[Niall C]

I actually happen to agree with Patrick that it is likely that some routing work was being carried out prior to the land purchase, for one thing we know Barker had produced a routing, and I suspect the good folks at Merion either as individuals or as a group were trying to work something up before the committee was formed. I don't think it would take too much of a leap of imagination to think that committee was formed with those who had taken most interest and had already been over the ground.

Where I differ from Partick is that I don't think a finalised routing was required to agree the final land purchase, and that therefore the date of the final purchase of the land doesn't necessarily prove anything with regards routing. I've argued with Patrick in previous posts about this point and we've agreed to differ. What this doesn't do is directly address whether M&W were involved in doing the design. It may knock a hole in Davids theory (as I remember it) but solving the timeline doesn't answer all the questions.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

I actually happen to agree with Patrick that it is likely that some routing work was being carried out prior to the land purchase, for one thing we know Barker had produced a routing, and I suspect the good folks at Merion either as individuals or as a group were trying to work something up before the committee was formed. I don't think it would take too much of a leap of imagination to think that committee was formed with those who had taken most interest and had already been over the ground.

Where I differ from Partick is that I don't think a finalised routing was required to agree the final land purchase,

Niall,

I never stated that a "FINALIZED" routing was requuired.


and that therefore the date of the final purchase of the land doesn't necessarily prove anything with regards routing. I've argued with Patrick in previous posts about this point and we've agreed to differ. What this doesn't do is directly address whether M&W were involved in doing the design. It may knock a hole in Davids theory (as I remember it) but solving the timeline doesn't answer all the questions.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

You're being disengenuous.

You are trying to give the impression that the July 1 report was not part of the November 15 report to the membership. When Wayno and DMoriarty originally posted it on GCA, the November 15 report had the July report as part of it (see the link below).  If it wasn't part of the November report why did every newspaper report at the time quote from Barker's letter (the equal of Myopia or GCGC)?

See the November articles below.

The Macdonald letter was not included in the report. It was alluded to, but they then explain why it was not included.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34272.msg690847/

Here is the way the report originally appeared to the members. In Mike's recent post Mike took out the July portion and put it into chronological in order to make it appear it was not included.  That's dirty pool.

LETTER FROM THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS :

HAVERFORD, PA., November 15th, 1910

TO THE MEMBERS OF THE MERION CRICKET CLUB:
The Board of Governors wish to lay before you a matter which has been given very serious consideration by the Board, and which is of vital importance to the Club.

It is probably known to most of you that the present Golf Course is not owned by the Club, but by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company  and Mr. Clement A. Griscom. For the Railroad property the Club has paid a moderate rental, while Mr. Griscom has generously permitted the use of his ground without charge. This arrangement, while most satisfactory to the Club, is one which, in the nature of things, cannot go on indefinitely, and the Board have long felt the desirability, in fact, the necessity of acquiring a permanent course. Land is being taken up so rapidly, that it will not be long before it will be practically impossible to secure a tract lai Lye enough for a Golf Course, anywhere in the vicinity of Haverford, and even if it could be had, judging by present standards of value, the pi ice would be prohibitive. In the opinion of the Board, the Securing of a permanent Course can best be accomplished through the medium of a separate ,corporation, such as the Haverford Land and Improvement Company, which, as most of you doubtless know, holds title to the main Club House and Grounds.

A Committee was appointed by the Board to secure land. They were instructed to acquire the present property, if possible and failing that, to took elsewhere. It was impossible to secure the present course, as the price at which it could be acquired, was more than the Club was able to pay. The Committee continued their efforts, and reported on several properties. The only property accessible to the main Club House, and  at the same time, one that could be financed by the Club, was reported on by the Committee in July, and a copy of the report is attached hereto. This property adjoins the grounds of Haverford College, between College Avenue and Ardmore Avenue, directly on the Philadelphia and Western Railway, with a station at either end of the property  a  plan of the property is enclosed. In the judgment of the Board, it is an unusual opportunity for the Club, and one that should have the cordial support of all the members.

The Club has secured 117 acres at $726.50 an acre, or $85,000.
This is conceded to be an extremely low price, and was only made possible by the action of certain members of the Club, who, with others, not members of the Club have acquired a tract of 338 acres, under the name of the Haverford Development Co. These gentlemen have sold the 117 acres at less than half the average cost them of the  whole tract They feel that the proximity will then lease the Ground to the Club on practically a perpetual lease, the Club agreeing to pay all fixed charges, consisting of interest, taxes, etc. In addition to the land cost of $85,000, it will be necessary for the corporation to raise approximately $40,000, for the development of the course and improvements to existing buildings, to make them suitable for Club purposes, making the total amount

It is proposed to authorized issue of $125,000 Thirty Year Sinking Fund 5% Bonds, in amounts of $1,000 and $500 each, to be on the property, and further secured by the lease above mentioned, so that the boi ids become in effect, guaranteed by The Merion Cricket Club, which will own the entire Capital Stock of the Corporation.  There will be set aside out of the dues as collected, Three Dollars, ($3.00) per annum for each Golf Member, to form a fund towards the retirement of bonds at maturity. The mortgage will contain a provision for the possible retirement of all the outstanding bonds, at any interest period, after January 1, 1916.

It is necessary at this time to provide a fund of $70,000 by the sale of bonds, to be. used as follows:
1st To repaying the Guarantors the $30,000 advanced.
2nd To provide for development purposes as above stated, $40,000.

Furthermore it is hoped that sufficient subscriptions will be received to take tip the entire $125,000 of bonds and thus pay off the $55,000 first mortgage above provided for.

A blank form of subscription is enclosed, and members are urgently requested to respond as soon as possible. They will thereby show loyalty to the Club, and at the same time, secure what is believed to be and excellent investment.   With a total subscription amount of $70,000; about 50% will be required about December 1, 1910, and the balance in two installments of 25% each in 1911 and 1912. 
   
The Committee having this matter in charge and who will be glad to give any information in reference to the subject are
HORATIO G. LLOYD,
ROBERT W. LESLEY,
SAMUEL T. BODINE,
FREDERICK L. BAILY
EDGAR C. FELTON.
The attention of the members is called to the communication concerning the Haverford Development Co. which is enclosed.

By order of the Board

ALLEN EVANS,
President
___________________________________________________
COPY OF REPORT OF COMMITTEE.


Philadelphia, July 1, 1910.


TO THE BOARD OF GOVERNMENT OF
THE MERION CRICKET CLUB.


Gentlemen :

The Committee appointed to investigate and report on a per¬manent Golf Course for the Club, beg to report as follows :

Among other properties to which our attention has been called, is a tract of approximately three hundred (300) acres, lying west of the Philadelphia and Western Railway, directly west of Haverford and Ardmore. About one half of the tract, we are informed, is owned outright by a Syndicate, and the remainder is under option, the Syndicate being represented by Mr. Joseph R. Connell, and our negotiations have been with him.

Mr. Connell states that if part of this property should be acquired and used as a Golf Course they intend that all houses on the adjoining property shall face the Course.

The property lies a little over a mile from Haverford Station on the Pennsylvania Railroad, and a station on the Philadelphia and Western Railway is about one hundred yards from where the Club House would be located, assuming that the present house, on what is known as the Johnson property, would be used for Club purposes. This house, built of stone, is in good condition, and, while not ]a] ge, would be adequate with the addition of a locker room. There are also other buildings on the place which could be utilized for Club purposes.

Mr. Connell, on his own account, obtained from H. H. Barker, the Garden City professional, a report, of which the following is a copy :

_____________________________
Mr. Joseph R. Connell,


Dear Sir:

Philadelphia, Pa., June 10, 1910.

I today have inspected the property at Haverford, south of College Avenue, where it is proposed to to lay out a golf course: and beg to submit to you my report.

I am enclosing a sketch of the property in question on which I have roughly shown in pencil a proposed lay out of the course. I would say that the land is in every way adapted to the making of a first class course, comparing most favorably with the best courses in this country, such as Myopia and Garden City.

In the past few years I have laid out upwards of twenty (20) courses in this country, and from my experience I believe the proposed course could be constructed at less expense than any I have heretofore gone over. If the work was commenced at once, the course could be ready for play by the fall of 1911.

Very truly yours,

H. H. BARKER,

Garden City, L. I., N. Y.
______________________
 
The Committee, through Mr. R. E. Griscom, were fortunate enough to get Messrs. C. B. Macdonald and H. J. Wigham to come over from New York and give us the benefit of their experience.

These gentlemen besides being famous golfers, have given the matter of Golf Course construction much study, and are perfectly familiar with the qualities of grasses, soils, etc. It was Mr. Macdonald assisted by Mr. Wigham who conceived and constructed the National Course at Southampton, Long Island.

After the visit of these gentlemen Mr. Macdonald wrote to a member of the Committee, expressing the views of himself and Mr. Wigham, as to what could be done with the property.  The report, as made to the Board, embodied Mr. Macdonald's letter, but it was not written for publication.  We do not, therefore, feel justified in printing it. We can properly say, however, that it was, in general terms, favorable, and the Committee based its recommendation largely upon their opinion.

Mr. Connell and his associates fully realize the benefit to the remainder of the property if a first class Golf Course established on the ground and, for that reason, offer one hundred (100) acres, or whatever would be required to lay out the Course, at $825 an acre, which we understand, is about one half the average cost of the whole tract; this offer is conditional upon the property being promptly put in shape for a Golf Course.

It is probable that nearly one hundred and twenty (120) would be required for our purposes, and provided they can be obtained at not exceeding $90,000, we believe it would be a wise purchase.

We particularly desire to impress upon the Board the fact that if this opportunity to acquire a permanent golf course is to be taken advantage of, prompt action is necessary.


Respectfully submitted,

ROBERT W. LESLEY,
HORATIO LLOYD
SAMUEL T. BODINE,
FREDERICK I.. BAILY
EDGAR C. FELTON

Committee

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

In your last two posts you said I was "lying", and "disengenuous".   I think that's absolutely absurd and completely wrong and I consider you a friend so I'm not sure what I've done to deserve such harsh judgement.

There is nobody who has come forward with more research and raw material here....the other day I even told you everything I know about the Cuyler letter, including the "definite" wording that David and Tom MacWood and you had been hoping was a last-ditch shred of evidence that would somehow sway everyone to interpreting that it offered some hint of an some existing course by ANYONE except Hugh Wilson prior to then.

To say I've been hiding things and "lying" is really below you, Patrick.  I'm surprised and disappointed in you.


I presented the letters in the order they were presented to the club, and the order in which they were read by the men in charge.

In July, the BOARD OF GOVERNORS of the club were given the Site Committee's report.  

In November, a solicitation letter went out to general membership.

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL RELEVANCE OR MEANING IF THE JULY 1910 SITE COMMITTEE REPORT (which I presented in total) WAS ATTACHED TO THE NOVEMBER SOLICITATION TO MEMBERSHIP OR NOT??

WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE THAT THE BARKER ROUTING WAS ATTACHED TO EITHER CORRESPONDENCE??

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Again, I'm hesitant to speak for Jeff, but my understanding is as follows.

In November 1910 Merion members were asked to support an effort to "secure" 117 acres for a golf course.  That is incorrect.  The letter said the land was already "secured".  What they asked the members to support was the buying of bonds to pay for the purchase of the "secured" land.   That was obviously approved.  They didn't ask for approval, they stated it was already secured. Brian, Fair distinction.   I should know to be precise by now but it does get tiring typing the same stuff again and again and I'm sure you feel the same.  However, if the members didn't "support" the bond solicitation, what would have happened to the "secured" land?   That's rhetorical...I'm only stating that this was NOT a done deal at that point. The solicitation includes a copy of the Land Plan which although the letter says represents 117 acres, measures at 122 and is labelled "approximate", which means that someone purposefully left that language in.   Why not just put the final boundary on the map if it had been already finalized?? Why say the plan depicts the 117 acre property for the "Golf Course"?  Isn't the answer to both questions - we don't know?We can phrase this however we like but the point is simple; neither the golf course boundary had been finalized or was their any hint of a routing being done by or for the club, much less finalized by November 15, 1910.

At that point they didn't "purchase" anything.

In December 1910, after Merion's counsel Cuyler recommended Lloyd take 161 acres (140 of Johnson Farm and 21 of Dallas Estate) under his name for HDC so that he can move around that "approximate" boundary as necessary to support the demands of the golf course.  You've done excellent work producing the other reports and letters.  It sure would be nice if you could produce the Cuyler letter, so that we can judge for ourselves what it says in context.Bryan, unfortuately due to completely desperate and inappropriate behavior like my being called a "liar" here the last two days, the odds of anyone who has those letters actually giving me permission to reproduce ANYTHING they have spent their good time and efforts researching just because someone here cries that they don't have it is unfortunately very, very, very slim.

They and their research have been the target here all along so let's not pretend that they should be asked to play nicely or even participate here any longer and frankly, if I were a member of Merion or any club and put up with the abuse those guys took here I'd tell all of you to f*ck off, nothing personal intended to you Bryan.

Francis did have his brainstorm.

However, it involved having to work outside the lines!   What he came up with involved moving  portions of holes even further west of that approximate boundary, which is why he needed Lloyd's permission and counsel, and which is the area that falls outside of your overlay past the western border.   THAT is the swap.  If that is the swap, why did he specifically say only that it was 130 x 190?  You've said that it meant that that was the final size of that area, but that's an interpretation on your part, and a fairly large leap.  Keeping on repeating it doesn't make it true.  And, if he was going to be specific about final dimensions, why didn't he mention the final dimensions alonside the 14th fairway and green?I realize that this is the only bit of evidence that is left for those arguing that there had to be some golf course routing prior to November 1910, but we also know that what was drawn on the Land Plan isn't even close to 130x190..it's 100x327.   I'll repeat that I believe Francis was either just trying to anecdotally simplify what was a fairly complex idea overall for a brief magazine article 40 years later, or he just was recalling what they needed in width overall to make those holes fit...not that they bought the WHOLE section.   There's really no need for us to keep having this same disagreement.   I would contend that the fact there is not a single shred of other eviidence pointing to any routing taking place before that time either by or for the Merion Golf Club as enough corroborating evidence that my opinion is the correct one.

The goal all along was to work within the limits of the 117 acres that the club had approved.  The club hadn't approved them, they had secured them, but obviously in retrospect it was only a working number, not a final fixed target. Agreed, except it's important to keep in mind that any land going to the golf course was land unavailable for the more profitable real estate endeavor and that it was a zero-sum game in that regard.

When it came down to it, they couldn't, although they gave back a number of acres of land along that boundary from the 122 or so it was drawn as.   In the end, it worked out to 120 acres which is why they needed the club to authorize the purchase of 3 additional acres in April 1911, for the same purchase price per acre as the rest of the HDC land.  That alone should tell us that they weren't referring to the Railroad land.  That is incorrect.  They approved the purchase of 3 acres that were not described in the snippet of Merion Board minutes that Tom revealed.  And they approved the purchase for $7,500 or $2,500 an acre, which bears no resemblance to the $825 an acre Connell originally offered, or the $726.50 an acre the board "secured" them for, or the $708.33 that they actually paid for them.  The $2,500 price per acre leads me to conclude that it is the RR land, supported by the fact they went out and leased 3 acres from the RR the next month. I'll have to go back and check...you may be correct.

They needed approval to move from 117 to 120 acres.  Approval from whom?  Lloyd had the 161 acres and was on the MCC side.

In the end, it didn't matter because with Lloyd in control on both sides they still only paid the originally agreed price of $85,000.   It's just that they first needed to get approval from the club to "purchase" the extra 3 acres that took them from the originally approved 117 to the new 120 acres.  This logic is so convoluted that I can't even respond to it.  They had to get approval to purchase something that Lloyd already owned on their behalf?  Did you put purchase in quotes because even you don't believe it was really a purchase in any normal understanding of the term.  The 3 acre purchase was intended to be of the RR property, IMHO.I don't think it's meaningful to anything but a technicality but I'll go back and double-check my understanding here.   In either case, we know that Merion had "secured" 117 acres in November 1910, took under mortgage 120.1 acres in July 1911, and built a golf course on 123 acres, which included 3 acres leased in May 1911 from the railroad.

And Mr. Francis did indeed have his brainstorm.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

It sounds like you're having a tough morning.  I won't take the f*ck off personally.  From the neutral corner here, I'd observe that the abuse between the now silenced combatants flowed both ways.  Let's not you and I and the rest who are still on this topic slide down the same slope into mud slinging.  It is still too bad that the warfare between the three main protagonists buries information that could help the rest of us understand what really happened.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jim,

Not agreed. 

I believe they rushed to get the land deal done. MCC may have balked because they hadn't finalized or even started a routing, which is when the "Flexible Boundary Concept" came into play.  They transferred it to Lloyd (perhaps because both parties trusted him?) and finalized the deal.  Why was there a rush?  Well, maybe there wasn't, or maybe someone had some tax advantages to take advantage of before the end of the calendar year.

In any event, its funny how the same words can be read differently by two different people. I take Culyers words to mean "Start routing within that land boundary and tell me when its done" while you think it means "We are close, tinker some more, and tell me when its done."

Sadly, we don't have Cuyler's words; we only have Tom's summation of them.  We're parsing words that are second hand at best.

I think the land committee (or whatever it was called) wrapped up there work on Dec. 10, 1910.

I think Lloyd commissioned Pugh and Hubbard or others to prepare a topo map upon acquistion of the property.  This today even takes several weeks.  I believe it was delivered to MCC in late January 1911, mostly because Wilson's first letter on 2--1-11 to Oakley says he is "sending our topo maps immediately."  He does not say "We are sending our routing" so (while speculating a bit) I believe the maps are new and the routing has just begun.

I really doubt these important men did a lot the weeks between XMas and New Year.  When they returned in January, they found that Hugh Wilson ahd asked Santa for the chairmanship of the Construction Committee and they made his wish come true on their first meeting of January 11, 1911.  They start to work, and await the topo maps, which because of the Xmas break, show the 11-10-1910 approximate road as their boundary.

After a month of work on it, they take their 5 plans to CBM at NGLA in March.  He/they approve 1 of those plans. 

Five plans developed in a month?  From a bunch of novice designers?  Didn't these guys have day jobs too?

CBM returns on April 6 to declare the last 7 holes among the finest inland holes anywhere.  I doubt he would do this if they hadn't been shaped into their final form.    Do I understand you correctly that in a month that they built and shaped the last seven holes?  Wow, that's impressive.  I'd imagine the land was hard to work in March of a bad winter.  Thus, I conclude that the land swap was merely a part of the routing process and probably occurred between Feb 1 and March ? when they went to NGLA.   They were busy boys, fitting in the development of the 5 plans, and picking one, and swapping the land to make it work, in that month.    CBM "approved" one of the five re-routed plans that they made AFTER noodling on how to best realign the road..

Or, CBM approved some other plan, and they chose it, Francis realized his idea in the middle of the night sometime after the March NGLA visit.  This would narrow the land swap down to March-April 19, 1911 when the final property is approved in the minutes.

The last possibility is that CBM approved a plan on March ? (sorry, forgot the exact date) and they even started building to it, using the November property line.  AFTER he leaves on April 6, but before July 11, 1911 when the deed was finalized, Francis has his idea and the holes 14-17 are altered and blasted away immediately, as he said.  And at that point, it is a mere swap of land along the road.

I am still awaiting some dimensions from Bryan to make sure my map is correctly scaled in CAD but thought I would jump in.

[Melvyn Morrow]

I had not intention of posting on the Merion topic again. However, having just read the letter that CBM wrote to Mr Lloyd on the 29th June 1910 (Mike’s reply 1841) I feel that to be totally open minded and honest all aspects need to be fully debated and not dismissed out of hand. By that I again refer to Mike’s reply 1838 in which he stated We know that Big Mac spent over five months routing NGLA with Travis, Emmett, and the boys; it's absolutely preposterous to think he would even consider doing a Dark Ages of Design single-day routing on his only visit to the property in all of 1910.

I do not believe that you can dismiss previous procedures (bearing in mind very few understand the so called ‘single day routing’ from the 19th Century). I certainly would not out of hand say that CBM did not rout the course, but from what I have read and in particular his apparent letter to Mr Lloyd, it is clear that CBM did attend site – see his penultimate statement from his letter i.e. We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.

I believe that if CBM MAY have walked the land producing a preliminary routing to enable him to come to his suggestions. The fact that he did not have a contour map does not IMO mean that a routing did not take place but that a more detailed report could not be produced until such information was to hand.

I raise this point last week on another Merion thread, but was not well received by many (what’s new). Nevertheless, until solid proof surfaces I do not believe that you can dismiss a preliminary routing by CBM. I again believe that no report of any substance can be produced unless the Consultant knows the site. Clearly, CBM did visit Philadelphia so the possibility is there and need to be investigated with real depth.

It may not be what some want to hear but to get to the truth no stone should be left unturned IMHO

Melvyn.

[Mike_Cirba]

Melvyn,

If CBM did a preliminary routing on his single-day visit in June 1910, then why would he spend the time typing up a rote, generic, hypothetical course on his single-page letter?

Why didn't he just send the routing?

We can't discount UFO's or BgFoot either.

However, there is more proof of their existence than there is that Macdonald did a routing on his single day visit in June 1910 when he was asked to come to Philadelphia by Rodman Griscom and see if the land under consideration was suitable for golf.   Let's not forget he was only on the property one other time, TEN MONTHS later, again for a siingle day.  

I know you don't like to hear this but CBM and his ideas of building great courses were completely antithetical to the same-day designs of the English and Scottish pros that were happening in America at the time, both in philsophy as well as practice.

He took over five months to lay out the course at NGLA before starting construction.

NOBODY was doing that type of thing in America at the time and to suggest he did a Dark Ages design in a few hours at Merion is really ignoring how he elevated the art in this country.  

I'm sure he'd be highly offended if someone even asked him to do such a thing!


Bryan,

That comment wasn't directed at you.

I think we've been having a very productive, enjoyable, civil discussion.

Let's get back to the progress we've been making.

Thanks.

[Mike_Cirba]

In any event, its funny how the same words can be read differently by two different people. I take Culyers words to mean "Start routing within that land boundary and tell me when its done" while you think it means "We are close, tinker some more, and tell me when its done."

Sadly, we don't have Cuyler's words; we only have Tom's summation of them.  We're parsing words that are second hand at best. While we do only have Tom's summation of them, the area I repeated yesterday is a direct quote of the germane part of the letter as I understand it.   Because there was no course yet, nor any routing established, nor even the boundaries of the course determined, Cuyler recommended that Lloyd take title over the entire 161 acres so that he could move the boundary between the real estate components and the golf course as needed.   There is no disputing that as the contextual content of the letter.

I think the land committee (or whatever it was called) wrapped up there work on Dec. 10, 1910.

I think Lloyd commissioned Pugh and Hubbard or others to prepare a topo map upon acquistion of the property.  This today even takes several weeks.  I believe it was delivered to MCC in late January 1911, mostly because Wilson's first letter on 2--1-11 to Oakley says he is "sending our topo maps immediately."  He does not say "We are sending our routing" so (while speculating a bit) I believe the maps are new and the routing has just begun.

I really doubt these important men did a lot the weeks between XMas and New Year.  When they returned in January, they found that Hugh Wilson ahd asked Santa for the chairmanship of the Construction Committee and they made his wish come true on their first meeting of January 11, 1911.  They start to work, and await the topo maps, which because of the Xmas break, show the 11-10-1910 approximate road as their boundary.

After a month of work on it, they take their 5 plans to CBM at NGLA in March.  He/they approve 1 of those plans.  

Five plans developed in a month?  From a bunch of novice designers?  Didn't these guys have day jobs too?

Actually, Jeff is slightly mis-stating this but I'm not sure why this is evidence we're even contending at this point?   We know that the Committee report as read into the MCC Minutes by Robert Lesley on April 19th, 1911 stated;

""Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the new land, they went down to the National Course....."

We don't know when they started laying out many different courses exactly, but we do know that the Committee went to visit Macdonald at the National Course the second week of March, 1911.

"On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans."  

I don't understand why we're wasting time arguing against things already proven to be true and that are well documented?  

So what if they were novices...the record clearly indicates that Hugh Wilson in particular put tons of time, work, and effort into this and I'm sure they were taking maps to bed with them at night, excitedly planning their new course.

Yet, we somehow don't find it appropriate to challenge the silly, preposterous notion that amateur architect CBM who himself was just past novice stage at that point and was still trying to get grass growing at NGLA would go out to Merion and lay out the course in a single day, especially after spending months himself doing the same at NGLA?   Talk about a double standard.  


CBM returns on April 6 to declare the last 7 holes among the finest inland holes anywhere.  I doubt he would do this if they hadn't been shaped into their final form.    Do I understand you correctly that in a month that they built and shaped the last seven holes?  Wow, that's impressive.  I'd imagine the land was hard to work in March of a bad winter.   I agree with you Bryan.   We know for a fact that CBM was basing this grand pronouncement simply on viewing "the plans" as well as walking the land during his April 6th, 1911 visit, the second time he'd been on the property (the previous was ten months prior).   We also know because Tillinghast talked to him at that point and reported that he too had seen the plans, and we also know that construction didnt start til later that month.   But, in fairness, I think Jeff just stated it inprecisely because  I think what he means by "shaped into their final form" is not on the ground, but IN PLAN.    In fact, Jeff clearly knows the construction timelines so I'm sure this is what he means, aren't you?  Thus, I conclude that the land swap was merely a part of the routing process and probably occurred between Feb 1 and March ? when they went to NGLA.   They were busy boys, fitting in the development of the 5 plans, and picking one, and swapping the land to make it work, in that month.     Actually, they were busy boys as the MCC Minutes reflect, but the timelines were a bit more generous than that, with everything happening between January 1911 and April 6th, 1911 when the final selected golf course plan was approved by the Merion Board and construction commenced..

Or, CBM approved some other plan, and they chose it, Francis realized his idea in the middle of the night sometime after the March NGLA visit.  This would narrow the land swap down to March-April 19, 1911 when the final property is approved in the minutes.

The last possibility is that CBM approved a plan on March ? (sorry, forgot the exact date) and they even started building to it, using the November property line.  AFTER he leaves on April 6, but before July 11, 1911 when the deed was finalized, Francis has his idea and the holes 14-17 are altered and blasted away immediately, as he said.  And at that point, it is a mere swap of land along the road.

I am still awaiting some dimensions from Bryan to make sure my map is correctly scaled in CAD but thought I would jump in.

I know your questions were to Jeff, but I thought while he's working on the CAD drawing to show us his theory, I'd weigh in with my understanding.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

Regarding the three acres proposed purchase that was approved in April 1911, the following quotes by Tom Paul are the source of my understanding.

However, it seems Tom Paul's own thinking on which three acres the minutes refer to has changed and evolved over the past few months.

In any case, this is the source of my understanding and contention.  


If they'd done it that way instead of using that P&W 3 acres the only other problem would be that Lloyd and HDC would've been out some more acreage that was slated to be used for residential development but then of course the club could've just paid Lloyd or HDC the $7,500 they allocated to buy the railroad land.   The real irony here is that 3 acre old railroad tract where the old 12th green and old 13th hole once were is now completely obsoleted and not really used for anything even though Merion owns it as of 1961!  By the way, MCC allocated $7,500 in 1911 to buy that P&W three acres but they never bought it until 1961 at which point they paid the outrageous sum of $11,000 for it. Not much price appreciation for the railroad in half a century is it? - April 14, 2009


we've also said for years now that we have never found one of them including the one that it was mentioned in the board meeting minutes was attached to the report to that April 19, 1911 board meeting asking for approval of THAT PLAN AND asking for approval of a land swap for land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining AND approval for the purchase of three more acres for $7,500 that was obviously incorporated in that plan presented to that board meeting - May 31, 2009


No it didn't because MCC agreed to pay the going HDC real estate price ($7,500, $2,500 per acre, 3 acres=$7,500) for the additional three acres they took out of the remaining 221. I guess in the end only 218 got developed but HDC got paid their per acre lot price for that lost three residential acres. At least I hope they did. If not I'm buying about the second half of the 14th hole and I'm gonna sleep in those right greenside bunkers.- June 4, 2009


The app 3 acre P&W railroad land it appears they had their eye on too from June 1910. Macdonald in his letter of June 29, 1910 mentioned they should use it. They did use it in the golf course plan that was approved by the board on 4/19/1911.

But that 3 acre P&W RR land did not figure into the three acre increase in total MCC property to 120.1 acres on the July 21, 1911 deed compared to the 117 acres MCC agreed with HDC to buy out of Lloyd's Dec, 19, 1910 161 acre deed.

On July 21, 1911 MCC owned 120.1 acres (not the originally agreed upon 117) but in effect they were using 123 acres for the golf course because they leased that 3 acres from the P&W railroad. We also have the lease agreement of May, 1911 between MCC and the P&W Railroad. That lease would continue until 1961 when Merion G.C. realized they did not own that land. They thought they'd owned it from the beginning. And so in 1961 they bought that app 3 acre P&W land for $11,000. We have that deed too. - June 5, 2009


I'll ask Tom for clarification on how he thinks that transaction took place next time I speak with him.   It does seem odd to me that Merion would approve a $7,500 purchase of those three acres in April 1911 only to go ahead and lease it for $1 a year the next month.   It even seems odder to me that the Railroad would charge Merion $7,500 for the purchase of those three acres yet only charge them a dollar a year in a perpetual lease to rent it.  

Don't you think that's very odd?

Since we know that the metes and bounds along that creek bordering the railroad land near the clubhouse didn't change between the December 1910 Lloyd deed and the July 1911 Merion deed, we also know that those 3 railroad acres were not part of the difference between the 117 acres Merion secured in 1910 and the 120.1 acres they purchased in July 1911.   Correct?

In the meantime Bryan, perhaps you can answer a related question for me.  

Do you know what the per acre price was for HDC residential land as of April, 1911?

[Mike_Cirba]

[Jeff_Brauer]

I spent some time trying to scale the maps, matching lines on the maps to known metes and bounds both east and west and north/south.  I am still not sure whether to put Golf House Road in MCC, in HDC, or to split it down the middle.  I would need a deed reading to know how that went down.  The total length of that road at 22-25' wide makes about a 2 acre difference either way.

While I can't get the "aha" moment where the numbers come out exact, I still think my theory is correct for reasons stated - there is no evidence of any other working boundary and the acreages just about work out. 

I mentioned this once and will speculate again. Its quite possible that a minor dispute arose about who would own the road.  If GHR got put in MCC boundaries, that alone stuck them with almost 3 extra acres, it might not show up in the minutes as MCC was embarrassed at the gaffe, and it might explain why it wasn't paid for later.  It might have made sense for GHR to be in a non profit organizatoin for tax reasons, or maybe they just built it because they needed it first, with development coming later. But when houses started using it, maybe Lloyd and HDC saw that it wasn't "fair" that MCC should have to pay for it and waived the fee.  Again, that might not be the kind of thing that makes the minutes, but TePaul could search and probably find some record of how the road itself was deeded.

As to some of my speculation on when the routings got done I think they are mostly correct, except I think that CBM did proclaim the last 7 holes to be the finest anywhere based on the plans and not actual construction.

But, if Wilson was appointed Jan 11, and he sent Oakley his "topos" (not routings) "Immediately" then its not hard to say that routings hadn't started much prior to that letter.  And, it would take a month or so to complete a topo map, especailly in winter weather.  Those old survey instruments can't be used in rain and snow - they fog up, so a month is pretty quick.

I am too tired to type more and frankly, seeing the degeneration of this thread again, I figure I won't do any more measuring.  At one point, I figured it would be quicker than typing posts just to show a picture.  But, it seems like a lot of ground is being covered anew and again just for the sake of being argumentative.  I guess Merion just brings that out in people!

Have a good night and a Happy Fathers Day!

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

Thanks anyway.

Yes, I'm not sure why some folks go back and contend issues like the Merion Committee doing a bunch of routings in the spring of 1911.  It's factual, it's well documented, and it's a waste of time and typing to keep repeating the same arguments and typing the same responses in different ways.

I guess it doesn't fit in with their theory.

It reminds me of the legal tactic that basically says, if you don't have the facts on your side, pound on the table, make a lot of noise, and try to distract the jury by appearing outraged by such a miscarriage of justice.  

I had really believed we were making significant progress here in the past few days, and the good news is that with guys like Jim Sullivan and I'm sure others I think it was worthwhile.

However, there are  some who obviously don't want the obvious end result and will continue to believe in their conspiracy theories no matter what the facts point to.

Happy Father's Day to you, as well!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I was just trying to make the numbers work exactly to avoid more "conspiracy theories", I guess.  I do agree that its human nature that when the Philly boys inadvertantly leave one part of a letter out of a retyped document, that its human nature (and not just the evil side!) to suspect something is up.  But, I guess that is what us amateur sportsman historians have to contend with!

I think my theory and the basic acreage numbers still make sense – basically the delineated area was about 123 acres, and they gave 6 to HDC near the clubhouse and northern entry, and took about 1.5 in the two triangles (1 Green and 14 Dog leg) and another 1.5 in to the centerline of GHR, for a total of 120 acres. (I am pretty sure that GHR would be split down the middle and that no funny business would have really gone on with that road like I posted last night. I also have no idea why they didn't pay for it later other than it was still a friendly deal)

Even though my scaled mapping didn’t yield anything definite, I am still of the mind that the approximate GHR delineation was their working western border until the land swap along GHR and that Francis contribution was to be the one to figure out how to realign it by widening it at 15 green/16 tee and narrowing it at the clubhouse.  That is what he basically tells us and that is what the documents we have tell us. I doubt when he spoke or wrote those words that he ever thought someone would be very interested in the exact details 59 years later so there is little need to parse his words as gospel over the visual evidence we have!

Tossing and turning last night, another “simple” argument to counter the Pat Mucci/DM "CBM routed it in 1910" came to mind –

Why, if the routing was done from June-November 1910, AND they were relying so heavily on CBM, did the NGLA visit NOT occur in that time period?  It seems PM can’t have it both ways to me….CBM did it and did it in 1910, but they only went there in March 1911 with five routings.  Now, that doesn’t make sense to me.  I know DM is looking for more letters between the parties, but I doubt they exist.

BTW, I also recalled vaguely that TePaul or Wayne had posted snippets of the MCC letter accepting the HDC offer in November 1919.  I believe the letter mentions something to the effect that the terms required MCC to immediately begin "laying out" (they actually said laying off, which is why I remember this) a golf course.

Now, DM and PM will probably argue that "laying out" means construction, proving that the course was already routed.  But, I tend to favor your "simplest explanation" theory, Mike, and think the volume of documents in MCC's history (even though we have to take TePaul and Wayne's word for it) and some basic logic show that the routing occurred later in 1911. 

I do see how DM arrived at his original logic tree, but it was based on, I think, a lack of a few key documents not in his possession that have now generally surfaced in one form or another, allowing a fuller interpretation of the documents and time line.

As to conspiracy theories, well I live in Dallas and I believe the Warren Commission.  As someone mentioned earlier, I always wondered about the shooting accuracy of Oswald.  Then, I took the 6th Floor Tour and stood where he stood.  It looks like a fairly short and easy shot from up there, as opposed to those views where you zoom in from down below up to that window.  It was a Groucho Marx moment - who would I believe - millions of conspiracy theorists or my own eyes?

[Jeff_Brauer]

PS - Can you tell I am tired of arguing?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

You also have the benefit of being absolutely correct.

I'm going to play golf but I do want to expand on your very wise and very reasonable comments later.

I also agree that David made some very reasonable assumptions based on what evidence he had at the time.

There are just some however who will contnue to argue for arguments sake and others who simply don't want to accept reality based on personal grievances and or inherent biases.

So be it...thanks again for your fairmindedness and wisdom borne of real experience.

[Bryan Izatt]

Jeff,

For whatever it's worth the metes and bounds of GHR in the July 1911 deed are described as going up the middle of the road.  In fact all the metes on all roads go up the middle.  The one exception is the Dallas Estate where the metes angle across the road and they actually own a triangular slice of road.  Previously in answer to a post on ownership of roads Tom said that he believed the land owners owned the roads property but "dedicated", not deeded it to the the Township.

Don't get tired.  You add a voice of reason - even if speculative - to the discussion.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff,

I'm also beginning to think that the "help of a little ground on the nothside of Ardmore Ave" that helped them fit the first thirteen holes was not the 3 acres of RR land but the land nwar the first green, which also did not fit into the working boundary on that Land Plan.

Three acres is hardly little and I think they planned to use the RR land from the get-go after M+W adised them to procure it back in the beginning...June 1910.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Regarding the three acres proposed purchase that was approved in April 1911, the following quotes by Tom Paul are the source of my understanding.

However, it seems Tom Paul's own thinking on which three acres the minutes refer to has changed and evolved over the past few months.

In any case, this is the source of my understanding and contention.  


If they'd done it that way instead of using that P&W 3 acres the only other problem would be that Lloyd and HDC would've been out some more acreage that was slated to be used for residential development but then of course the club could've just paid Lloyd or HDC the $7,500 they allocated to buy the railroad land.   The real irony here is that 3 acre old railroad tract where the old 12th green and old 13th hole once were is now completely obsoleted and not really used for anything even though Merion owns it as of 1961!  By the way, MCC allocated $7,500 in 1911 to buy that P&W three acres but they never bought it until 1961 at which point they paid the outrageous sum of $11,000 for it. Not much price appreciation for the railroad in half a century is it? - April 14, 2009


we've also said for years now that we have never found one of them including the one that it was mentioned in the board meeting minutes was attached to the report to that April 19, 1911 board meeting asking for approval of THAT PLAN AND asking for approval of a land swap for land ALREADY PURCHASED for land adjoining AND approval for the purchase of three more acres for $7,500 that was obviously incorporated in that plan presented to that board meeting - May 31, 2009


No it didn't because MCC agreed to pay the going HDC real estate price ($7,500, $2,500 per acre, 3 acres=$7,500) for the additional three acres they took out of the remaining 221. I guess in the end only 218 got developed but HDC got paid their per acre lot price for that lost three residential acres. At least I hope they did. If not I'm buying about the second half of the 14th hole and I'm gonna sleep in those right greenside bunkers.- June 4, 2009


The app 3 acre P&W railroad land it appears they had their eye on too from June 1910. Macdonald in his letter of June 29, 1910 mentioned they should use it. They did use it in the golf course plan that was approved by the board on 4/19/1911.

But that 3 acre P&W RR land did not figure into the three acre increase in total MCC property to 120.1 acres on the July 21, 1911 deed compared to the 117 acres MCC agreed with HDC to buy out of Lloyd's Dec, 19, 1910 161 acre deed.

On July 21, 1911 MCC owned 120.1 acres (not the originally agreed upon 117) but in effect they were using 123 acres for the golf course because they leased that 3 acres from the P&W railroad. We also have the lease agreement of May, 1911 between MCC and the P&W Railroad. That lease would continue until 1961 when Merion G.C. realized they did not own that land. They thought they'd owned it from the beginning. And so in 1961 they bought that app 3 acre P&W land for $11,000. We have that deed too. - June 5, 2009


I'll ask Tom for clarification on how he thinks that transaction took place next time I speak with him.   It does seem odd to me that Merion would approve a $7,500 purchase of those three acres in April 1911 only to go ahead and lease it for $1 a year the next month.   It even seems odder to me that the Railroad would charge Merion $7,500 for the purchase of those three acres yet only charge them a dollar a year in a perpetual lease to rent it.  

Don't you think that's very odd?  I don't recall seeing the details of the lease, so, I can't comment.  After having seen a bunch of deeds where substantial property changed hands for $1, I tend to think that the real money paid is often obscured behind veils of legal and accounting mumbo jumbo.

Since we know that the metes and bounds along that creek bordering the railroad land near the clubhouse didn't change between the December 1910 Lloyd deed and the July 1911 Merion deed, we also know that those 3 railroad acres were not part of the difference between the 117 acres Merion secured in 1910 and the 120.1 acres they purchased in July 1911.   Correct?  I can't say with regard to the 117 acres, because you'll recall we don't know the bounds of that., but it wasn't in the 161 acres nor in the 120.01 acres, so I would conclude that it did not account for the difference.

In the meantime Bryan, perhaps you can answer a related question for me.  

Do you know what the per acre price was for HDC residential land as of April, 1911?

Do you mean price for it when they would sell it for real estate?  Or, do you mean the cost to acquire it?   I'll try to answer later after you answer.

A question for you in return.  Was the Lesley report of April 1911 ever reproduced in its entirety on this thread (or any thread)?  I lose track of these things.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike, you said

If CBM did a preliminary routing on his single-day visit in June 1910, then why would he spend the time typing up a rote, generic, hypothetical course on his single-page letter?

I was not there I don’t know – but before anyone undertakes a professional statement or report would one not check out the subject first. If actually on site I would not think it would have been a hardship to quickly check it out. As a designer I would during my initial survey (if the mind and site clicked) be make a rudimentary plan or at least assimilating a preliminary plan to allow me to submit my report in the first place.  

Why didn't he just send the routing?

Good question, again I don’t know, perhaps because it was a preliminary one?

We can't discount UFO's or BgFoot either.

Mike, Good try, you have no argument against my suggestion, so why not jut ridicule any suggestion that may have some possible validity or be the links to what actually happened. In research, we need to look at all real option whether we like them or not. If I did not know you better I would be wondering if you are trying to bend the facts to confirm you point of view. I may be totally wrong, but surely its worth considering and investigating before throwing the idea out?

However, there is more proof of their existence than there is that Macdonald did a routing on his single day visit in June 1910 when he was asked to come to Philadelphia by Rodman Griscom and see if the land under consideration was suitable for golf.   Let's not forget he was only on the property one other time, TEN MONTHS later, again for a siingle day.  

The proof you relate to is the same proof I am submitting, in that it is the belief of others that these thing exist. If you accept their point of view surely you must check out mine first before dismissing it out of hand. If we are talking about design, that can be inspirational hence my comment (if the mind and site click), a Eureka moment if you will, who knows but it possible and certainly within a day, hour or minute.

I know you don't like to hear this but CBM and his ideas of building great courses were completely antithetical to the same-day designs of the English and Scottish pros that were happening in America at the time, both in philsophy as well as practice.

With respect with you Mike, you don’t know what I like to hear or not. As for American course I have no real knowledge> However, I having been involved with design dealing with Blue Chip Companies for over 30 years, so I have a basic idea on design concepts. As for your statement, you may well be right, but what input did the following Scottish Designers make on American Golf, D Ross, Foulis Brothers, W Campbell, W Park Jnr, I could go further and list some more but I think you get my drift. Even after 15 years or so of departing from God’s Country, would the designs have any resemblance of the old course they left back at home. Leave you to answer that, but honestly please.

He took over five months to lay out the course at NGLA before starting construction.

Old Tom took a morning to design Kinghorn but it was many months before the course was ready or the green built before the formal open ceremony could be held. Also many of the courses in the 19th Century took around 2-6 months from design to being formally opened to the public.

NOBODY was doing that type of thing in America at the time and to suggest he did a Dark Ages design in a few hours at Merion is really ignoring how he elevated the art in this country.

I don’t know is my truthful answer but I do not believe that you to can dismiss it that easily.  For too long we have been dismissing the 19th Century as the Dark Ages, yet most don’t know much about that period or how design actually worked. To call them the Dark Ages is actually to accept ones own ignorance of that time period, but you are in good company many that followed also seemed to have forgotten and dismissed the early designers, believing their own work far superior to the earlier designs. Arrogance regrettable travels well through time.    

I'm sure he'd be highly offended if someone even asked him to do such a thing!

Again I do not know. All I can relate to is my own experience and I would check out the site and try to work within what hopefully would be regarded as good working practices before putting my name or reputation to paper. Through the years we have need certain projects but due to the clients limitations or construction constraint, we have declined and walked away from a project because we feared it would compromise our own principles and reputation. Yes it hurt us and our company financially but we did not loose our reputation going on the win contracts from many Blue Chip companies. How did CBM work, I don’t know but I hope we mirrored his MO.

I have no wish to take sides, but as I have said before we need to look at all possibilities even if they do not fit the outcome we want. After all is this long debate not all about actually getting to the truth and learning on the way – or have I missed something?

All my comments have been submitted with sincere respect to you, Tom and Wayne.

Melvyn

[Mike_Cirba]

Bryan,

I'm en route to play golf, thank God, but I'll get the lease details and answer the other stuff later.  The lease was perpetual and * dollar a year though and was in effect til 1961 when they bought the land outright for 11K.

Not much appreciation of that land over 50 years I guess! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Oh God, why do I feel compelled to respond?

Byran,

As to the buying of the RR land, my knowledge of RR history tells me that at that time the Pennsylvania Railroad was starting to struggle. It would merge into the Penn Central a few years later and then become the biggest bankruptcy in US history to that point in 1968.  IMHO, they were probably looking to sell of any unused asset to raise cash (I know for a fact they were doing it all over the system, but am speculating that MCC used the opportunity and inside knowledge to take advantage of that)

As to the $1 transactions, there is nothing sinister about that, its fairly typical because the law says there must be consideration in any deal, that you just can't transfer title for free.  A personal example - I am transferring the title of the car we bought for my daughter in high school to her for $1 even though she has been using it as if it was hers for six years.  I am not astute enough to know exactly why Culyers proposed a separate corporation be formed for MCC in December but it probably was to limit liability to anyone in the club personally and to protect existing club assets.  Again, pretty standard operating procedure then and now.

Melvyn,

At least those who believe in UFO's have seen them (or thought they have)

While there is a mention of the Barker routing, no one ever mentioned the CBM routing. If both consultants came in for a day to comment on the suitability of the land for golf (which does happen without routings, BTW) you would think that both routings would have been mentioned.  IMHO, Barker added the quick sketch, even though it was not in his responsibility to do so.  CBM didn't.  It was his first visit and he wouldn't have brought anything.  And we know he didn't take topo maps home with him (and there is a big doubt as to whether they were even complete in that time frame, with Connell having just optioned the property) 

So, the question is, if no one mentions a routing, and CBM says its hard to say for sure without topo maps, what in all of the written words suggests he did a routing?  And, please recall that even CBM was NOT a professional GCA at that time, nor was he ever a professional GCA.  At this time he had Chicago Golf and an unopened NGLA to his credit, not the entire list of courses that he and Raynor built.

So what makes you suggest that he had some obligation to do some work as a "professional" before coming over?  He knew Griscomb, he was in town for the US Am in June of 1910 and they persuaded him to come over to give a second opinion as to the suitability of the land.

Like Mike, I wonder why these issues just keep coming up under the guise of believing in UFO's?  I think we need to take the whole of the recorded documents, the time lines, etc. to form our opinions.  As someone said, interjection how you imagine it might have gone based on what you know today may not be accurate.  Now, I know I do some of the same, and probably think that my opinion is closer because I have been involved in these kind of deals, but I really started focusing on the documents that exist than theoretical ones that don't.

It gives a different perspective on the timeline, at least to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The Barker letter is very significant for several reasons.

Those reasons follow the letter which appears below.

Mr. Joseph R. Connell,

Dear Sir:

Philadelphia, Pa., June 10, 1910. (Please note the date !)


I today have inspected the property (Please note the date !) at Haverford, south of College Avenue, where it is proposed to to lay out a golf course: and beg to submit to you my report.


I am enclosing a sketch of the property in question on which I have roughly shown in pencil a proposed lay out of the course.[/color]


We know that to "lay out" a golf course means to "ROUTE" a golf course.
At least that's what Mike Cirba and others have told us.

I would say that the land is in every way adapted to the making of a first class course, comparing most favorably with the best courses in this country, such as Myopia and Garden City.

In the past few years I have laid out upwards of twenty (20) courses in this country, and from my experience I believe the proposed course could be constructed at less expense than any I have heretofore gone over.
If the work was commenced at once, the course could be ready for play by the fall of 1911.

Very truly yours,

H. H. BARKER,

Garden City, L. I., N. Y.


This letter should prove several points.

First, that a golf course COULD be routed in a single day.
Second, that a routing DID exist as early as June 10, 1910.
Third, that M&W could have provided a routing after their visit.
  
While Barker's experience at routing appears far more extensive than CBM's CBM had ample study and experience to enable him to produce a basic routing in a day, just as Donald Ross did during his career, and, CBM had the advantage of having a talented partner.

To those who claim that it took M&W five months to route NGLA, there is no evidence that the basic routing wasn't completed shortly after they initially rode the land for 2 or 3 days in 1906..

[Patrick_Mucci]

By July 1, 1910 Merion's Site Committee knew that they required nearly 120 acres. [117 acres from HDC plus about 2.9 acres of the RR land behind the clubhouse.]  And they recommended the purchase.

Problem was, HDC did not yet own the land HDC required.   They had not yet bought the Dallas Estate!.

Connell's original offer to sell 100 acres or whatever was required for the course came in June 1910 or before.   Also in June, they began trying to acquire the Dallas estate.   

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