18 Public Courses for Majors...

« **on:** April 30, 2009, 04:51:12 PM »

Interesting new list published by LINKS online - listed alphabetically, so not playing any favorites...

http://linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/features/public_golf_courses_major_championships_intro.aspx

The Next Bethpage Black?

Arcadia Bluffs Golf Club
Bandon Dunes
Black Mesa Golf Club
Blackwolf Run (River)
Cog Hill Golf & Country Club (Dubsdread)
Erin Hills Golf Course
Fallen Oak Golf Club
Harbour Town Golf Links
PGA West (Stadium)
Princeville (Prince)
Purgatory Golf Club
Renaissance Ross Bridge Golf Resort & Spa
Rustic Canyon Golf Course
Shadow Creek
Spyglass Hill Golf Course
Tradition Golf Club at Royal New Kent
We-Ko-Pa Golf Club (Saguaro)
World Woods (Pine Barrens)

The rating system seems fairly straightforward, but I think it's strange that most courses are dismissed because of location. After all, folks in Great Britain do not seem to mind traveling to Turnberry or Royal Troon, which are not exactly close to a major city.

Lots of newer courses on the list, also... other thoughts? Notable exclusions?

-AJ

« **Reply #1 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:56:43 PM »

I think the inclusion of Rustic Canyon does not take into account the preponderance of environmental areas off fairway.

« **Reply #2 on:** April 30, 2009, 04:59:31 PM »

I wonder why Harding Park in San Francisco isn't included. The City and the PGA Tour spent a bundle to fix that place up for big tournaments.

« **Reply #3 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:02:23 PM »

Not strange to me "location" is included - the way they explain it makes perfect sense to me. Majors are all about logistics.

Good point about Rustic also... but I bet that's included under "location" also.. ie the course is downgraded for this, as that's where the spectators would have to go, and they can't. Even with this downgrade I have to believe it scores high enough on other things to make the list.

Interesting also how many of these - damn near all except Rustic? - are very very high end. Are there any Munis or other low-cost options that could make it? Why no Wild Horse?

And Bill, very good question re Harding. Curious.

« **Reply #4 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:12:08 PM »

Actually Tom, RC gets a 5 for location which is the highest score.

I think the list is kind of a joke and the inclusion of Rustic Canyon is definitely a joke. Even if you got rid of all the environmental areas (which really aren't environmental areas) the rulings you would get at that place would be crazy.

Also, after the whining we heard about the pins at Rustic two weekends ago by the GCA people I can only imagine what the pros would be saying.

And are other major sites only accessible by a single two lane road?

« **Reply #5 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:15:43 PM »

Quote from: David Kelly on April 30, 2009, 05:12:08 PM

Actually Tom, RC gets a 5 for location which is the highest score.

I think the list is kind of a joke and the inclusion of Rustic Canyon is definitely a joke. Even if you got rid of all the environmental areas (which really aren't environmental areas) the rulings you would get at that place would be crazy.

Also, after the whining we heard about the pins at Rustic two weekends ago by the GCA people I can only imagine what the pros would be saying.

And are other major sites only accessible by a single two lane road?

Oh well, it was worth a shot.

Methinks you're right about all of that.

« **Reply #6 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:22:30 PM »

How about Reserve Vineyards South and Pumpkin Ridge the other course?

Didn't Hanse do a public course on a dump in the Boston area?

How about Florida Sand Belt courses near Orlando?

How about Juniper in Redmond OR?

How about La Purisima?

« **Reply #7 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:25:44 PM »

I agree with Blackwolf Run and Cog Hill, not sure about Purgatory.

« **Reply #8 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:37:39 PM »

I just played the new Rees Jones-improved Cog Hill Dubsdread and I'm sorry to say that I don't think it is "major worthy". The course was lengthened to 7550, some of the greens were made smaller and all were rebuilt. One hole was dramatically improved (the dogleg right par 4 #7 hole) and a bunch of trees that negatively impacted play were removed. To my untrained eye, the greens are still too easy to hit for tour players and the bunkers, while a huge visual improvement, don't make the course that much more difficult for pro players. Also, similar to his re-do at Medinah, he seems to have flattened the greens too much for my tastes. It seems like they are designed for major-like speed, so there aren't all that many internal contours on most of the greens, with a few notable exceptions. This means that the greens won't be much of a challenge unless the stimp is in the teens, which will only happen when the tour is on the course. The fairway bunkers are going to be murder for everyday play, however. All in all, a nice improvement, especially visually and definitely tougher for us mopes, but I don't think it's going to persuade the USGA to bring the Open to Cog Hill.

« **Reply #9 on:** April 30, 2009, 05:42:23 PM »

If they really wanted to find the next Bethpage Black, they should look not too far away and get Suffolk County to restore Timber Point. A restored (and of course, lengthened) TP would be fabulous and probably Open worthy.

« **Reply #10 on:** April 30, 2009, 06:15:04 PM »

Forget PGA West, Palm Springs in June is unplayable after 9 am. Some KP participants can verify this.
I would really like to see Spyglass host a major, but wonder about the gallery sizes on that course.

« **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2009, 06:41:04 PM »

The only course I have played on this list is Bandon. Bandon has potential, but I dont think the US Open is quite ready for that, think of all the changes they would want to make first and they would have to reinvent how they prepare for an Open... no graduated rough there!

I think the obvious winner to me is Harbour Town. It is a proven tour venue. It has the history with Arnold winning and Jack in the design. It is a Pete Dye golf course, Pete's courses have held other major events over the years and prove to be very dramatic. #18 has incredible potential for a US Open finish. I think the fact the players are familiar with the course as well is a plus as well, they want to make sure that you know isn't going to complain about fescue fairways or gorse!

The other two on the list that caught my eye were Blackwolf Run, because of the success of the PGA at Kohler, and Shadow Creek, because a US Open in vegas = $$$!

I think you can cross off Princeville, nobody is going to Hawaii in June!

« **Reply #12 on:** April 30, 2009, 07:03:05 PM »

What do you guys think about Royal New Kent? I haven't played the course, but I am a big fan of Strantz.

« **Reply #13 on:** April 30, 2009, 08:06:47 PM »

Good point regarding PGA West.... no way in hell they could play out there in July. Sergio would be complaining that his morning time was hotter than Tiger's.

I find it very interesting that Princeville, Shadow Creek, We-Ko-Pa, and even Harbor town are on the list (especially with Harding missing)

To begin with, I have never been a fan of the Prince course. Seems that people either love or hate the place, but either way I don't see a major ever being hosted on that course... especially considering that it is in the Hawaiian Island (although maybe TV would love that).

As to Shadow Creek, a major in Vegas just seems to be an odd thing to me.... is there any room for corporate hospitality on the property?? I know there are plenty of accommodations around the property, but it doesn't seem to me like there is enough room at the actual course.... also, not exactly much room for the crowds. I have a feeling that course would lose quite a bit of its luster with 45,000 people grazing the grounds. The coolest part about the place is that you usually never see another person during your round and are only a few hundred yards from the heart of Vegas.

We-Ko-Pa?? Not sure how you would be able to get the crowds out there without completely destroying the desert... also, just doesn't seem like a major championship venue. Would they be able to make it play difficult enough? The course would look pretty odd with 10 yards of deep rough on each side of the fairway before getting to the desert?

As for Harbor Town, I just don't see it ever happening just like the other three mentioned above. There are way to many other great courses out there that I would rather see host a tournament. They already have the Heritage and I don't see them getting a major as well. I don't like the way that course plays to begin with, and I can't imagine how much more boring it would get with decent rough and even narrower fairways (is that even possible).

Anyways, they are all interesting courses but I would be willing to wager that they will never see a major in the future.

Is there a reason why Bay Hill didn't make the list? It is a resort, isn't it? Seems like it would be a much better venue than any of the others I discussed above.

« **Reply #14 on:** April 30, 2009, 08:15:38 PM »

Even though the ranking has a category for logistics I really don't think that the magazine thinks there is a prayer that most of these courses could host a real major.

They are simply not going to have a major in Hawaii or Florida or Palm Springs or Las Vegas or most of these places.

« **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2009, 08:37:59 PM »

Quote from: Tom Huckaby on April 30, 2009, 05:02:23 PM

Interesting also how many of these - damn near all except Rustic? - are very very high end. Are there any Munis or other low-cost options that could make it?

Purgatory is < $100. $45 to walk on Mondays and Tuesdays.

« **Reply #16 on:** April 30, 2009, 08:54:24 PM »

David Kelly:

You asked about major sites accessible by a two-lane road.

In fact, there are.

Winged Foot is accessible via Fenimore Road -- a very winding and slow 25 mph road.

Ditto ...

Oakmont via Hulton Road which is less winding but more uP & DOwn,

No doubt there are others ...

« **Reply #17 on:** April 30, 2009, 10:19:18 PM »

But Winged Foot is accessible from two different directions, you can also come in off of White Plains Rd. Rustic Canyon is not - there is one lane in and one lane out.

« **Reply #18 on:** April 30, 2009, 10:29:35 PM »

David Kelly:

My point was that logistically WF has had serious past issues given the nature of the roads that surround the club. It is a tight fit and with today's sheer volumes the local roads make playing future events there problematic.

Significant factors also come into play at Oakmont and even at Merion when venturing through Ardmore Avenue.

By the way TCC -- is also no bargain for access issues.

What's amazing is that BB and even SH -- which many people thought to be an issue -- is far less so.

« **Reply #19 on:** May 01, 2009, 02:03:17 AM »

Quote from: David Kelly on April 30, 2009, 08:15:38 PM

Even though the ranking has a category for logistics I really don't think that the magazine thinks there is a prayer that most of these courses could host a real major.

They are simply not going to have a major in Hawaii or Florida or Palm Springs or Las Vegas or most of these places.

Why not?

If the British Open can be held at Turnberry and the European Tour can move their season-ending championship to Dubai, why wouldn't the PGA and USGA consider venues in Hawaii or the desert southwest?

Other possibilities... Pasatiempo? Quarry at Giants Ridge?

« **Reply #20 on:** May 01, 2009, 04:18:01 AM »

Re: the OP, isn't Troon 30 miles from Glasgow?

« **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2009, 08:53:02 AM »

Quote from: Terry Lavin on April 30, 2009, 05:37:39 PM

I just played the new Rees Jones-improved Cog Hill Dubsdread and I'm sorry to say that I don't think it is "major worthy". The course was lengthened to 7550, some of the greens were made smaller and all were rebuilt. One hole was dramatically improved (the dogleg right par 4 #7 hole) and a bunch of trees that negatively impacted play were removed. To my untrained eye, the greens are still too easy to hit for tour players and the bunkers, while a huge visual improvement, don't make the course that much more difficult for pro players. Also, similar to his re-do at Medinah, he seems to have flattened the greens too much for my tastes. It seems like they are designed for major-like speed, so there aren't all that many internal contours on most of the greens, with a few notable exceptions. This means that the greens won't be much of a challenge unless the stimp is in the teens, which will only happen when the tour is on the course. The fairway bunkers are going to be murder for everyday play, however. All in all, a nice improvement, especially visually and definitely tougher for us mopes, but I don't think it's going to persuade the USGA to bring the Open to Cog Hill.

Terry-

Thanks for the course preview. I didn't think it was actually open yet to the public...did you get a special sneak peak yourself?

It's interesting that Jones made the greens more flat for the pros. Even more interesting is that on his more recent renovation of Bellerive in STL he definatly added more undulation and break to the greens, but those were/are far larger than the average green he had to work with at Cog Hill.

« **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2009, 08:15:44 PM »

Quote from: Adam_Jeselnick on May 01, 2009, 02:03:17 AM

Why not?
If the British Open can be held at Turnberry and the European Tour can move their season-ending championship to Dubai, why wouldn't the PGA and USGA consider venues in Hawaii or the desert southwest?

Can you honestly not think of reasons why the USGA would not hold a US Open in Hawaii or why holding a PGA Championship in Phoenix or Las Vegas in August might not work?

« **Reply #23 on:** May 01, 2009, 08:31:52 PM »

Quote from: Brett Waters on April 30, 2009, 07:03:05 PM

What do you guys think about Royal New Kent? I haven't played the course, but I am a big fan of Strantz.

I love Royal New Kent, but:

Any ball hit online finds a HUGE landing area on most every hole. The course is very visually intimidating for the average players, but better guys eat it up. I wouldn't get any play if it was nearly as hard as it looks.

WW

« **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2009, 10:46:21 PM »

Quote from: wwhitehead on May 01, 2009, 08:31:52 PM

Quote from: Brett Waters on April 30, 2009, 07:03:05 PM
What do you guys think about Royal New Kent? I haven't played the course, but I am a big fan of Strantz.

I love Royal New Kent, but:

Any ball hit online finds a HUGE landing area on most every hole. The course is very visually intimidating for the average players, but better guys eat it up. I wouldn't get any play if it was nearly as hard as it looks.

WW

I am a big Mike Strantz fan also. I'd be curious to see how much tougher the USGA could make the course given that RNK already has a slope rating near 150 and is about 7500 yards from the Invicta tees. Throw in some 4-6 inch rough and roll the greens to a 12-14 on the stimp. It's worth pondering.

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