Thoughts on Quail Hollow?

[Mark Bourgeois]

This course deserves more discussion than it's gotten on here.  Its laudable refusal to play the rankings game may be part of the reason, but given that four days a year the course is beamed around the world we have the opportunity to see it in at least two dimensions.

General thoughts on the layout or comments on specific holes?

Mark

[CJ Carder]

This is easily one of the top 10 weeks on TOUR for me each year - I really enjoy watching this golf course.  As a first comment, I love the short par 4's and the last par 5 on the back with the large bunker right in front of the green.

Does anyone have any pictures to share?

[Mark Bourgeois]

And a short 4 precedes that last par 5.  Both tee shots require the golfer to decide how much he wants to challenge the water.

Unfortunately I don't have pics -- there are pics on the tournament website but unfortunately they stink.  There are two interesting takeaways however:

1. The greens offer far more interest than the pictures suggest.  There is a lot of movement and they are sectioned.  The knock is they might be considered an example of ANGC-itis, particularly given its birth during the Palmer-induced "coming out" of ANGC.

2. This picture of the 1st suggests how it plays differently for the pros and the hacks:


The bunker inside the dogleg from the pro tees appears blocked by trees, but from the member tees you don't think about the trees but the bunkers.  This is accomplished via the location of the pro and amateur tees, suggesting that rumors of the demise of angles due to modern technology may be premature.

Note the difference in angles according to tee:


Mark

[Ed Oden]

I only have a few pictures which I think I have posted here before but will do so again just in case.

The approach to the terrific short 14th, one of the scariest little shots you will ever encounter...


The approach to the downhill 16th, a very tough hole that I am always amazed how easy the pros make it look...


Bailing out right on the 17th seems appealing until you have to play your chip from a downhill lie to a lightning fast green running away from you straight toward the water...


The approach to the 18th, which is one of the best finishing holes I've seen anywhere...


In my opinion, Quail is a wonderful track that compares very favorably with a number of other bottom half of the top 100 courses I have played.  In particular, the back nine is truly outstanding.  However, I think there are a few too many indifferent holes on the front side for the course to be considered among the best.  As Mark mentioned, the greens are absolutely fantastic, with a nice mix of both bold and subtle contours.  And there are all kinds of interesting and challenging recovery shots when greens are missed.  My only minor complaint about the place is that they are constantly tinkering with the course and, in my opinion, not always for the better.  For example, the 8th hole has been changed several times I believe in an effort to entice the pros to try and drive the green.  While they may have been successful if that was the goal, I don't think the current iteration of the 8th is as good as previous versions.

Ed

[PCCraig]

I find it amazing that everyone is talking about this course for a major or Ryder Cup.

That being said the course reminds me alot of Forest Creek - South.

[Jim Franklin]

A friend of mine that is a member there told me he was disgusted that Quail was #18 in North Carolina so rankings are important to the membership. I was actually blown away that it was that low. I think it moved to #8 in the most recent ranking, but I still think it is better than that. It is a fun, challenging course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ed

Thanks for the pictures.  14 is a nice example of how the design fits into the strategic school of design.  Off the tee, aggressive means challenging the lake, not in the sense of a forced carry but owing to where you have to hit your drive plus the slope of the hill.

Taking the conservative route however sets up a shot like that in your picture, downhill to a green falling away from you with water in the back.  Get too conservative on the approach and you could end up in the bunker.

As I have written on here before, I put this course in the same category as TOC, Royal Melbourne, ANGC, and #2.  It is not as good as any of those, but it is of that style.

I will say of the courses I have played in NC I prefer it to all but #2.

What would you think about maintaining the left side of the stream in the approach area on 18 as fairway instead of rough, not necessarily for the pros but for every day?  If the slope is too much over there, then as a sort of "furry fairway" ie less than rough?

Jim, I sure hope your friend sees that as the magazines' problem and not the club's.

Mark

EDIT: Ed, I agree 8 green does not fit with the others out there and is a mistake.  But that doesn't mean it's not fun to putt!

[Ed Oden]

Pat, to my eyes, Quail Hollow bears very little resemblance to Forest Creek South.  Quail's appearance and play is more like ANGC while Forest Creek is befitting of its location in Pinehurst.  Rumors about Quail nabbing a major or Ryder Cup have been around for several years.  I don't doubt that Johnny Harris would love to have one (or both). 

Jim, the NC state rankings are an absolute joke.  I am surprised Quail would even care.  That being said, I can't think of 5 courses in the state that are better than Quail.

Mark, I believe left of the stream on #18 is maintained as fairway for normal play.  You can see it is cut that way in my picture.  However, I haven't been out there this year yet so I don't know whether anything has changed.

Ed

[Roger Wolfe]

Its an immaculate course on an incredibly beautiful piece of land and a joy to play.  I would stack it up against anything in North Carolina.  I don't understand the ranking.  My only guess is that the "rank-ers" are denied access.

[Carl Johnson]

As a Charlotte resident I've visited Quail Hollow a number of times, including yesterday, for Wachovia/Quail Hollow Championship (and many years ago for the Kemper Open).  I've never played the course, but here are several observations from the spectator's point of view.

The hole I like to watch the best is No. 7, a par five.  I have a friend who's a member at Quail Hollow who thinks No. 7 is too short and too easy for the pros.  However, from the spectator's standpoint I think it's an exciting, risk/reward hole.  The entrance to the green is narrow, there's water down the right, and there are bunkers in play off the tee.  From behind the green you can see all the action except off the tee.  Most of the guys can get there in two with a good drive, but yesterday the pin was on a fairly small platform front left, not an easy target.  Tiger was on the platform but maybe 20/25 feet behind the hole and made a two-putt birdie.  Furyk's second found the right front bunker but he got up and down for his birdie with a great putt.  My recollection is that Toms was in a bunker off the tee, laid up and got a par.  On the other hand, in a group I did not see, Villegas and Vijay Singh both bogied.  I understand their second shots found the water to the right of the green.  So, it's not that easy.  Later, Mickelson chipped in from a collection area left of the front of the green for an eagle.  Unfortunately, I'd moved on from No. 7 by that time.

No. 14, a driveable par four for many of the pros, is also a nice spectator hole.

The course has what I'd call an ANGC look, though with many more trees.  It's overseeded for the Championship, with incongruous pine needle beds around the trees, which are mostly deciduous.  I'd be curious to see how the course plays, and how the players would like it, later in the year when the Bermuda grass is up.  It's what I call a big course, a tournament course.  I'm not sure how, as an average player, I'd like it as a day-in and day-out club course.  Also, I'm not so sure about the "stream" along the left side of No. 18.  I put "stream" in quotes because it's artificial.  I have mixed feelings about it

As far as rankings go, it just has to be one of the top couple of courses in North Carolina.  I don't know the politics of the rankings game, but that must have an impact.  This is the kind of situation that helps you keep the rankings in perspective. 

[Ed Oden]

Carl, I think Quail would be terrific as an every day course.  The rough isn't particularly brutal and the fairways are plenty generous.  As long as you pick the right tees and don't have a bad day on the greens, an average player can shoot a decent score there just as easily as most other places.  But let the rough grow a bit, speed up the greens and play the Championship tees and it is a test for the best players in the world.  Is that the mark of a great course?  Maybe not exclusively, but its a pretty good start.

As for the "stream" on 18, regardless of whether you like the look, it is a GREAT strategic hazard that influences every shot on the hole.  In order to get the best angle of approach to the green, you need to challenge the creek.  But from an elevated tee, that takes some guts.  And if you play safe and bail too far right off the tee, the bunker and trees are no bargain and bring the hazard back into play again, perhaps even moreso than from the tee.  Plus, that creek seems very unique to me.  While its not unusual to have a creek cross a fairway horizontally, how often do you see one running vertically up the center of a fairway?

Ed

[Carl Johnson]

Carl, I think Quail would be terrific as an every day course.  The rough isn't particularly brutal and the fairways are plenty generous.  As long as you pick the right tees and don't have a bad day on the greens, an average player can shoot a decent score there just as easily as most other places.  But let the rough grow a bit, speed up the greens and play the Championship tees and it is a test for the best players in the world.  Is that the mark of a great course?  Maybe not exclusively, but its a pretty good start.

As for the "stream" on 18, regardless of whether you like the look, it is a GREAT strategic hazard that influences every shot on the hole.  In order to get the best angle of approach to the green, you need to challenge the creek.  But from an elevated tee, that takes some guts.  And if you play safe and bail too far right off the tee, the bunker and trees are no bargain and bring the hazard back into play again, perhaps even moreso than from the tee.  Plus, that creek seems very unique to me.  While its not unusual to have a creek cross a fairway horizontally, how often do you see one running vertically up the center of a fairway?

Ed

Ed, I don't disagree with any of that.  Not having played the course, I'm just less certain for myself.  I'd want to play it to be sure.  One thing I did while walking around yesterday was pay more attention to the location of the more forward tees and try to envision how I might do from those.  Quail appears to have an excellent range of teeing areas.  In several cases the ropes were close enough to the forward teeing areas that I could see on the plates on the teeing ground how long the hole would play from those tees.  No question but that par fours playing from 360 tees would be manageable (as compared with the 460 tees the pros might be playing the hole from).  The tournament itself and the comments from the pros prove it can be set up as a great course for those players, and, yes, if a course can also accomodate everyday play, then it's got a lot going for it.  I agree with the strategy issues regarding the creek on 18.  Still, I'd have to play it myself to see exactly how it would affect my game.

Carl

[Jim Franklin]

Mark -

I hope he understands it is not Quails problem ,but GD's, but you never know. I agree with Ed in that Quail is top 5 in the state.

[Roger Wolfe]

Also, I'm not so sure about the "stream" along the left side of No. 18.  I put "stream" in quotes because it's artificial.  I have mixed feelings about it

I think the artificial creek on QH #18 is a stroke of genius.  Take a close look at the topography of that hole.  It is basically a canyon on three sides.  The huge hill on the left of 10 fairway drains down the left side… both 16 and 18 fairways drain down from the left… even the greens complex drains down to that swale.  If that was NOT a creek, it would be a constantly wet, mushy, low spot that runs for 500 yards.  Instead they have an attractive creek and babbling brook.  I think its great.

Inspired by QH, CGC is most likely going to pipe the well by the bridge on #4 up to the retention pond on #15 so instead of a muddy drainage ditch, you will have a lovely babbling brook.  I wish we could do it to the front of #13… but so far we do not have a well to do it from and probably never will.

[Rob Rigg]

The wee stream on 18 adds a wonderful element of strategy on the hole. It is something to avoid, obviously, but still a game of chance because you can hit a bad shot and avoid it.

Ghost Creek at Pumpkin Ridge also makes very good use of a small stream on several holes, and I think in every circumstance it benefits the hole significantly.

Quail Hollow is a great course to watch the pros play - maybe because the final few holes can be a humbling experience for the best in the world - but I think many of the others provide great excitement and the possibility for a wide range of scores as well.

[Jim Nugent]

Don't know what it says about the course, but driving accuracy does not seem to matter much there for the pro's.   

Tiger has hit 32% of fairways.  Bubba hit 39%.  Phil & McNeil, 43%.  Goosen, 36%.  And they are the leaders.  Comments/explanations, anyone? 

[Greg Holland]

The wee stream on 18 adds a wonderful element of strategy on the hole. It is something to avoid, obviously, but still a game of chance because you can hit a bad shot and avoid it.

Didn't Fazio add this stream when he redid the course around the turn of the century?  As I recall, it was not ranked until the last 5 years or so, Fazio redid the course, and now it is GW top 50 modern. 

Since Fazio did his work, the course has certainly been very well received by the tour pros.

[Roger Wolfe]

Don't know what it says about the course, but driving accuracy does not seem to matter much there for the pro's.   

Tiger has hit 32% of fairways.  Bubba hit 39%.  Phil & McNeil, 43%.  Goosen, 36%.  And they are the leaders.  Comments/explanations, anyone? 

I walked the course on Thursday... there is no rough... period.  It might be listed at 2 inches, but it is very wispy and limp.  They should chance the statistic from "hit the fairway" to "not in the trees."  Not much difference between the fairway and the rough.  Think about it... how else could Bubba Watson be in the lead??

[Carl Johnson]

Don't know what it says about the course, but driving accuracy does not seem to matter much there for the pro's.   

Tiger has hit 32% of fairways.  Bubba hit 39%.  Phil & McNeil, 43%.  Goosen, 36%.  And they are the leaders.  Comments/explanations, anyone? 

I walked the course on Thursday... there is no rough... period.  It might be listed at 2 inches, but it is very wispy and limp.  They should chance the statistic from "hit the fairway" to "not in the trees."  Not much difference between the fairway and the rough.  Think about it... how else could Bubba Watson be in the lead??

Jim,

Roger has it.  As I recall, last year they had a much heavier rough.  This year the organizers said they were going to keep the rough low, but speed up the greens a little with the idea of creating more exciting golf for the spectators.  I wonder if you could compare the same fairway stats from last year for the top finishers and see if there is a meaningful difference.

Carl

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark -

just from very casual veiwing, it's neat that the course allows low scores one day and not another; that Tiger can bridie two of the last three one day and Johnson go 3 over on the same holes the next; and that a leaderboard can have the Watsons and Furyks of the world sharing space.  Must mean something....

Peter

[Matt MacIver]

The stream on 18 adds another great element for all levels of golfers - the chance for a remarkable recovery shot.  I've seen several pros take off their shoes and wade in...I would love to know the stats on how often the recovery shot "works" (as defined by bogey or better?) vs. taking a drop. 

It's a great hazard because you can always find your ball and usually have an option to play it as it lies or take a drop. 

[Tim Gavrich]

What's the point of maintaining that bit of fairway on the other side of the stream on 18 a little short of the green?  Does it play as a par 5 for members with that little second fairway as a preferable approach spot at times?

[Marty Bonnar]

I was going to start a thread on 'The Wee Stream' on 18, so I'm glad to find it already being discussed.

I've noticed it in previous years and quite frankly I'm slightly disappointed with it. Yes, I see it's there and it's pretty-ish and all and it does seem to make players think a bit about where they land their drive and it seems to be shaped well enough to affect the approach, but I still think it's a good opportunity wasted. No Pat, I've never been there but I just have this niggling feeling in the back of my mind when I see it that it SHOULD have been a marvellous DIAGONAL hazard that would bring that slightly odd bit of land on the other side into play somehow.

Maybe asking the player to take it on with the drive rewarding with a bunker-free approach shot or creating a really penal short iron approach? Otherwise to me it just seems a bit, ehm, pointless.

FBD.

[John Nixon]

I was going to start a thread on 'The Wee Stream' on 18, so I'm glad to find it already being discussed.

I've noticed it in previous years and quite frankly I'm slightly disappointed with it. Yes, I see it's there and it's pretty-ish and all and it does seem to make players think a bit about where they land their drive and it seems to be shaped well enough to affect the approach, but I still think it's a good opportunity wasted. No Pat, I've never been there but I just have this niggling feeling in the back of my mind when I see it that it SHOULD have been a marvellous DIAGONAL hazard that would bring that slightly odd bit of land on the other side into play somehow.

Maybe asking the player to take it on with the drive rewarding with a bunker-free approach shot or creating a really penal short iron approach? Otherwise to me it just seems a bit, ehm, pointless.

FBD.

I agree. I think the hole is a good one, but would love to see that spot enlarged to a truly viable option for a landing area.

[Mark Bourgeois]

As Ed O mentioned, a lot of that area is maintained as fairway most of the year, but for some reason I recall rough over there.

As far as the situation of the creek, I'm not so sure about changing that.  I have not yet seen any of the action, but for us chops the challenge is to drive as close to the creek as we are comfortable / foolish.  This is so we can play a better approach angle -- i.e., somewhat away from the stream -- into the green.

One reason I asked about fairway up the left side was to solicit comments about keeping the area left of the creek and green closely mown.  In truth, the slope might not allow that, but if your drive is too far right of the creek, then you effectively must challenge the creek left of the green.

The bailout option is to hit safely left of the creek and pitch up and over.  Closely mown over there makes for a trickier pitch.

Thoughts?

Mark