Connel. The statement that Lloyd had the ground inspected by Macdonald, Whigham and Barker isn't contradictory; rather it probably is what happened and that Connel asked these three for an opinion at the behest of Lloyd.

Did Lloyd specifically say "Get me Macdonald's, Whigham's & Barker's opinion" I am not saying. I am ALSO not saying that NO ONE at Merion even mentioned Barkers name.

There is more than meets the eye on this very small microcosm of the Merion story and it has NOTHING at all to do with who would do the final routing and design of the golf course.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2084 on: July 01, 2009, 10:48:59 AM »
Phil,

As relates to the aquiring of Barker's services, Merion's official documents indicate;

"Mr. Connell, on his own account, obtained from H. H. Barker, the Garden City professional, a report, of which the following is a copy:"



Tom MacWood, who also now thankfully and finally has come to the understanding that there is no way that the factual evidence supports the creation of a routing of Merion prior to November 1910, has come up with a new "Anybody but Wilson" theory that Barker came back to Merion in December 1910 for a day and routed the course.

Without wanting to speak for Tom, he bases this theory on the following;

1) The November 24, 1910 article I found that states Merion has secured Barker's services to do the layout.  Of course, the same article has a byline of Lakewood, NJ and isn't supported by anything else, much less club internal records or the fact that those records clearly state that the committee worked on multiple plans for the course with M&W's help after that time.



2) The Cuyler letter of December 1910, in which Cuyler acting as legal representative of the club advises that Lloyd take title to 161 acres under his own name so that he can move boundary lines because there is no "definite course" at that time.   Rather than use the term definite in its proper legal real-estate definitiion of "within set or determined limits", he interprets it to mean that a golf course existed already.

3) A December 1, 1910 NY Times article that states Barker is leaving to lay out some new courses.   Of course, this ignores the fact that Barker left for the south every winter {where he would be assigned to a club, play winter tournaments, and was beginning to layout some courses}., and was playing in a tournament in Atlanta a few days later, and also is credited with laying out some courses in the south during that time.   Mr. MacWood argues that because the train line to Atlanta ran through Philadelphia, Barker must have stopped at Ardmore for a day to route the course and move on .

Of course, the fact that there is not a single mention of hiring Barker or any word of his routing exists in the Merion minutes does not deter him in the least, nor does the subsequent discussion and report to the board in April 1911 that tells the real story of who actually did the plans, routings, and who helped them.  


Re: our debating which courses were opened that Mr. Barker designed as of June 1910, the following is copied from an exchange between Tom and I a year ago when I asked him which courses were open and available for play that Barker designed;


Mike
In the south or nationally? Nationally, courses Barker designed or redesigned that opened in 1909-1910 (that I know of today) would be CC of Viriginia, Waverly, Spokane, Newport, Columbia, Rumson, Skokie and Springhaven. I'm certain some of these courses opened before May and some after May. Arguably his most famous design was under construction in 1910 ~ Mayfield. Mayfield's moto was "beat Myopia."



Tom,

Thanks for the information.   I don't want to take this thread too far off-track, but what I'm hoping to better understand is exactly how well known Barker might have been as an architect by June 1910, which courses would have made his reputation at that point, and possibly why his proposed routing was seemingly not considered.    

As you know, some of these dates are tricky, because a design might be done in one year and the actual course didn't open until 2-3 years later.   So, in this case, I'm trying to see what he actually had built "on the ground" that was open for play by that date.

Of the courses you listed, I understand that Waverly had an existing course from 1896, so I'm assuming it was a re-do, and Spokane didn't purchase their land until 1910 so I'm assuming these two courses didn't much figure into the thinking of anyone at MCC.

In New Jersey, Barker did the routing for Arcola in 1909, but the course didn't open until 1911.   In the case of Rumson, this is another perplexing one, because an existing course was being played in 1910 (formerly Seabright CC), and Barker became the pro there in April 1911, after apparently leaving Garden City.    It's difficult to determine who did what when there.

I'm guessing Skokie was also a re-do, as a nine-hole Bendelow course existed in 1904, and I don't believe it became 18 holes until Ross came in the teens.   Am I understanding that evolution correctly, or did Barker have a larger role?

Two I haven't been able to determine the timeframe on are his work at CC of Virginia (where i know he was the professional before leaving this country in 1915), and Newport, where again a nine holer existed (by Willie David) previously, and the standard story is that Ross then turned that into 18 later.   Any info you can provide on those would be helpful.

The one course I think might have an MCC connection is Springhaven.   In early 1910 it was reported that Barker had been consulting with the club and had recommended the addition of fifty bunkers to the course, which the club said they would build as soon as weather and logistics permitted.  

Still and all, do you think it would be fair to say that Barker was probably better known for his playing abilities and the fact he was the pro at the famous Garden City club at this point (June 1910)  than for any architectural achievements, most of which came later in the south?

Thanks...this is indeed interesting to explore, and I had no idea previously that he was so prolific.   I'm just trying to determine the actual timeframe of his achievements and how that related to how the MCC Committee might have viewed him at the time.



Mike
I'm not interested in turning this thread into another Merion thread.



Tom,

I think it's fundamental to ALL of our discussions of US golf architectural history to accurately determine;

1) How many courses built before NGLA opened were architecturally worthy or renowned as such.  I contend that was very, very few.

and

2) How many "professionals" and other "experts" were actually known to be golf course architects by 1910, or whether they were known more as top amateurs, foreign-born professionals, and dabblers into all things golf from agronomy to clubmaking to their golfing contemporaries throughout the country at that time.   I contend the latter.

When it's stated that;

"According to Tom MacWood, Barker’s other designs include Country Club of Virginia (Westhampton Course,) Waverly Country Club in Oregon, Spokane Country Club, Rumson Country Club, Columbia Country Club (1910), a remodel of Detroit Country Club, Mayfield Country Club, Country Club of Asheville (NC), a remodel of East Lake Country Club, Youngstown Country Club, Raritan Valley, Arcola, Brookhaven, Druid Hills (Ga), Winnetka (with H.S. Colt,) Roebuck Country Club, a remodel of Newport Country Club, Palm Beach Country Club, Westhampton (Long Island, with Seth Raynor.)   He also had reportedly planned or remodeled three courses in or near Philadelphia. "

I think it's important to our accurate historical understanding of events to determine accurately when all of this actually took place, because courses like Columbia didn't open until 1911.

I think this is the crux of where we disagree on quite a few matters.   If you wish to blow me off here, that's ok too and I understand.



« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 11:13:53 AM by MCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2085 on: July 01, 2009, 11:06:45 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for the explanation on Connel. That makes a lot of sense.

Phil

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2086 on: July 01, 2009, 11:18:00 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for the explanation on Connel. That makes a lot of sense.

Phil

Phil,

Are you responding to me or Tom?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2087 on: July 01, 2009, 11:20:30 AM »
Sorry about that Mike! I meant it for you. I had just sent him an email and his name was stuck in what is my sorry excuse for a brain!

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2088 on: July 01, 2009, 11:24:56 AM »
Sorry about that Mike! I meant it for you. I had just sent him an email and his name was stuck in what is my sorry excuse for a brain!

Phil,

Trust me, I am in the exact same boat!!    :-\ ;)

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2089 on: July 01, 2009, 11:33:34 AM »
Not that I'm wanting to go down the Barker path, but the question that struck me about Connell getting Barker on his own account, was that retaining him must have happened before July 1910.  Was Connell a golf man in any way?  Anything that I've seen on him is about his real estate expertise.  If he wasn't a golf man, how would he have known of Barker, and that he was an architect, and who was apparently then at GCGC?  Is it possible that MCC suggested him, and Connell agreed to pay for him to try to help sell Merion on the land?  Common sense?

 

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2090 on: July 01, 2009, 11:43:48 AM »
Not that I'm wanting to go down the Barker path, but the question that struck me about Connell getting Barker on his own account, was that retaining him must have happened before July 1910.  Was Connell a golf man in any way?  Anything that I've seen on him is about his real estate expertise.  If he wasn't a golf man, how would he have known of Barker, and that he was an architect, and who was apparently then at GCGC?  Is it possible that MCC suggested him, and Connell agreed to pay for him to try to help sell Merion on the land?  Common sense?

  

Bryan,

Barker was in Philadelphia already for the June 1910 US Open he played in at Philadelphia Cricket Club.   I don't know if Connell played golf...he wasn't a member at Merion...but he certainly did seem well-connected.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2091 on: July 01, 2009, 01:42:59 PM »
Bryan.

Also, I asked this a while back and didn't catch your response.

Does the entire Nov 1910 Land Plan measure out at 338 acres?

Thanks!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2092 on: July 01, 2009, 02:00:06 PM »
Mike,

I remember that question and am pretty sure the answer was yes...Bryan seems to post at night so I thought I'd jump in...I'm pretty confident he did answer you a few weeks ago.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2093 on: July 01, 2009, 02:04:10 PM »
Mike and Jeff,

The context of the January article allocating 117 to Merion and 13 in an option to Lloyd does not preclud the possibility that the swap was for the triangle because it is quite likely that the article was several months dated with some of it's facts...how would the writer know about the midnight bike ride by Francis if the swapped land was all within the 161 Lloyd was going to buy anyway?

In fact, the specific date of most of this information seems anywhere from one to six months delayed from the actual event taking place...three or four months seems to be a reasonable grace period from a decision/event happening to a reporting of it.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2094 on: July 01, 2009, 02:26:32 PM »
Tom Macwood,

If your contention is that Wilson would never have been chosen by the Merion leaders because they were choosing the best in the business in each endeavor results in a conclusion that Barker must have done the routing and hole concepts, I have to ask...why was he around so little, if at all.

Is it honestly your contention that he got off a train from New York City to Atlanta for a day, two at the most, and this lack of attention was going to pass muster with the people that were only settling for the best?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2095 on: July 01, 2009, 02:32:12 PM »
Mike and Jeff,

The context of the January article allocating 117 to Merion and 13 in an option to Lloyd does not preclud the possibility that the swap was for the triangle because it is quite likely that the article was several months dated with some of it's facts...how would the writer know about the midnight bike ride by Francis if the swapped land was all within the 161 Lloyd was going to buy anyway?

In fact, the specific date of most of this information seems anywhere from one to six months delayed from the actual event taking place...three or four months seems to be a reasonable grace period from a decision/event happening to a reporting of it.

Jim,

The several months lag you speak of is not correct or consistent with the items these articles reported on.

The actual written offer for 117 acres from HDC to Merion wasn't even sent until early November 1910.   They asked that Merion give them an answer by early December.

I'm not sure where you're seeing up to six months lags in reporting of any of this?    

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2096 on: July 01, 2009, 02:34:46 PM »
I am not saying there were six months lag before the first mention of anything, but when those articles speak of CBM looking over the site, it does not mean it just happened the day before...as an example, the January 1911 article mentioning the 13 acre option for Lloyd was written after he had taken 161 acres into his name...are you suggesting that the 13 acres was in addition to 161?

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2097 on: July 01, 2009, 02:40:07 PM »
Bryan,

Believe me, I know I'm neither a mathematician or a statistician.

I guess in thinking about it, I'm trying to figure out the odds of;

Given a value of 338 total acres, and a known subset of 122 acres, what are the odds that a single added value less a single subtracted value equals a known value of 120 acres?

In my example, because the triangle land measures at 4.8 acres, I rounded off to 5 acres and for discussion purposes called it an even swap, or said another way...

Given a value of 338 total acres, and a known subset of 122 acres, and a maximum total of 5 acres swapped both to and from, what are the odds that the total equals a known value of 120 acres?  The odds calculator I used answered 1 out of 41.

You had mentioned you believed that they traded 5 acres for 14 acres, so I ran a similar calc which yielded a much higher result.

I guess in theory the answer could be any value up to 120 acres on either side of the transaction, but the reason I selected 5, or 25, or whatever the number might be, is to put a realistic max possible swap on the calculation so as to be realistic in what they were likely dealing with.

Does that make any more sense?  

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2098 on: July 01, 2009, 02:43:33 PM »
I am not saying there were six months lag before the first mention of anything, but when those articles speak of CBM looking over the site, it does not mean it just happened the day before...as an example, the January 1911 article mentioning the 13 acre option for Lloyd was written after he had taken 161 acres into his name...are you suggesting that the 13 acres was in addition to 161?

Jim,

Two things...

The mention of Macdonald almost certainly came directly from the July 1, 1910 Site Committee report that was attached to the November 15th Bond Solicitation to membership.

You can tell because of the mention of Garden City and Myopia, as well, as well as Barker.

However, the larger issue settled with that document was the securing of 117 acres that is clearly spelled out.  

Also, I'm starting to believe that the article I said was from January 1911 is actually from November or Dec 1910 and was mislabelled by Wayne.    He has a number of items labelled 1-1911a, b, etc., but I know for certain some are not from that date.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:46:38 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline, or Jeff Brauer Unties The Gordian Knot!
« Reply #2099 on: July 01, 2009, 02:50:48 PM »
Fair enough...I guess my point is that making final pronouncements based purely on one specific article seems wrong...you were challenging me as to the triangle's existence in 1910 and the potentially new boundary (southern edge of Haverford College going straight west) still in existence in 1911...my point was that the 1911 article date does not pin down the ladn trading to that date.

Jeff also flipped when I suggested both things couldn't be true, but it seems you are now moving towards a more likely scenario.

Question: If it were proven that they were initially looking at 130 acres with Lloyd holding 13 of them in an option and the northern boundary was the extension of the southern boundary of Haverford College, would the presence of a triangle on the 11/10/1910 Plan prove to you that the Francis Swap occurred prior to November 10, 1910?

Admittedly, the drawn triangle does not fit the final version, but it's presence along with the word "approximate" would seem to make it indispputable IF the 130 acre story is proven...agree?

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