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Joe Bausch

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Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson
« Reply #575 on: May 08, 2009, 02:26:16 PM »
Perhaps the title of this thread could be changed to "AWT chats with CBM".   :)

My cache of newspaper articles is rather large.  Sometimes I go and gather up a writer's articles for a large period of time, but then reading all them in detail sometimes doesn't happen until days, weeks, or months later!  Recently I decided to organize the Tilly articles from around April, 1911 until early 1912 in the Public Ledger that I gathered up months ago .  In one of those large articles was this tidbit that might just jumpstart this thread (not like it needs much help normally).   ;)

This from the May 14, 1911 edition of the Public Ledger:

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:44:42 PM by Joe Bausch »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #576 on: May 08, 2009, 03:35:25 PM »
Great find again, Joe!

Interestingly, the timeline of the article is right after he visited Merion on April 6th, 1911, and helped the Committee to pick out the best of the five plans they were considering that they had created after their return from NGLA.

Macdonald would have definitely known of the proposed holes at that time, so it's consistent with all the known timelines.

I also find it of great interest that Tillinghast had such close personal conversations with Macdonald about Merion's new course yet was also a strong and staunch advocate of giving Hugh WIlson full design credit for that course.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:45:22 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #577 on: May 08, 2009, 03:48:03 PM »
For your information there is also a letter from Russell Oakley to Hugh Wilson that mentions Macdonald had stopped in at the US Dept of Agriculture and also mentioned that he thought Merion East would be a fine course.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #578 on: May 08, 2009, 05:14:10 PM »
Thanks Joe.

Is this the 3rd or 4th publication in which AWT wrote about his conversation w/ CBM re Merion.  I  assume that they are all based on the same conversation, but haven't matched up the dates in a while. 

If I recall the others correctly, this one is worth noting for a few related reasons:

1.  Despite much speculation about AWT as an all-knowing insider at Merion, it seems his source of information about the course is not from Merion, but is CBM. 

2.  In fact it doesn't seem that as of the time he spoke to CBM, AWT had even been to the course to see the layout.

3.  AWT writes that it would be only natural for CBM to be bragging about the course, given his level of involvement.     It is almost as if he was talking about one of his own . . . . Nahhhhhh, I must be reading it wrong.   

4.    CBM has been "very active in working with the Committee."    Let me me save us some time on this last one . . . .

. . . This cannot possibly mean anything more than that CBM is merely offered them passive advice, because we have know all along that this is all that happened,  and it is outrageous that  anyone would suggest otherwise, and if anyone did welll then they are  a fool and a liar, and should be ignored, and if anyone won't ignore them well then they really don't understand much about a history of Merion that we know and have always known some of us ought to seriously consider whether they even belong on this website.

There, now can we skip the discussion and move on?


__________________
Mike,

If I recall correctly, I don't think you description of AWT's 1930's statement is accurate in words or context.   Do  you mind pulling it up so we can see what he said?  I don't presently have access to my copy.   

Thanks. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #579 on: May 08, 2009, 08:37:47 PM »
". . . This cannot possibly mean anything more than that CBM is merely offered them passive advice, because we have know all along that this is all that happened,  and it is outrageous that  anyone would suggest otherwise, and if anyone did welll then they are  a fool and a liar, and should be ignored, and if anyone won't ignore them well then they really don't understand much about a history of Merion that we know and have always known some of us ought to seriously consider whether they even belong on this website."



That is just another pretty pathetic and close minded rant that gets this site and these Merion threads precisely nowhere!


I have just never been able to figure out WHY someone like you, David Moriarty, can't understand that IF C.B. Macdonald actually said something positive about someone else's or some club's golf architecture that does NOT necessarily mean that he designed it or was the "DRIVING FORCE BEHIND IT  ::)----as you unfailingly imply and often contend on this website!

Why is that? What really is your deal or your philosophy in this particular vein??

I think as some have suggested to me and others, perhaps now we should turn to NGLA ITSELF and start investigating what the PROOF is that Macdonald ROUTED and designed all of it or WHO CAME UP WITH WHAT in detail on anything that was done on THAT golf course ORIGINALLY!!   ;)

Are YOU ready for THAT!?

AGAIN, why do you suppose that is?    ???

My bet is you wouldn't have the vaguest idea how to handle a subject like that one!    ;)

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 08:44:57 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #580 on: May 08, 2009, 09:38:30 PM »
Mike,

If I recall correctly, I don't think you description of AWT's 1930's statement is accurate in words or context.   Do  you mind pulling it up so we can see what he said?  I don't presently have access to my copy.   

Thanks. 

David,

Here it is.   I'd also use "Far and Sure"'s words, but Phil doesn't agree, but I think a look at the American Cricketer article is relevant, as well.

"There was peculiar pleasure in revisiting Merion after an interval of years for I have known the course since its birth.  Yet, with it all, there was keen regret that my old friend Hugh Wilson had not lived to see such scenes as the National Open unfolded over the fine course that he loved so much.   It seemed rather tragic to me, for so few seemed to know that the Merion course was planned and developed by Hugh Wilson, a member of the club who possessed a decided flair for golf architecture.  Today the great course at Merion, and it must take place along the greatest in America, bears witness to his fine intelligence and rare vision.” - A.W. Tillinghast, 1934

"...I wish to say that I believe Merion will have a real championship course, and Philadelphia has been crying for one for many years.   The construction committee, headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson, has been thorough in its methods and deserves the congratulations of all golfers." - A.W. Tillinghast, "American Cricketer", Jan 1913.

There is no mention of Macdonald.

For anyone who still believes that Hugh Wilson was simply a "constructor" to Macdonald's plans, it does beg the question of why Tillinghast thinks "all golfers" owe him deserving congratulations!   

It seems to me a relevant question after hearing about their in-person discussions would be why Tillinghast never credited Macdonald with the design, especially living in Philadelphia for the next few decades as all press accounts credited Wilson.   Why do you think Tillinghast never set the record straight, even in his own ubiquitous writings?

Tillinghast also claimed in April 1911 to have "seen the plans".   Why wouldn't he have credited Macdonald if he was indeed deserving?

Are there any other courses Macdonald designed that you know of where Tillinghast refused to give him proper credit?

« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 09:47:07 PM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #581 on: May 08, 2009, 10:35:40 PM »
What'd ya think?  Did I get it about right, or what? 

TEPaul,

If you dig through past threads, you'll see that I have long had a deep interest in NGLA, going well back before I started looking into Merion.  I started many a thread on NGLA related topics, and some were quite long and more than a little controversial.    But generally people are glad to openly discuss NGLA, and so there is no battle between those who think they already know and those who are trying to figure it out.   That's what these Merion threads boil down to, isn't it?  Those who think they already know everything trying to shut up those who are trying to figure it out for themselves?

Anyway I have looked into NGLA more than you realize, and will probably have more to say about it at some point, but I doubt it will be controversial to anyone but the usual suspects.   Plus record there as I understand it is much less murky.   My understanding is that Charles Blair Macwood and Henry James Whigham went out on horseback and found the Alps, then turned around and saw what they considered to be a perfect Redan, and things went from there.   

Interesting the same two guys were wondering around Merion a few years later.   I have often wondered what specifically they thought during their July 1910 inspection of Merion.   And we we can't forget that Barker had already inspected the land and planned a rough lay out.  What are the chances that CBM and HJW wouldn't have been given Barker's rough sketch. They were keen on the land behind the clubhouse, so it is easy to imagine that they found that terrific natural green site for the short hole.   CBM and HJW mentioned using the quarry in their June letter, but I wonder what specifically they had in mind?  Wouldn't you agree that the 17th and 18th must have jumped out at them, especially given the location of the clubhouse?

But I am getting ahead of myself.   I sure hope we can get past this preliminary stuff soon so we can finally start in on the interesting stuff!



Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #582 on: May 08, 2009, 10:44:31 PM »
David,

Didn't Barker's routing only assess 100 acres?   Are we even sure what 100 acres that Connell controlled at the time Barker was looking at?  Why would Connell have provided Macdonald with a copy of the sketch if Connell was hoping to have Barker do the work?

Also, you don't have to speculate at all what Macdonald thought about after his June 1910 visit.

He spells it all out very clearly in his single page letter.

He goes on to tell them the land will maybe, probably accommodate a sporty, 6000 yard course, and even discusses rote hole lengths that will make up the distance, questions whether the 117 acres they are looking at at that point are large enough for even that, and recommends they buy an obvious additional 3 acres adjacent to the clubhouse and railroad tracks.

He also gives them some advice on who to ask about inland agronomy.  Do I need to reproduce the letter here again?

The rest of your post is pure speculation unsupported by any facts or documentation.

In fact, it's worse than that because it flies in the face of his own exact words and impressions from that day.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:06:13 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #583 on: May 08, 2009, 10:55:01 PM »
"But generally people are glad to openly discuss NGLA, and so there is no battle between those who think they already know and those who are trying to figure it out.   That's what these Merion threads boil down to, isn't it?  Those who think they already know everything trying to shut up those who are trying to figure it out for themselves?"


No, David Moriarty, there is really no difference at all between those people who truly know most everything there is to know, at this point, about NGLA and Merion and those who don't. The only difference I've ever been able to see on this website is a few such as yourself have challenged those who know most of what can be known about Merion and noone, such as yourself, has challenged those who know most about NGLA?

That in and of itself is of course very interesting!   ;)

You or anyone else on here should probably challenge those who know most everything there is to know about NGLA, at this point, and both you and everyone else might see there is no more to be known in detall about who did what specifically at NGLA as there is to be known about Merion East. We here in Philadelphia told that to Tom MacWood over six years ago on this website. Only if he would've accepted our expert opinion in that vein and with that question of his it may've spared this website about six years of unproductive argumentation with people such as yourself!

TEPaul

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #584 on: May 08, 2009, 11:03:22 PM »
"My understanding is that Charles Blair Macwood and Henry James Whigham went out on horseback and found the Alps, then turned around and saw what they considered to be a perfect Redan, and things went from there."



Moriarty:

That is a slip between tongue and lip or motivation and mind or mind and expression that is both Truly revealing and Truly hilarious in about equal measure.


CHARLES BLAIR MACWOOD indeed you GCA challenged idiot!   


Perhaps the best place for you to ply your uninformed albeit opinionated theories is on Tommy Naccarato's new website "salon". If ever there is a place that a bunch of no-count, back-stabbing, know-nothings hangout in a collective and on-going mental masturbation session, that one has got to be it.

Have FUN!




« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 11:15:10 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #585 on: May 08, 2009, 11:57:56 PM »
"My understanding is that Charles Blair Macwood and Henry James Whigham went out on horseback and found the Alps, then turned around and saw what they considered to be a perfect Redan, and things went from there."



Moriarty:

That is a slip between tongue and lip or motivation and mind or mind and expression that is both Truly revealing and Truly hilarious in about equal measure.


CHARLES BLAIR MACWOOD indeed you GCA challenged idiot!   


Perhaps the best place for you to ply your uninformed albeit opinionated theories is on Tommy Naccarato's new website "salon". If ever there is a place that a bunch of no-count, back-stabbing, know-nothings hangout in a collective and on-going mental masturbation session, that one has got to be it.

Have FUN!


The Macdonald/MacWood slip is pretty funny.  I must connect them in my mind because of the deplorable treatment both have received around here.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 12:03:03 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #586 on: May 09, 2009, 07:17:48 AM »
"The Macdonald/MacWood slip is pretty funny.  I must connect them in my mind because of the deplorable treatment both have received around here."






MikeC:

Has Joe found any old newspaper articles that if parsed in a certain way imply Charles Blair MacWood routed Merion East or was the driving force behind it? If so I hope he coughs them up like yesterday as the last thing I want to see happen next is for us or Merion to minimize Charles Blair MacWood's contribution to the great Merion East.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM
« Reply #587 on: May 09, 2009, 09:27:47 AM »

MikeC:

Has Joe found any old newspaper articles that if parsed in a certain way imply Charles Blair MacWood routed Merion East or was the driving force behind it? If so I hope he coughs them up like yesterday as the last thing I want to see happen next is for us or Merion to minimize Charles Blair MacWood's contribution to the great Merion East.

Tom,

Yes, we have found some evidence of that, but it's a rather sad tale to be honest, probably not worth repeating.

You see, if I have the right guy in mind, this particular CBM was a bit slow on the uptake as regards his architectural understanding of Merion, and even by the 1970's was still struggling with the very basics of the club, incuding apparently the spelling.   ;) ;D


« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 09:42:03 AM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Alex Findlay Meets with Hugh Wilson / AWT chats with CBM New
« Reply #588 on: May 09, 2009, 03:09:57 PM »
"You see, if I have the right guy in mind, this particular CBM was a bit slow on the uptake as regards his architectural understanding of Merion, and even by the 1970's was still struggling with the very basics of the club, incuding apparently the spelling."



Michael Cirba, Expert GCA researcher/writer:


You know you are some expert on this stuff or else you're just danged lucky. That guy holding the MEH sign is actually about halfway home in discovering who REALLY designed Merion East.

Due to this issue of Merion's move and all this claptrap about Macdonald's far more significant part in it has got me and Wyno, I mean Wayno, researching as well the entire move and real estate development to the west and who all was responsible for the whole shebang. For this I have gone way, way back, before basically the PRR got into a sort of general master plan of creating the over all Main Line which was previous the 40,000-50,000 or so acres of the so-called Welsh tract (a bunch of Welsh immigrants prevailed upon William Penn to carve it out for them) back in 1685. But even before that and before Penn the land belonged to the Lenni-Lenape indian tribe and it was called Mehrion by them!!!!

So you are onto something there pal and I have also found that it looks like the first golf course on this site was designed by one Lancelot Lenni-Lenape, the ninteenth son of Chief Armaggedon "Big Gnads" Lenni-Lenape!!!

I believe Lancelot Lenni-Lenape might have been the first golf course architect in history and certainly with an inland golf course. I used to think Fernandina Beach Municipal's Timucuan indian architect, Tommy Birdsong, was the only American indian golf course architect but apparently Lancelot Lenni-Lenape was the first and had TommyB beat out by maybe 300-400 years.

I was just over at Merion and had I known this I would've told the president who I saw over there that Merion should now consider renaming the club Mehrion Golf Club to honor Lancelot Lenni-Lenape and instead of saying they are 113 years old they can now say their golf course is around 437 years old. 

Matter of fact, Wayne and I were down in the quarry on #16 and we saw an old carving on one of the quarry walls of the former "Quarry Hole" at Merion obviously conceived of by Lancelot Lenni-Lenape and his tribe of amateur scout designers back around 1572. The green was in the same place it is today but you had to hit the approach shot over the top of the quarry wall that made the green totally blind. I guess Lancelot had some of his dad "Big Gnads" balls because obviously there was none of this "visibility" crap that some of these pale-faced pussys like Wilson and Francis et al got into about three plus centuries later when for some damned reason they felt it necessary to blow the top of the quarry wall off so golfers could see something of the green.

Matter of fact, the carving of the hole on the quarry wall was labeled "The Poconock hole" which was probably Lenni-Lenape for "Alps."

You're a genius Michael Cirba. You and your Uber-mole Bausch will go far in this business!   


I also want you to know Mr. Cirba, and on another matter, that in the last 39 hours I have found a letter from one Walter Travis to one Purvis P. Pruffrock that is totally fascinating. It seems Purvis P. was the town of Southampton's most notorious drunk and over-all idiot but like people of that ilk are wont to do he had his ear to the ground out there better than anyone did (I suppose he was the best at having his ear to the ground out there because the truth of it is that most of the time his ear actually was on the ground!). Travis wanted to know what the word in the town was on himself amongst the Southampton towns-people because it seems Walter had been hammering a really hot little Shinnecock indian gal beginning about 1902 and damned if they didn't go out on that Sebonak property C.B. et al would end up buying a few years later to create the great NGLA. It seems from the letter Walter and his little sweetie had been out on that Sebonack property doing their thing perhaps hundreds of times and through all that wandering around and cavorting in the mulberry bushes and such with little Sallyo Shinnecock, Walter had routed and designed NGLA between otherwise utilized bursts of energy. It seems like Charlie Macdonald swiped Walter's routing and design plan for NGLA from him and attempted to make it look like he did it himself. Nothing of the kind! Walter Travis was the person who routed NGLA and when he told Macdonald he was going to go public with that information Charlie up and summarily fired his ass from the original NGLA committee that included Charlie and Whigam. I used to think that the tiff between Travis and Macdonald had something to do with a misunderstanding over the Schnectedy Putter issue but apparently not; the whole thing was over Charlie trying to take credit for Walter's NGLA routing and design plan. And all this doesn't even take into consideration that Walter probably knew those great holes abroad a ton better than the self-promoting C.B. ever did!

And Matter of fact, in that letter Walter mentioned to Purvis P that little Sallyo said that Walter should also claim he was the driving force behind that golf course because damned if she wasn't living proof and testimony to that fact on that thar land!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 03:51:35 PM by TEPaul »

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