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DMoriarty

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1350 on: June 06, 2009, 08:50:13 PM »
Patrick,
Whenever the land finally and officially changed hands, the initial deal was struck between HDC and MCC in November of 1910.   Now it is possible that the deal mirrored NGLA's in that it allowed Merion to continue to adjust the borders, but there is no question that Merion had secured the land in November, and had been working on securing the land for months before.   

In fact there was a second announcement by the board right around the turn of the year where they announced that the land had been secured,   and they thanked certain members for their role.    Obviously they were referring to the "bridge" or "guarantor" role that Lloyd and others were playing.   

It is possible quite possible that here to they were mirroring NGLA.    At NGLA M&W inpected the land and came up with a rough routing, then they optioned the land in a manner that allowed them to continue to fudge with the borders while they worked out the details, then the completed the course.   

No matter what was going on, there is no way these guys agreed to purchase 117 acres of land if they didnt already having a course chosen.  To do so would have been foolish.

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1351 on: June 06, 2009, 09:13:37 PM »
On July 1, 1910, two days after Macdonald and Whigham visited the proposed site of the Merion course, and three weeks after a visit by HH Barker, the Site Committee sent the following Report (2 pages) to the Merion Board of Government;






Again, for posterity's sake, this is the contents of the  "Macdonald Letter" to the Site Committee;


New York, June 29, 1910
Horatio G. Lloyd, Esq.
c/o Messrs. Drexel and Co.
Philadelphia, Pa

Dear Mr. Lloyd:

Mr. Whigham and I discussed the various merits of the land you propose buying, and we think it has some very desirable features.  The quarry and the brooks can be made much of.  What it lacks in abrupt mounds can be largely rectified.

We both think that your soil will produce a firm and durable turf through the fair green quickly.  The putting greens of course will need special treatment, as the grasses are much finer.

The most difficult problem you have to contend with is to get in eighteen holes that will be first class in the acreage you propose buying.  So far as we can judge, without a contour map before us, we are of the opinion that it can be done, provided you get a little more land near where you propose making your Club House.  The opinon that a long course is always the best course has been exploded.  A 6000 yd. course can be made really first class, and to my mind it is more desirable than a 6300 or a 6400 yd. course, particularly where the roll of the ball will not be long, because you cannot help with the soil you have on that property having heavy turf.  Of course it would be very fast when the summer baked it well.

The following is my idea of a  6000 yard course:

One 130 yard hole
One 160    "
One 190    "
One 220 yard to 240 yard hole,
One 500 yard hole,
Six 300 to 340 yard holes,
Five 360 to 420    "
Two 440 to 480    "

As regards drainage and treatment of soil, I think it would be wise for your Committee to confer with the Baltusrol Committee.  They had a very difficult drainage problem.  You have a very simple one.  Their drainage opinions will be valuable to you.  Further, I think their soil is very similar to yours, and it might be wise to learn from them the grasses that have proved most satisfactory though the fair green.

In the meantime, it will do no harm to cut a sod or two and send it to Washington for anlaysis of the natural grasses, those indigenous to the soil.

We enjoyed our trip to Philadelphia very much, and were very pleased to meet your Committee.

With kindest regards to you all, believe me,

Yours very truly,

(signed)  Charles B. Macdonald

In soil analysis have the expert note particularly amount of carbonate of lime.





It should be noted that at this time, Merion and HDC were still many months away from aquiring the Dallas Estate, sale of which went through in November, 1910.

What HDC did have at this time (July 1910)  is the Johson Farm, and properties west and north of it above Ardmore Avenue.   Not coincidentally, as shown earlier, the acreage of the Johnson Farm sections south of Ardmore Avenue and the northeast section totalled 117 acres and this is the land inspected at that time by Barker, Macdonald, and Whigham.    The latter two recommended the additional purchase of the 3 acres owned by the Railroad next to the clubhouse, which would have totalled 120.   This land was later leased from the railroad for over 50 years.

One can see what the HDC holdings were in July 1910 both in the black marked section of Johson Farm (117 acres), as well as the sections west and north of the course (which goes further north off the map).   Again, the Johnson Farm in black is the land looked at by Barker, Macdonald, and Whigham.




On November 15, 1910 along with the Land Plan, the following letter was sent to the membership of Merion.






The 117 acres at this point was no longer made up of just the northeastern and southern sections of the Johnson Farm.

Now, the 21 acre Dallas Estate had been purchased, and the land boundary between real estate and golf course in the northeastern section of the Johnson Farm had been "approximated" by a separating road boundary, which moved most of that boundary slightly east and created a net loss of 21 acres in that section of the course from what was proposed in July.

Given the net effect of the aquisition of the Dallas Estate and the delineation of the proposed road was +-0 acres, however, the totals remained  221 acres for real estate, 117 for golf course.

The Land Plan was attached, showing both the newly aquired Dallas Estate in the southwest corner, as well as the newly negotiated proposed boundary cutting up through the original northeast section of Johnson Farm, titled "Approximate Location of Road"

« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 10:16:58 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1352 on: June 06, 2009, 09:20:35 PM »
According to TEPaul, the plan to acquire the Dallas Estate was hatched in June 1910.  Of course he could have been misrepresenting the record.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1353 on: June 06, 2009, 10:05:51 PM »
Mike,

Thank you for that, look forward to discussing more.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1354 on: June 07, 2009, 01:07:53 AM »
Personally, David, I agree that it was hatched as soon as CBM visited the property, but purposely not discussed to keep the price down.  CBM could certainly see (as could some of the committee members, perhaps) that the little leg between Dallas Estate and Ardmore Ave was useless for golf, being less than one hole wide and long.

Just because CBM didn't put it in the letter, doesn't mean it wasn't discussed on site as he was giving general advice, including, BTW design advice (contrary to the ideas of some) because hole lengths were included in the letter.  I doubt he did a routing at that point or it might have referenced it, and because the letter returned so quickly (2 days)

And, frankly, from July to November isn't that much time to negotiate an option for the land, set a price, etc.  Sure, Dallas may have wanted to sell and took the first offer, but it usually doesn't work that way.  I believe that would be especially true because it was noted how fast land was selling in that area and that MCC had to act now while prices were still affordable.  I am betting there was some negotiation, and even some time used in preparing the proper paperwork before the option was finalized in Nov. 

I guess you could label most of the above speculation, which is what most of this thread (the non argumentative parts) is.  Or, interpretation if it sounds more polite!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1355 on: June 07, 2009, 09:47:20 AM »
Personally, David, I agree that it was hatched as soon as CBM visited the property, but purposely not discussed to keep the price down.  CBM could certainly see (as could some of the committee members, perhaps) that the little leg between Dallas Estate and Ardmore Ave was useless for golf, being less than one hole wide and long.

Just because CBM didn't put it in the letter, doesn't mean it wasn't discussed on site as he was giving general advice, including, BTW design advice (contrary to the ideas of some) because hole lengths were included in the letter.  I doubt he did a routing at that point or it might have referenced it, and because the letter returned so quickly (2 days)

And, frankly, from July to November isn't that much time to negotiate an option for the land, set a price, etc.  Sure, Dallas may have wanted to sell and took the first offer, but it usually doesn't work that way.  I believe that would be especially true because it was noted how fast land was selling in that area and that MCC had to act now while prices were still affordable.  I am betting there was some negotiation, and even some time used in preparing the proper paperwork before the option was finalized in Nov. 

I guess you could label most of the above speculation, which is what most of this thread (the non argumentative parts) is.  Or, interpretation if it sounds more polite!

Jeff,

I'm not sure I agree for a few fundamental reasons.

First, the major concern Macdonald points out in his single-page letter is whether they can get 18 quality holes onto the property they were looking at.   It was going to be a tight fit.   On the face of it, the property size wasn't unrealistic because they were looking at 117 acres TOTAL, which was more than large enough for a golf course in those days.   The original Merion course they first tried to purchase was 102 aces and just a few years prior Macdonald thought he would need about 110 acres to build NGLA.   But, in the case of a property as oddly configured and narrow in spots as Merion, they weren't exactly going to gush enthusiastically, and they didn't.   

Had they been also talking with the implicit understanding that the Dallas Estate, with a "wink and a nod", was going to be part of the deal they then also would have been both understanding that the overall area under discussion was 138 acres total, at which case, 1) total acreage would not have been remotely an issue of concern, and 2) they probably wouldn't have been as focused on their recommendation of the 3 acres of railroad land.   

If you look at the original Johnson Farm property, widening that area where the "L" comes together (the 3 acre railroad land) would have been paramount for the reasons I mentioned earlier, but if they had another 21 acres of the Dallas Estate already on the table (or drawing board) that wouldn't have been as critical.

Beyond that, at the time (June) they visited, there was not even an option that HDC had on the Dallas Estate at that time.   The letter makes clear that they are only talking about HDC Holdings, at the time roughly 300 acres, and that they were  "requiring nearly 120 acres" for their course, which at the time would have been the Johnson Farm and the 3 acres of Railroad Land.

Finally, had they been trying to keep it to a wink and a whisper agreement between themselves, I'm not sure how a private letter strictly between Macdonald and Lloyd would have violated that?   As it was, even with the very generic advice put forward by Macdonald in that letter, he does mention purchasing railroad land and the contents of that letter were deemed to be "not for publication".   

Do you know what I think?

I think Lloyd had already invested so much time, effort, and potential capital into this effort that he kept Macdonald's clear reservations a bit close to the vest, and if you think about it, most of what got published at the time focused on Barker, Macdonald, and Whigham saying it could be another Garden City or Myopia...blah, blah, blah...and that their concerns about acreage, agronomics, soils, got largely kept from the membership and public.

It's clear he had dreams of building his gigantic estate home out there on the hill, and I'm sure he wanted his club to be right there, as well.


***EDIT*** That westernmost portion of Johnson Farm land south of Ardmore Avenue measures approximately 320 feet wide and 650 feet long, which surely would have been wide enough to accommodate two holes.   
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:40:06 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1356 on: June 07, 2009, 10:17:41 AM »

***EDIT*** That westernmost portion of Johnson Farm land south of Ardmore Avenue measures approximately 320 feet wide and 650 feet long, which surely would have been wide enough to accommodate two holes.   

so long as they are not the 15th and 16th holes...

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1357 on: June 07, 2009, 10:34:13 AM »
Jim,

The reason 15 and 16 needed such width at the base of the triangle (390 feet) is that it's a sweeping dogleg right following the curve of the land boundary (road) paralleling a straight hole (16th).   If they were both straight holes, there would be no need for that additional width, agreed?

Earlier you asked about the price...here's what David's essay says about the Dallas Estate purchase;

Haverford Development Company Acquires 21 Acre “Dallas Estate”
While Merion’s requirement of the two additional parcels may have delayed the purchase, the development company acted quickly to resolve any apparent impasse. On August 14, 1910, the Inquirer reported the pending sale of the “Dallas Estate,” a 21 acre parcel bordering the southwest corner of Haverford Development Company’ holdings. On November 4, 1910, the Inquirer reported that sale of the Dallas Estate had settled for $25,000, and that the purchaser, Mr. James Freeman, would build a large house on the estate.

But despite the reports about Mr. Freeman and his supposed plans for a house, ownership of the Dallas Estate immediately passed to Haverford Development Company. In fact, within 11 days of the November article reporting Mr. Freeman’s supposed purchase, the development company had not only secured the Dallas Estate, they had also sold an option on the parcel to Merion Cricket Club. Given this quick turnaround, Mr. Freeman (if he existed) may have been acting clandestinely on behalf of the development company, which was perhaps hoping to avoid having to pay an extortionate sum for land crucial to their deal with Merion.



I went back and read much of David's essay last night and I'd suggest you do the same.

He rests his timeline case around the land purchases on the following premise;

1) Connell and HDC offered 100 acres (or whatever would be required for the golf course) and a routing by Barker in June 1910
2) Macdonald and Whigham came to visit later June 1910
3) During their visit, David contends that it was identified that two additional pieces of land would be needed, proven by seeming change to now "requiring 120 acres" in the July 1, 1910 report of the Site Committee to the Merion Board.   David speculates that the additional acreage was made up of the Dallas Estate and the Railroad Land, although that would create the requirement for an additional 24 acres, not 20.

However, there was NEVER ANY CHANGE FROM 100 ACRES TO 120 ACRES IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!   BOTH numbers come from THE EXACT SAME JULY 1, 1910 REPORT!!! (copied above)

We now firmly believe that when Barker and Macdonald, and Whigham visited they was already looking at 117 acres...the exact acreage of the northeastern and southern sections of the Johnson Farm, land ALREADY OWNED by HDC and thus able to be legally part of the proposed transaction and recommendation.

We also know that Macdonald recommended additional purchase of the 3 acres of Railroad Land which would have created the "120 acres" referenced in the July 1 letter.


Do you think on July 1, 1910 that the Site Committee would have immediately recommended to the Board of Governors that the club purchase Dallas Estate land as part of the deal that;

1) would have increased the total commitment to 138 acres

and

2) wasn't even optioned much less owned by the seller for another five months?

No, instead I think if you follow the real estate trail and timings it's very clear that what Barker, and Macdonald and Whigham viewed and reported on was the land HDC already owned...described as part of their 300 acres of holdings in the July 1 Report to the Board...and Macdonald and Whigham rightfully had some concerns about fitting in 18 quality holes.


p.s...paging Bryan Izatt, paging Bryan Izatt

Bryan...I did calcs of the Johnson Farm westernmost neck of land from the 1900 Railroad Map (whch seems dimensionally more accurate than the 1908 one).   When I go on Google Earth, it seems about 120 yards wide, but I wanted to get your independent take on the measurement of that land.

Thanks.



« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 11:25:46 AM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1358 on: June 07, 2009, 11:43:35 AM »
"The letter below, which Mike Cirba posted, says just the opposite.
It states that they HAD secured the land PRIOR to November 15, 1910, and that they had chosen that land as early as July, 1910."


Patrick:

The letter mentioned does not say MCC purchased land from HDC in Nov. 1910; it says they had secured the land which means they had an agreement with HDC to buy 117 acres. MCC would not actually purchase land until July 21, 1911, and at that time they (MCCGA) took title to 120.1 acres (an ADDITIONAL 3 acres) out of a larger lot (161 acres) Horatio Gates Lloyd had purchased (essentially for MCC) on Dec. 19, 1910.

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1359 on: June 07, 2009, 11:51:15 AM »
"That's nonsense, and, it doesn't matter WHEN it happened, it happened, it became part of Merion's Historical Record.
Thus, the historical record was wrong."

It matters WHEN it happened if anyone is going to try to make some case that Wilson going abroad in 1912 instead of 1910 had some influence over what Wilson and his committee did in 1910 and 1911 as far as routing and designing Merion East. That is the case that essay tried to make and it is wholly inaccurate! Wilson and his committee did route and design Merion East in 1911 (the Merion record that includes Wilson's report to the board on 4/19/1911 specifically says so).

The only error in the Merion history was that Wilson went abroad in 1910 rather than 1912 and that story first began probably in the 1970s so there is no way it could've effected what happened in 1910 and 1911 since the story did not begin until 50-60 years AFTER THE FACTS of 1910 and 1911!!


TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1360 on: June 07, 2009, 11:59:12 AM »
"No matter what was going on, there is no way these guys agreed to purchase 117 acres of land if they didnt already having a course chosen.  To do so would have been foolish."



That is a factually inaccurate statment! If it is to be considered factually accurate some FACTS are going to need to be produced to support it. It does not remotely pass as factual support that someone like David Moriarty THINKS it would've been foolish that those guys agreed to purchase (an agreement to purchase is definitely NOT the same thing as a PURCHASE of land (Title and Deed)) before creating a routing and design plan for on something similar to that land. 




"According to TEPaul, the plan to acquire the Dallas Estate was hatched in June 1910.  Of course he could have been misrepresenting the record."



WHERE did I say THAT?

« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 12:02:08 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1361 on: June 07, 2009, 12:10:01 PM »
Mike Cirba:


Your post #1440 that is complete with supporting documentation and detailed explanation is a really good summation of the timeline of what really did go on at Ardmore in 1910 and early 1911. IT IS REALLY GOOD and really historically accurate and should serve as an instructional blueprint for anyone interested in the detailed timeline of this stage of Merion East!

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1362 on: June 07, 2009, 12:10:38 PM »
"No matter what was going on, there is no way these guys agreed to purchase 117 acres of land if they didnt already having a course chosen.  To do so would have been foolish."



That is a factually inaccurate statment! If it is to be considered factually accurate some FACTS are going to need to be produced to support it. It does not remotely pass as factual support that someone like David Moriarty THINKS it would've been foolish that those guys agreed to purchase (an agreement to purchase is definitely NOT the same thing as a PURCHASE of land (Title and Deed)) before creating a routing and design plan for on something similar to that land. 



The fact is, they DID NOT JUST PURCHASE 117 ACRES OF LAND WILLY-NILLY.

They had the most famous golfer in the country, Charles B. Macdonald and his son-in-law H.J Whigam down from New York to look at the property that was owned by HDC and M&W somewhat guardedly gave them their blessing.  

However, there is no way that Macdonald and Whigham routed a golf course between their letter of June 29th, 1910 (copied above) and the Merion Site Committee's July 1, 1910 report (also copied above) RECOMMENDING STRONGLY to the Merion Board that they move forward to aquire the "required" 120 acres, and the only land that could have meant at that time was the 117 acres of those sections of the Johnson Farm, as well as the 3 acres of railroad land.

 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:41:26 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1363 on: June 07, 2009, 12:16:22 PM »
"I guess you could label most of the above speculation, which is what most of this thread (the non argumentative parts) is.  Or, interpretation if it sounds more polite!"


Jeffrey:

While that post of yours may seem logical to you or to any of us, it still is complete speculation. There is absolutely no factual information whatsoever to support it. Some defending the credibility of that essay have constantly called for only the producing and using of FACTS (and no speculation) from those questioning the credibility of that essay, and therefore those questioning the credibility of that essay must require that those defending the credibililty of that essay should also only produce and use FACTS (and no speculation) to support their positions!

Furthermore, MCC's own board records do say that the only person negotiating with HDC between July and early November 1910 was Horatio Gates Lloyd! It even states those those negotiations took place at a number of meetings and a few conferences between Lloyd and Connell (of HDC).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 12:20:46 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1364 on: June 07, 2009, 12:19:09 PM »
"I guess you could label most of the above speculation, which is what most of this thread (the non argumentative parts) is.  Or, interpretation if it sounds more polite!"

Jeffrey:

While that post my seem logical to you or to any of us, it still is complete speculation. There is absolutely no factual information whatsoever to support it.

Furthermore, MCC's own board records do say that the only person negotiating with HDC between July and early November 1910 was Horatio Gates Lloyd! It even states those those negotiations took place at a number of meetings and a few conferences between Lloyd and Connell (of HDC).

Just to touch on that Tom, I don't agree with Jeff that almost all of this thread is speculation.

I believe that many historic documents and facts have been produced on this thread, many for the first time.

Besides the new material, however, the only difference is that this time they've been produced in the proper and factually-accurate sequential historical order.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:38:24 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1365 on: June 07, 2009, 12:39:48 PM »
"It's clear he had dreams of building his gigantic estate home out there on the hill, and I'm sure he wanted his club to be right there, as well."


Michael:

Allgates was not a dream for Lloyd at that time; it had become a reality. In 1910 he had already purchased the first 25 acres of what would become the 75 acre Allgates. It would take two years for his architecturally significant mansion to be completed and he would move into it in 1912. Interestingly, none of Allgates was on what was HDC land but it was directly accross the street from it on Cooperstown Road. Allgates' gardens became some of the most significant gardens in the Garden Club of America. I believe his wife was the president of The Garden Club of America.

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1366 on: June 07, 2009, 01:00:19 PM »
"But despite the reports about Mr. Freeman and his supposed plans for a house, ownership of the Dallas Estate immediately passed to Haverford Development Company. In fact, within 11 days of the November article reporting Mr. Freeman’s supposed purchase, the development company had not only secured the Dallas Estate, they had also sold an option on the parcel to Merion Cricket Club. Given this quick turnaround, Mr. Freeman (if he existed) may have been acting clandestinely on behalf of the development company, which was perhaps hoping to avoid having to pay an extortionate sum for land crucial to their deal with Merion."




We can check this particular transfer of the Dallas estate at the Recorder of Deeds at Media, Delaware County, if need be, but I am almost certain that HDC did not excecute an option on that property with MCC in Nov. 1910 as the "Missing Faces of Merion" essay states above. I believe HDC probably had an option with Freeman to purchase the Dallas estate while almost simultaneously reaching an AGREEMENT (not a purchase) with MCC to purchase it (along with 96 acres from the 140.137 Johnson farm (21+96=117)) in the coming months. As we know on Dec. 19, 1910 Horatio Gates Lloyd would take title to the Dallas estate (21 acres) along with the entire Johnson Farm (140.137) which together made of the entirely of his 161 acre Dec. 19, 1910 deed. Within approximately seven months (Dec, 1910-July 1911) Lloyd would transfer 120.1 acres of that 161 acre Dec. 19, 1910 deed to MCCGA.

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1367 on: June 07, 2009, 01:17:03 PM »
Here's the November 4th, 1910 Philadelphia Inquirer Story that spells out the details of the Dallas Estate purchase by James A. Freeman for 25K, compliments of Joe Bausch.

It seems Mr. Freeman got the land for a bit of a steal, at just under $1200 an acre.   The adjoining land of the Johnson Farm had recently been sold to Connell's group for $1500 an acre.





Here's the article from August 11th, 1910, when Freeman first optioned the Dallas Estate Property. 

It's interesting how the article mentions the only land that HDC really owned at even that late date, the 140 acre Johson Farm.

The rest of their holdings were all optioned, almost certainly with contingencies.




Tom Paul,

Yes, the magnificent Allgates was already under way at this time, which would provide all the more incentive for Lloyd to try and move the rest of this land deal on this particular site quickly to adoption.

I have always wondered why Macdonald's seemingly innocuous and somewhat guarded letter wasn't reproduced for the Board, but one has to think that much as promoters of land deals do today, wanted to accentuate the good and ask questions later.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:28:20 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1368 on: June 07, 2009, 01:29:02 PM »
Mike:

To go even further, there is not much question to me that this entire thing in that area involving HDC, Lloyd, Lloyd purchasing the beginnings of Allgates across the street from the HDC and Lloyd acting on behalf of MCC was a multi-pronged thing that had to happen pretty swiftly. Now I am beginning to see that there may've been movement on land on the southwestern corner of the Merion East property at the bottom of the L perhaps preceding or simultaneous to all this in early to mid 1910 from some people who were either on the board of directors of HDC or stockholders. There's even one who was a member of MCC and would become a Congressman. I'm speaking particularly of Kolb (Director of HDC) and Wilson (who was a MCC member who would become a US Congressman)

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1369 on: June 07, 2009, 01:44:36 PM »
Mike:

To go even further, there is not much question to me that this entire thing in that area involving HDC, Lloyd, Lloyd purchasing the beginnings of Allgates across the street from the HDC and Lloyd acting on behalf of MCC was a multi-pronged thing that had to happen pretty swiftly. Now I am beginning to see that there may've been movement on land on the southwestern corner of the Merion East property at the bottom of the L perhaps preceding or simultaneous to all this in early to mid 1910 from some people who were either on the board of directors of HDC or stockholders. There's even one who was a member of MCC and would become a Congressman. I'm speaking particularly of Kolb (Director of HDC) and Wilson (who was a MCC member who would become a US Congressman)

Tom,

What do you think that means?   Are you talking about the Dallas Estate?

I see where both Kalb and Wilson sold very small parcels to Merion in 1926, so that would mean they had bought sometime prior to then, but Kalb's property was on York Road south of Dallas Estate somewhere near the 7th green, and I'm not quite sure where Wilson's was.   

Could they have caught wind of an impending deal and looking to buy something adjacent in hopes their property value adjacent to the golf course would similarly inflate?


***EDIT*** I just went back and looked and I don't see either Kalb or Wilson with any adjacent land holdings on the 1913 or 1920 Railroad Maps, at least under their own names..
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 02:04:48 PM by MCirba »

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1370 on: June 07, 2009, 03:09:23 PM »
I didn't plan to interfere with this thread but I've got one question, guys.

Does it really matter to the game? Does it even matter to Merion? Is Merion a lesser good course now that you know that the land wasn't purchased until june, 1911 or whatever?



 ???

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1371 on: June 07, 2009, 04:05:45 PM »
"The letter below, which Mike Cirba posted, says just the opposite.
It states that they HAD secured the land PRIOR to November 15, 1910, and that they had chosen that land as early as July, 1910."


Patrick:

The letter mentioned does not say MCC purchased land from HDC in Nov. 1910; it says they had secured the land which means they had an agreement with HDC to buy 117 acres. MCC would not actually purchase land until July 21, 1911, and at that time they (MCCGA) took title to 120.1 acres (an ADDITIONAL 3 acres) out of a larger lot (161 acres) Horatio Gates Lloyd had purchased (essentially for MCC) on Dec. 19, 1910.

TEPaul,

You can't refute the written words from Merion.
They had SECURED the land.
Now you've told us that you were a real estate broker in Pennsylvania.
When someone states that they HAVE SECURED land, that's past tense and indicative of the fact that they are in control of that land, either through deed or option.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1372 on: June 07, 2009, 04:24:56 PM »

"That's nonsense, and, it doesn't matter WHEN it happened, it happened, it became part of Merion's Historical Record.
Thus, the historical record was wrong."


It matters WHEN it happened if anyone is going to try to make some case that Wilson going abroad in 1912 instead of 1910 had some influence over what Wilson and his committee did in 1910 and 1911 as far as routing and designing Merion East.

You've conveniently substituting and confusing the issues.

# 1   The historical record WAS WRONG and REMAINS WRONG today.
        Unless, you're conveniently forgetting that Ulrich told you that Merion has yet to correct this error ?

# 2   We've been told that Wilson wasn't  active on the committee in 1910, so how could Wilson do anything
        with the committee in 1910 as you've alluded to in your above paragraph.

# 3   As we sit here today, Merion's historical record is WRONG.  How can you possibly refute that ?


That is the case that essay tried to make and it is wholly inaccurate!

I don't care about the essay and my comment had NOTHING to do with the essay, it had to do with the FACT the Merion's Historical Record is WRONG.  Stop trying to duck and deflect the issue.   Just admit what everyone knows, Merion's Historical Record is WRONG.


Wilson and his committee did route and design Merion East in 1911 (the Merion record that includes Wilson's report to the board on 4/19/1911 specifically says so).

So now you want to present Merion's documents as the ultimate evidence, but, reject Merion's documents when it comes to them "SECURING" the land ?  You can't have it both ways.

When all is said and done, it may be that Wilson and the Committee routed Merion.
It might also be that they used previous routings as the basis for the final routing.
It may be that they used part of Barker's routing, the five other routings, Macdonald's suggestions, or none of the above.

A, if not THE dilema seems to be that one party has access to relevant documentation and only puts forth portions of those documents to support their position. 

How that gets solved remains to be seen.


The only error in the Merion history was that Wilson went abroad in 1910 rather than 1912 and that story first began probably in the 1970s so there is no way it could've effected what happened in 1910 and 1911 since the story did not begin until 50-60 years AFTER THE FACTS of 1910 and 1911!!

That's your opinion, one that might not be shared by others.

To state that NO other error exists in Merion's entire 100 year historical record seems unlikely.
Time will tell.
/color]

« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 04:29:04 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1373 on: June 07, 2009, 04:54:02 PM »
Mike Cirba,

How did you come into possession of the July 1, 1910 Committee report to the Board ?

Could you please post the balance of the report.

A problem that David Moriarty has mentioned numerous times is that Wayne, TEPaul and youi, selectively release portions of documents to bolster your positions.  I think he has a valid point regarding the "one way" discovery process and the inability to view all the documents, not just the ones conveniently selected.  

Presenting CBM's letter is one thing, maintaining that it's the sole communication between him and the club, even when he was on the property, is preposterous.

The July 1, 1910 report along with Barker's letter clearly indicate that the routing process had begun, and that the routing may have been clearly established, for once the location of the clubhouse is established, so too are the 1st tee/hole and the 18th green/hole.

And, it you've estabished your 1st and 18th hole I don't think it's a stretch to conclude that holes 2-17 were established in A routing.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Merion Timeline - Francis Land Swap Timing Detailed & SOLVED
« Reply #1374 on: June 07, 2009, 06:18:39 PM »
Mike,

No offense to Joe Bausch and his tremendous efforts, but I am growing weary of you posting long discovered documents as if you have just found something novel, like you do above with those snippets concerning the Dallas Estate.   I site those in my essay and we have discussed them as usual on here.     

It is not so much that credit is that important to me, it is that with you we have to cover this stuff over and over again.  As usual you are about a year behind the learning curve.

Also Mike,  you ignored my post above.   According to TEPaul, the Dallas Estate deal was in the works from June 1910.   So your latest theory is wrong.     You guys are jockeying about who can take credit on yet another fallacious theory.

Doesn't it get embarrassing to keep changing the headings on these threads and then not being able to produce?  How many times are you guys going to prematurely celebrate your victory, only later to find out you are wrong?

Imagine had I been so careless with my essay.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)