[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, the 1910 plan was not a deed.   While Mike Cirba deems it a "legal document" created by legally legal surveyors, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean."





The Nov. 15, 1910 plan that was sent out to the MCC membership is nothing more than a proposed plan delineating various boundary lines to a total of 117 acres that would go towards the creation of a golf course, and eventually to be transfered to the MCC Golf Association Company. The remainder of the plan shows a proposed residential development. It’s a simple as that. That Nov. 15, 1910 land plan is in no way any kind of legal document, just a proposed plan for MCC and it’s members to consider along with a potential real estate development next to it.

But who came up with the details of the configuration of those lines between the proposed golf course and the development that appear on that Nov. 15th 1910 land plan?

Actually, MCC contemporaneous records tell us exactly who did----Connell for HDC and Lloyd representing MCC. It was done in what MCC referred to as a number of conferences between Connell and Lloyd and which was reflected in a letter to MCC from Lloyd which I do not believe we’ve ever seen.

The whole thing was sort of a win/win/win for everybody. MCC would get golf land for one half the per acre cost basis to the developers. Lloyd would get to control the entire juxtaposed environment and viewshed of his new dream estate (The Garden Club of America and architecturally famous “Allgates” on Coopertown Rd. just north and west and across the street from the HDC proposed real estate development and Merion East course which he bought in 1910 and moved into in 1912. I believe Mrs. Lloyd was the president of the Garden Club of America), and the developers would make out too because Lloyd and Connell also negotiated a 72% per acre increase on the remainder (221 acres) of the HDC land there that was left after the parceling out of 117 acres for MCC the club. I believe Lloyd and his so-called MCC syndicate also took control of HDC by recapitalizing the stock of HDC and selling it out for stock appreciation and/or real estate ownership. And Lloyd and his syndicate were definitely in no hurry either as the residential land would still be building out 10-15 years later. He obviously wanted a sort of beautiful utopia around him and he would get it.


But what does that have to do with this thread and the Francis land swap and when it happened? Nothing really, this is just background on how it evolved to that point and will very likely show us when that Francis land swap idea took place and how the club did it and when and that the Francis land swap did not create that entire triangle.

[DMoriarty]

Jim
I hope you realize that Mike Cirba's representation of my position has nothing to do with my actual position.  Nor does he even come to accurately representing what he pretends to represent?  Why does he have the first tee in it's current location?  Why doesn't his blue box extend to the first hole?  Why cut of off where he does?  But even if he got this right it would still not accurately reflect the land they had to work with before the land swap.

They hang their hat on the Approximate location of the road as being set in stone but this defies the plain language of the plan.  

They also trip themselves up with their own logic.  They say that the 1910 map shows the exact dimensions of the land before the swap, whether 95 yards or 120, you can fit the course probably as is, and if not then very close to as is.  They had room to move the 16th tee east, and some room between the two.   So why any swap at all?   Francis only makes sense if they couldn't fit the course onto the land.  While it is easy to see how they might have had this problem without the corner,  it is hard to see how they would have had this problem with it even as shown on the 1910 plan .  

[JESII]

But what does that have to do with this thread and the Francis land swap and when it happened? Nothing really, this is just background on how it evolved to that point and will very likely show us when that Francis land swap idea took place and how the club did it and when.

Tom,

Will it show us when the land swap occurred?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Will it show us when the land swap occurred?"


Sully:

Not really but I can't imagine how anyone will fail to see how it will show us the date BEFORE which it could NOT have occured.

[JESII]

Tom,

Consider me dense, but is there any reason to think that whomever enlisted the professional surveyor to produce that 11/15/1910 Land Plan suggested certain dimensions for the triangle created by the "approximate location of the road"?

[Mike_Cirba]

David.

The fist 13 holes were already planned and that included the first hole.

Please feel free to draw your own map of what land remained for the final 5 holes.

I'll be happy to watch anyone try to route five solid holes on it with a single par three.

And yes, the first was a dogleg left then so feel free to use any available land on the inside of that dogleg.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

As I said,  the area Mike is using isn't an accurate reflection of anything.  (Except perhaps his own inability to even follow his own argument.)

1.  The whole point of the swap was because they were having trouble making the course work without using the extra corner.
 
2.   This would not have been a problem had they already had the corner, even as shown in the 1910 plan.

3.  I guess mike is intent on proving they really  needed to swap

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Please let's see an accurate representation if I've misrepresented the land that was left after the first 13 holes were routed according to your theory.

Is this the land boundaries Macdonald and Whigham recommended they buy and the land on which you think M+W were trying to route their course?

If so, why do you think they were so shortsighted to only recommend the purchase of 65 yards beyond the quarry?

Surely they realized that the only hole you could get up in there was a par three and they'd already used up one of those on 13?

Were they drinking heavily perhaps?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Consider me dense, but is there any reason to think that whomever enlisted the professional surveyor to produce that 11/15/1910 Land Plan suggested certain dimensions for the triangle created by the "approximate location of the road"?"



Sully:

I have no idea if anyone suggested certain dimensions for the triangle created by the "approximate location of the road." But I think we can be certain that someone told the Pugh and Hubbard surveyor who did that Nov. 15, 1910 proposed land plan for the club and the real estate development what to do with the road to create 117 acres for the golf course with the remainder (221 acres) of the 338 acres total going to the real estate development.

But who the hell knows, maybe at that early point (Nov 1910) they only told the surveyor to delineate about a 1000 yard road in some way that dimensionally WOULD end up creating a 117 acre parcel. Maybe he just drew the thing simply so it would create 117 acres with one parcel (the proposed golf course) and 221 acres with the other parcel (the proposed development). We sure do know all they had to work with was 338 acres because the Lloyd coorespondence and the MCC records say as much a number of times.

We know from MCC records that Connell and Lloyd negotiated the 117 acres for golf and 221 acres for the development---eg actually the whole financial arrangement both ways was predicated on that. The MCC records mentioned that. But when that was done and presented to MCC at some point before Nov. 10th noone said a thing about an actual layout and hole designs having been done at that point. It just seems like they sort of felt comfortable they had enough land to layout a course at that point when the committee who was going to do it got appointed. I'm sure Lloyd and MCC felt that way because back in June Macdonald and Whigam had told MCC that on seemingly considerably less land than 117 they could probably get a good course if it wasn't more than 6,000 yards (at that point I doubt the 21 acre Dallas Estate was actively considered by Macdonald/Whigam or they probably would've mentioned it as they did the 3 acre railroad land).

So I believe the very same boundary configurations that show up on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan with the proposed road drawn on it that was 117 acres was the very same total configuration they had their topo contour maps made off of and the very same configuration that was taken well past Lloyd's purchase of THAT land (the 117 acre configuration off that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan) and more----Lloyd actually bought 161 acres on Dec. 15, 1910.

So my point here is if that Francis land swap took place BEFORE Lloyd bought that land on Dec. 19. 1910 (The Missing Faces of Merion essay claims that triangle was entirely created BEFORE that Nov. 15, 1910 plan was drawn BECAUSE that triangle shows up on that Nov. 15, 1910 land plan ) WHY in the world would Thompson's Resolution at the April 19, 1911 board meeting be asking the board to approve an exchange of land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining the 117 acres that Lloyd had purchased for them on Dec. 19, 1910 IF Lloyd had ALREADY DONE that with Francis BEFORE he even PURCHASED the land?? IF THAT WERE THE CASE then there never would've been a need for MCC's board to consider it and vote on it.

And furthermore there would've been little point in Cuyler's letter of Dec. 21, 1910 telling MCC's president that Lloyd had taken the land into his own name for the very purpose of moving boundaries around AFTER his purchase of the land to be eventually turned over to MCC.

This was the only land swap ever mentioned by MCC and the 4/19/11 minutes confirm that it happened AFTER Dec. 19, 1910 and not BEFORE Nov. 15, 1910 because the resolution said land ALREADY PURCHASED! The point is that triangle had been there ever since Lloyd and Connell negotiated a proposed land plan which got drawn on a Nov. 15, 1910 land plan by professional surveyor Pugh and Hubbard to go before MCC.

Francis's idea had nothing to do with CREATING that triangle that they eventually felt was too narrow. Of course The Missing Faces of Merion essayist couldn't have known any of that because it wasn't until yesterday that I noticed that Thompson's resolution actually said LAND ALREADY PURCHASED!

It's obviously from all this that in 1910 nobody was actively working on a layout and design plan for Merion East or at least nothing that could be considered anything like a final plan. That would not happen until the Wilson Committee was appointed in the beginning of 1911 and as Wilson's report to the same 4/19/11 board meeting says they got to work doing numerous courses and ultimately five different plans. Again, if there had been somethng in 1910 even remotely like a final plan why in the world did Wilson and his committee do so many courses and plans in the winter of 1911?

Don't worry Sully, I have no doubt at all the essayist will try to come up with some other fallacious reasons to try to make a semi-credible point that this is all inaccurate somehow too. It should be interesting to see. Or perhaps more likely though since even he may be out of explanations is he will just revert to accussing me of being insulting and attacking his reputation or some such additional claptrap!

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,  Interesting theory, but I am pretty certain it is incorrect.    But no use me telling you the problems.  You guys know it all anyway, right?

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

In your post above you wrote:

"in 1910 nobody was actively working on a layout and design plan for Merion East or at least nothing that could be considered anything like a final plan."

That's sure a lot of words to write in order to avoid writing "they had no draft plan."    Why don't you tell us what you know about the working plan they had in 1910?

[DMoriarty]

"Mr. Thompson offered the following resolution:
                                     Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange. Resolution approved"
One more question.  What did you leave out after adjoining?   

"other land adjoining . . ."

[TEPaul]

1.           April-May, 2008. David Moriarty’s essay “The Missing Faces of Merion” contends that the Francis Land swap occurred before Nov. 15, 1910 due to the fact a Nov. 15, 1910 land plan shows a triangle in the northern corner of that Nov. 15, 1910 plan. Essay claims the Francis land swap created the entire triangle due to the interpretation by the essayist of the UNAMBIGUOUS MEANING of a part of Francis’s story, that he wrote thirty nine years after the fact, about the land swap that described the dimensions of the triangle his idea created in its entirety.

That’s a FACT. That essay is on the “In My Opinion” section of this website for about a year!


2.            DEC, 19, 1910; The date of the transfer of the 117 acres into the names Horatio G. Lloyd et ux for MCC that would become the majority of the world famous Merion East golf course; Reflected in a deed dated Dec. 19, 1910.

That is a FACT. That deed has been in Merion G.C.’s archives for years as well as in the Recorder of Deeds in the County seat.


3.       April, 19, 1911 MCC board meeting minutes.

                         "Mr. Thompson offered the following resolution:
                                     Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land ALREADY PURCHASED for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange. Resolution approved"


That’s a FACT. That Thompson MCC meeting minute RESOLUTION that reflects the Francis land swap idea and gains formal MCC approval for it at the April 19, 1911 MCC board meeting had been residing in the attic of MCC for almost a century. Found less than a year ago by Uber Merion architectural historian and Merion member Wayne "The Pissboy" Morrison and friends.


4.       May 14, 2009. TEPaul contends on GOFLCLUBATLAS.com’s Discussion Group that one does not come up with an idea for the first time and run it by someone else for permission on a date that is already five weeks at least, and perhaps more like five months in the past.

That’s a Fact! See posts by TEPaul on “My Attempt at a Timeline” thread by “Philadelphia Syndrome” vice president, Michael Armaggedon Cirba.


5.      May 15, 2009. “The Missing Faces of Merion” essayist finds out about this for the first time and rather than recognizing the fallaciousness of his contention about the Francis Land Swap in his essay and admitting it allows as this is all an INTERESTING THEORY but it is probably INCORRECT for some reason, probably because the person who told it to him is rude and uncooperative towards him as the essayist constantly demands access to private club material from this person rather than rely on that person's opinion of what the material says and means.


6.      1915-1918.  Albert Einstein develops his Special Theory of Relativity, a part of which concludes that if a microscopic particle of matter such as a Quark travels faster than the Speed of Light time actually reverses.

That is apparently a recognized scientific FACT.


7.      2009-2010.  GOLFCLUBATLAS’s Discussion Group argues with “The Missing Faces of Merion” essayist for a year and a half and throughout 98 pages of threads as the essayist contends that, IN HIS OPINION, it is a FACT that Richard Francis MUST BE a QUARK and capable of traveling faster than the speed of light so that he can in fact reverse time and have an idea for the first time for a land swap and get permission for it on a date that is anywhere from five weeks at least to five months IN THE PAST!




Now THAT is what I would call A REALLY INTERESTING THEORY!!!

[DMoriarty]

"Mr. Thompson offered the following resolution:
                                     Whereas the Golf Committee presented a plan showing the proposed layout of the new golf ground which necessitated the exchange of a portion of the land already purchased for other land adjoining...Resolved that the board approve the exchange. Resolution approved"



What did you leave out after adjoining?   

[TEPaul]

"But no use me telling you the problems.  You guys know it all anyway, right?"




At this point, I would say pretty much----pretty much. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom Paul,

Stop being so damned accurate and unenlightened!

[TEPaul]

"Why don't you tell us what you know about the working plan they had in 1910?"


NO PROBLEM AT ALL. I would be DELIGHTED to tell you ALL of what I know about the working plan they had in 1910, and by that I mean every single little juicy factual detail right on down to the color of Richard Francis's crypton boxer shorts on March 29th, 1911when he whizzed back in time to a date before Nov. 15, 1910 and had his brilliant idea and got permission for it from a sauced up H. Gates Lloyd that night around midnight!


I've never heard about such a thing from Merion or anyone I've ever known or heard of at any time connected to Merion or the creation of Merion East back then.

[DMoriarty]

Great.

Then you won't mind filling in the missing pieces from the Cuyler letter.  And you won't mind telling us what comes after "adjoining . . .

[TEPaul]

Wait a minute! Excuuuuse me. I did hear something about THE working plan they had back then in 1910 for Merion East. I heard about it from this crackpot yahoo-like essayist from California who at first admitted on here he really didn't know that much about the history of Merion, had been there maybe one time but then allowed as how he was convinced there were pieces of some puzzle he thought existed about how Merion inaccurately created an architectural icon and idol out of their young novice architect, Hugh I. Wilson. He claimed the club and its friends were conducting some kind of an on-going campaign to minimize C.B. Macdonald's influence in routing and designing the course and to disregard the fact that Macdonald was the "driving force" behind world famous Merion East. He also claimed that his expert friend in Ohio told him H.H. Barker who was arguably the second best architect in America at the time, right behind Macdonald, may've created the Merion East routing too.


I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to withold information----not even for a minute. So, yes, I did hear about THE working plan they had back in 1910 for Merion East. There were even two guys from MCC (Francis and Lloyd, as I recall) who actually reversed time and went back into 1910 and even BEFORE they'd been appointed to the Wilson committee that would be charged in the beginning of 1911 with designing the course and those two quark-like guys did a lot to help out Macdonald and Whigam and Barker while the future chairman of their committee sat on his ass doing nothing other than perfecting his extreme Novicehood.

[DMoriarty]

Wait a minute! Excuuuuse me. I did hear something about THE working plan they had back then in 1910 for Merion East. I heard about it from this crackpot yahoo-like essayist from California who at first admitted on here he really didn't know that much about the history of Merion, had been there maybe one time but then allowed as how he was convinced there were pieces of some puzzle he thought existed about how Merion inaccurately created an architectural icon and idol out of their young novice architect, Hugh I. Wilson. He claimed the club and its friends were conducting some kind of an on-going campaign to minimize C.B. Macdonald's influence in routing and designing the course and to disregard the fact that Macdonald was the "driving force" behind world famous Merion East. He also claimed that his expert friend in Ohio told him H.H. Barker who was arguably the second best architect in America at the time, right behind Macdonald, may've created the Merion East routing too.


I'm very sorry, I didn't mean to withold information----not even for a minute. So, yes, I did hear about THE working plan they had back in 1910 for Merion East. There were even two guys from MCC (Francis and Lloyd, as I recall) who actually reversed time and went back into 1910 and even BEFORE they'd been appointed to the Wilson committee that would be charged in the beginning of 1911 with designing the course and those two quark-like guys did a lot to help out Macdonald and Whigam and Barker while the future chairman of their committee sat on his ass doing nothing other than perfecting his extreme Novicehood.

[TEPaul]

"One more question.  What did you leave out after adjoining?"


Immediately after "adjoining..." in the Thompson resolution that was approved I left out the part about the app. 3 acre purchase of what we refer to as the "railroad land" for $7,500 and the payment of annual real estate taxes. Was that part of the Richard Francis Land Swap idea? I didn't realize that---SILLY ME!

That purchase was approved on 4/19/11 at that board meeting but the club wouldn't actually buy that land from the P&W Railroad (affectionately known by them as the "Pig and Whistle") until over a half century later and when they did buy it over fifty years later they got it for $11,000 for a over half century price appreciation of a staggering 46.6731%

Pretty damned clever of those "Captains of the Universe" don't you think?  


If you would care for my cooperation on the actual wording following "adjoining" you will have to start a thread on here about all the reasons why you alone on here have been making constant demands for years on a private club's member and friends for their private records and discuss to my satisfaction why noone should do that and certainly why you should never do that again.

[TEPaul]

"Great.
Then you won't mind filling in the missing pieces from the Cuyler letter."




I won't? Really? Why didn't I know that? You're telling me all kinds of things I've never known tonight even though I vaguely recall telling you at least a half dozen times already on this very thread that's not going to happen unless you start a thread about demanding access to a club's private records and discuss it publicly to my satisfaction.

[DMoriarty]

If you would care for my cooperation on the actual wording following "adjoining" you will have to start a thread on here about all the reasons why you alone on here have been making constant demands for years on a private club's member and friends for their private records and discuss to my satisfaction why noone should do that and certainly why you should never do that again.


Again Tom, I think we need to clarify here.  I haven't made any demands of Merion or MCC.    I've made demands of you.

As to why I am the only one making these demands, can you think of anyone else (other than MacWood) who you have constantly attacked for over a year based on mysterious source material that only you were allowed to see?  I can't.

The reason I have made demands of those who have ceaselessly attacked my essay, my intelligence, and my character for the past year or more, yet have refused to back up their attacks with the facts they claim exist.  That isn't Merion or MCC.  That'd be Wayne, you, and Mike Cirba.   And while you may be friend of Merion, and Wayne is a member, my demands are only of those of you who have talked the talk for a year, but have thus far refused to walk the walk.

My demands are for nothing more than what the most basic civil discussion requires.  You came after me with claim after claim, insult after insult, and now it is my turn to vet and answer your claims, or vet and accept them, but either way vetting them has to be part of the process.  

I don't think I ever asked Merion for a thing prior to my essay.  I don't think I ever demanded a thing from you guys until after you guys started using the material to undermine my essay and my character.  

Imagine if I got access to someone's old diary, like Hugh Wilson's, and claimed the person who gave me access was very private and didnt want the information out there.   But then went ahead and cherry-picked tidbits out of the diary to attack your positions and to build up my own.  Not only that but imagine I also used the information to repeatedly attack and insult you, your character, and your intelligence.  What would your response be?   Somehow I doubt you would simply take what I was telling you at face value.  I also have a feeling you'd demand that I back up my claims.

But do you really want me to post this (and more) in its own thread.  

Your games are not only disrespectful to me, they are disrespectful to anyone else trying to get to the truth.  And that you are using the clubs' records to play your games is very disrespectful to the clubs as well.

Start a thread and I will glad to cut and paste this in it, and I'll add a few things as well.

I won't? Really? Why didn't I know that? You're telling me all kinds of things I've never known tonight even though I vaguely recall telling you at least a half dozen times already on this very thread that's not going to happen unless you start a thread about demanding access to a club's private records and discuss it publicly to my satisfaction.

See above.

And Tom, you've just started demanding I start a thread.   In the past you've said you would, or that we need to discuss it in a public forum.

I guess that you couldn't figure out a way to gracefully start your own thread about something so petty and manipulative as this.  Given that you have put yourself in the role of speaker for these clubs, you really ought to behave better. 

[Bradley Anderson]

"One more question.  What did you leave out after adjoining?"

If you would care for my cooperation on the actual wording following "adjoining" you will have to start a thread on here about all the reasons why you alone on here have been making constant demands for years on a private club's member and friends for their private records and discuss to my satisfaction why noone should do that and certainly why you should never do that again.

This quote instills the concerns that I had when I first read The Missing Faces. I just knew that what I was reading could not be true because of how incredible everything else would have to be in order for it to be true. A club like Merion just can not come in to existence without a lot of people, living in those times, knowing the details of how it all came to be. And there is no way that even if it's genesis was somehow hidden or opaque to all of those people living then that anyone living today could see what they couldn't.

[TEPaul]

"Again Tom, I think we need to clarify here.  I haven't made any demands of Merion or MCC.    I've made demands of you."



Why do we need to clarify? What is there to clarify? I understand that as you've said the very same thing to me about twenty times on here and I've told you about twenty times the exact same thing about what I think you need to do about those demands you've made of me for years about a club's private records. You can keep asking but what I'm going to tell you won't change. You are the only person on here who's ever made those kinds of demands of me (other than your Ohio fellow researcher occasionally). As much as you've tried to encourage others to do so I have never seen anyone else on here share your opinion on that or your demands. Everyone else interested in this subject seems fine with my opinion of information I have. I see no reason why you shouldn't be the same. If you never feel that way, then that's your problem, not mine.



OR maybe I should just act like your friend from Ohio and just stop helping you out altogether with your interest or understanding of Merion or any other course where I have some information you don't.

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