Tom Doak's Quote from the other thread on greenkeeping

[Kyle Harris]

I was with an old friend yesterday who said he thinks the greenkeeping business will swing back in that direction, too ... that it will be the guys who are willing to go out and get dirty and do their own irrigation fixes in the off-season who will thrive, while the hot-shot managers will struggle when their budgets are cut 30% and they can't pay assistants to do all the work.

I've been wanting to discuss this for over a year now.

In Philadelphia, there is a private club, the likes of which pays assistants/interns salaries.

Those salaries alone exceed the budget of a well-maintained municipal course with an ODG pedigree just up the road.

I've often said that the most talented superintendents out there are the ones at the smaller courses with 6 digit budgets maintaining well-conditioned courses.

[Kyle Harris]

I should have posted more.

It's not my intent to look at this as a better vs. worse argument between both schools of thought, as investing in interns/assistants isn't so much a bad thing. However, this can be a discussion on the case that diminishing marginal returns are in play in regard to maintaining a golf course at a good-decent day-to-day level and then at near "championship" conditions.

What do you guys feels a superintendent should be doing exactly?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Kyle,

I've always felt it was best if I knew how to do everything it takes to care for a course. Part of that is because I worked my way up through the ranks; I got my degree later.

I always cringe when I read about supers complaining about how hard it is to find an irrigation tech or a mechanic. I like training my own. My greatest achievement has been the building and maintaining of Wolf Point with a crew, outside of two very good shapers, who had never even set foot on a golf course before we built it.

I'm old school, but I think supers should know how to do every job on the course, and more importantly know how to teach someone to do it.

At the same time we are challenged to keep up with all the latest greatest. Right now I'm putting in wireless sensors, which I think is one of the better tools to come along in quite some time. But, I still need to know how to calibrate a spreader, fix a mainline break, grind a reel...and set up a golf course.

I'm always surprised when I meet so many of our up and coming turf managers who have no interest in learning the tasks involved in maintaining a course. So many think it’s all about managing and using the latest greatest designer fertilizers and chemicals, as if the basics have lost importance. I think it’s one of the reasons I've had little luck with kids fresh out of college. The best assistants I've ever had are guys who have come up from the crew.
In today’s world, knowing how to do it all may mean you keep your job. I’ve always thought it was important, but now more than ever.

[John Gosselin]

I was with an old friend yesterday who said he thinks the greenkeeping business will swing back in that direction, too ... that it will be the guys who are willing to go out and get dirty and do their own irrigation fixes in the off-season who will thrive, while the hot-shot managers will struggle when their budgets are cut 30% and they can't pay assistants to do all the work.

I've been wanting to discuss this for over a year now.

In Philadelphia, there is a private club, the likes of which pays assistants/interns salaries.

Those salaries alone exceed the budget of a well-maintained municipal course with an ODG pedigree just up the road.

I've often said that the most talented superintendents out there are the ones at the smaller courses with 6 digit budgets maintaining well-conditioned courses.


Kyle, do you know this for a fact and if so which courses are you talking about.

[RJ_Daley]

Don, that is a very thoughtful and well written reply, and from someone who has really demonstrated master competence in his field.  Congratulations!  I also think that part of being a master craftsman or practitioner of any field is the ability and requirement that one is able to effectively teach the craft to others.  I'll bet it is a real educational experience to work under your tuttelege. 

[RDecker]

As a small course superintendent who is his own mechanic, assistant, spray tech, irrigation tech and maybe even my own grandpa  I am only going to appreciate the fact some of the industry brightest minds are recognizing the fact that grassroots, old school hands-on guys are to be appreciated and will ultimately always have a place in this industry/game.

[Stephen Britton]

Whilst I do agree with everything said above and having worked my way up through high end clubs as a crew member, assistant, to now being a Sup at a smaller club, I will say the higher end Sups do have more on their plate in they way of board meetings, greens committees/chairman, high maintenance members and simply being more accessible to the membership than the smaller club guys.

IMO I think you’ll find most of the “good” Sups even at the highest level clubs know how to and can do most of the day to day jobs in the shop and out on the course…

[Tom_Doak]

Stephen:

That was part of my friend's point -- yes, many big clubs with big budgets HAVE wanted their superintendents to dress like pros and attend meetings.  But will they CONTINUE to want to pay for that as budgets get cut and financial pressures mount?  Or would they rather have a guy who will go out and get the job done?

[Leo Barber]

Whilst I do agree with everything said above and having worked my way up through high end clubs as a crew member, assistant, to now being a Sup at a smaller club, I will say the higher end Sups do have more on their plate in they way of board meetings, greens committees/chairman, high maintenance members and simply being more accessible to the membership than the smaller club guys.

IMO I think you’ll find most of the “good” Sups even at the highest level clubs know how to and can do most of the day to day jobs in the shop and out on the course…

Steve

I wouldn't agree altogether with the call that the "high end guys" have more on their plate because I think that is always going to be a tough sell to a guy that is managing the same number of holes for a membership with the same expectations with about a quarter of the budget and a quarter of the blokes and probably a quarter of every other thing that goes into producing the end product. What I would say is that the role of the superintendent has expanded and changed (and it needed to).  I know, and know of, so many Superintendents who have simply failed at their clubs - not based on their knowledge and expertise with regards to turf management or ability with a wrench but their failure to be able convey and sell that expertise and knowledge to the very people that they essentially work for ie Boards/Committees/Members.  The reality is that Greenkeeping has always had perception issues.  The person that hides in his shed delighting in his grease covered overalls and referring to the Greenkeeping Staff as "us" and the Club and its officials as "them" will always struggle and unfortunately will achieve less in the long term.

Every Supers situation is different.  The expectations, the size of the crew etc. the role and so on are different.

I personally enjoy getting out there and leading the crew from the front.  And thats what has been necessary in my situation (and what has been required).  I have found that the guys (and members) have responded better to that and the culture I have developed because of that has ensured that I probably got more productivity out of my guys and achieved a bit more because of it.  But hey, I am the first one to throw on a suit and tie and head off to a board meeting.  I stand up at AGMs/meetings and present my visions or plans for the future.  I wear a clean uniform (dress like the Pro in a sense!) and engage the membership on a daily basis.  That is what the modern Super has to do - well should do(!) - and I think it is those guys that are probably performing the best and have to worry the least.

Claude Crockford use to wear a tie and jacket to work!!!

I agree you will find that most of the best Supers (whether they work at a high end club or not) are pretty proficient at all the day to day stuff hence thats why they are "the best supers" .  I personally have always felt that I needed the other stuff (professionalism/oratory/written word/management/image) in order to be the very best and at the end of the day achieve the things that I needed to in order to present a better course.

Probably getting away from Doaks original statement.   

"I've often said that the most talented superintendents out there are the ones at the smaller courses with 6 digit budgets maintaining well-conditioned courses."

I personally have no problem with it.  When your good your good whether its six digits or seven.  Its all about managing expectation.

 

 

[Dan Herrmann]

"I'm old school, but I think supers should know how to do every job on the course, and more importantly know how to teach someone to do it." - Don Mahaffey.

What more needs to be said?

My course has a guy that can do and does do almost every job.  From strategizing about budgets, to water budgets, to working with the architect (to ensure course changes get his blessing), to running a maintenance shop, to managing staff, to scientific soil analysis, to cutting grass.

He simply loves his job, loves the people at the course (members, guests, employees, the PGA professional staff), and we love him back.

[Stephen Britton]

Tom,

Obviously having a guy that can get the job done is the most important factor, period. And it's obvious that clubs have cut luxury items such as attending GCSAA shows etc, the attendance numbers in Orlando 08 where up around 25,000 and this year in New Orleans they were down around 17,000. Although, I'm pretty sure most good Sups when their budget gets cut and they write their new budgets for the year would voluntarily cut out things like shows, meetings, clothing etc before they would cut their day to day operating budget...

Leo,

You hit the nail on the head, the Superintendents position has always had perception issues. Just because a guy dresses like "a pro" or has an irrigation tech, 2 mechanics and so on, doesn't mean he can't do the job himself if needed to. Also I said the high end guys have more on their plate in the way of board meetings, committees etc.. Not more on their plate overall...

You’re right, it's all about expectation at your own situation.

[Bradley Anderson]

How do you know that the guy who looks clean in the grille room, at lunch, wasn't out moving tee markers or calibrating sprayers that morning?

I find ways to be involved in maintenance but without getting dirty. Sometimes a great way to see the course is spraying greens - you see every square inch of every green, but you don't have to get shit all over yourself doing it. 

[Michael Dugger]

This thread is kinda funny to me.

Guys defending themselves over being clean or dirty. 

The point is simple.   

[Bradley Anderson]

This thread is kinda funny to me.

Guys defending themselves over being clean or dirty. 

The point is simple.   

Michael,

I totally agree. In fact that was the point I was trying to make. Every superintendent has his own style of management, and I think the executive style of management is legitimate. Who says that a good superintendent has to be a working manager? If he wants to work that is fine, but he would probably be just as effective going out and playing a lot of golf on his course. I think it is all about being aware of what is happening everywhere all of the time, and being a good coach of the staff. There are all kinds of ways to do that. That's why we like our profession, because we can approach it in our way.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Bradley,
I'm with you in that there is nothing wrong with an "executive" style.
My point was I believe it's a very good idea to know how to do all the tasks involved in caring for the course.
Whether you do that in jeans or a coat and tie is irrelevant.

I don't think it's the best use of my time to sit on a fwy mower all day or spend hours in a muddy hole dealing with irrigation, but most of us have done it and I remain surprised when I learn about supers who have troubling finding irrigation or shop help.
Duh, good help has always been hard to find and I enjoy teaching someone with a desire to learn how to do some of the more technical tasks required in our profession. I suppose its personal choice more than right or wrong and I understand what works for me may not work for everyone.

[Eric Johnson]

you see every square inch of every green, but you don't have to get shit all over yourself doing it. 

No but, damned if indicator dye doesn't find a way.....

[Ray Richard]

I went from a down n' dirty superintendent to a new style turf manager. While I sat in stuffy rooms listening to accountants and members micromanage my expenditures, I looked out at my scruffy greens crew with a longing for a much simpler life, waking with the sun, watching heavy dew cover the turf while an eagle snagged a trout. I remember the constant interplay between nature and me, not a life dealing with club politics. I made more money as a manager, but my lifestyle didn't justify the added cash.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

This is certainly an interesting topic.

In my third year as a Superintendent I feel I am finally beginning to find a positive balance between the work I do on the course and the work I delegate. My first season I may have personally done a lot of work but my management suffered because I was trying to DO too much. As time has gone on I have turned over most of the day to day stuff to my Assistant. This has made my job much easier and allowed me to concentrate more on the big picture, work on membership communication, and generally take care of the many things that can pull us as Superintendents from the golf course. I still change cups and roll greens a couple of times a week and I always spray greens myself. I do this because, well, I like it but it also gives me a chance to see the things I need to see. I also feel its important for me to know every task backwards and forwards. If I am training a new crew member to walk mow greens I want to be able to show that person the very best way to mow a green. I look at any number of tasks on the course in this manner. I don't perform the tasks from day to day but I sure as hell know how to do them. Reel grinding is another good example. I have a full time equipment manager who takes care of most of that work but he was new about a year ago and came from outside the golf industry. My ability to train him was essential to having him become the mechanic I wanted him to be and he has now become.
I am going to work this season on playing more golf as there really isn't a better way to see the course than to see it from a player's perspective. At my current facility I truly believe I am more valuable to my membership when I am not trying to tackle the day to day tasks. There used to be a strong feeling of the "us" (turfgrass management) and "them" (membership) mentioned earlier in this thread. When I started here I heard it all the time. They won't let us do that. They said they won't get us that piece of equipment. They want the greens topdressed on a certain day. Even vendors would come in and say they had stopped calling on the club because the former Superintendent said THEY would not spend any money on product X. The mentality is now much more "we". Turfgrass management is a part of the club and the membership realizes our importance. If I am always on the course digging holes, or turning wrenches in the shop then a "we" mentally does not exist.

[TEPaul]

What a great bunch of responses.

I'll say it again, other than the few architects on here the supers and maintenance guys on here are our most valuable asset on this website, maybe even more.

Just as even a kneejerk reaction I'm just fine with the always clean and well dressed type of "executive" looking super but for some reason the generally dirty looking super makes me feel better. Our super is the down and dirty type most of the time. He and his first asst come to all the Green Committee meetings obviously and they give a lot of the reports and input but they seem to sort of dress up more for them than I wish they would.

In the future, I'm going to recommend that they don't take a shower or shave for a week before our Green Committee meetings, and roll around in the dirt for a while before coming into those meetings.

At which point I will announce to the Green Committee:

"Hey Bob and Nate, what the hell have you been doing, sleeping with your baby instead of your wife?"


Kyle Harris:

Do I have to ask you why you came over here the other day dressed like a bank president with a bright red power tie on rather than a down and dirty water tech guy? Even your beard----I mean come on it was so immaculate it looked like you went to see one of those New York City $295 an hour wall climbers for a trim! 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle Harris:

Do I have to ask you why you came over here the other day dressed like a bank president with a bright red power tie on rather than a down and dirty water tech guy? Even your beard----I mean come on it was so immaculate it looked like you went to see one of those New York City $295 an hour wall climbers for a trim! 

Tom:

We'll never convince your sister to allow you to build Featherfield Experimental Golf Club if you keep bringing in the Western PA riff-raff like Jim Nagle all the time.

[JSPayne]

I concur with much already commented on by fellow superintendents on this site. However, I will say this:

The courses with higher expectations, and commitment to growth and improvement, which often offer the higher salaries for superintedents, should want and get a more "executive" type superintendent.

I've worked for a couple of these higher-end private facilities, and was never uncomfortable with the fact that my boss always dressed up in nice slacks and a tie. The mentors I learned under showed me their expertise in this field by expert hiring and finding the right people to do the "dirty jobs" for them, then continue to teach and train those like me working up the ranks. The boss never needed to get dirty, but I knew he knew his stuff because there's no way he could manage the persons who did train me without being an expert in being able to evaluate the work they were doing.

That being said, I'm also personally experiencing this dilemma now at my own course. We're not higher end, but we have had healthy budgets in years past and have always invested in capital and improvements. With the current cutbacks, my assistant has become my mechanic, and I've taken over most all normal assistant responsibilities. Having to get out and get dirty more often (though I don't mind it at all) has given me much less time to focus on improvement projects and future planning, and required that I just be satisfied with maintaining the higher day to day course detail expectations and less on needed and sometimes necessary improvements to the course. Should times get better, I would hope to be able to increase my staffing levels, put people I've now trained into trainer positions, and give myself more time to focus on planning and overseeing course improvement projects. But for now, I'll keep fixing irrigation leaks and spraying and mowing greens as my more primary job positions.

Clubs that can afford to hire a superintendent with the skills to lead by example, with enough budget to hire quality crew leaders for key positions and free their time up to looking ahead and striving to constantly make improvements to the course as opposed to a course that can only afford (or even just wants) to hire "a superintendent that likes to get dirty" will definetely reap more benefits.

We all like to get dirty, it's the nature of our job, but it's much more fun to roll around in the the topsoil of a new construction or rennovation project you've planned than the mud hole of an irrigation break you knew was going happen but never had time to correct because you were too busy having to mow fairways.

[CBFriars]

I don't comment often...but I will say i agree with Tom and Kyle.  Going from a golf course with 40 crew members and budgets exceeding 2 million for 18 holes, I much prefer my six figure budget and smaller crew.  I get more satisfaction trying to make one dollar look like two.  Having experienced both extremes, this smaller budget has made me more frugal, patient, and most of all it challenges me to find creative solutions to problems. I missed changeing cups, fertilizeing, spraying, etc.  It has brought me back to the initial reason why I got into this field and I feel I'm a better Superintendent.   

[paul cowley]

After reading through some very interesting responses here, I couldn't help noting the many similar comparisons to the Golf Designer/Architect's world......and of who, and what kind of style and construction model, is going to emerge on the other side?

[JohnH]

It's even more fun with a 5-digit maintenance budget.  My goal is to see if I can get dirtier than the day before...

[Bradley Anderson]

In my experience, the real factor between down and dirty and executive style management is less about the golf course than it is about the irrigation system and the ornamentation.Those two items can require a lot of delegation and oversight.