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John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2009, 05:23:36 PM »
John Mayhugh,

I think Rustic Canyon is a fantastic example of a collaboration involving too much synchronicity with the Merion project to not use it, frankly.   The fact that it's the home course of David Moriarty only makes the point a bit clearer.

The larger point though, is he who is responsible for the project deserves the credit.

Let's hope they also have the good sense to seek advice, as Geoff and Gil did at Rustic Canyon, as CB Macdonald did at NGLA, and as Hugh Wilson did at Merion.

That's all...plus, if you know Tom, you have to admit that some of this was funny.

I'm sure some would find your creative effort to take a dig at David Moriarty admirable, but I don't.  This topic and post are disrespectful to Geoff Shackelford, Jim Wagner, & Gil Hanse.  In your attempt to spread the Merion controversy, you sully the work that they did and drags them into a debate they are not a part of.  I doubt that was your intent, but there are often unintended consequences to things we do.

The right thing to do would be to delete this topic.  Please do that.

Mike Sweeney,
You nailed it (compliments of Larry David, I guess).

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2009, 06:38:32 PM »
I'm sorry John, but unlike some of the humorless folks participating in tbe Merion threads, my bet is that Gil and Jim likely sprayed coffee on their keyboard reading this!

I don't know Geoff well, but enough to say I'm sure he knows I admire his work at Rustic and elsewhere a great deal and he's never seemed to me to be the type to shy from a vigorous debate or refrain from using pointed satire.


TEPaul

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 06:46:18 PM »
"This evidence can't be right. I can not believe that Tom Paul would smoke a light Marlboro. He has to smoke Reds. And I am certain that even in the desert he would not throw a butt on the ground."


BradleyA:

You know I've always felt you were a most prescient guy and that statement proves it in spades. No way I would smoke one of those "Lights" or "Whites" or whatever the hell people call them. I tried one at some point years ago and it was so tasteless I sucked on it so hard I inhaled all the tobacco with the smoke.

But there is no way I'd ever leave a butt on the ground---not ever and not anywhere. I learned that back in USMC boot camp/resort sap at Parris Island, S.C. back in '65. Learned may be too tame a term actually; more like got it beaten into me.

Ever after whenever I finish a cigarrette anywhere I do what they taught me in the Marines----eg rip the filter off the paper, open up the paper, sprinkle the tobacco on the ground, rub it into to the dirt with your foot, roll up the paper into a teenie little ball and put it into your right hand with the filter, squeeze them together tight and then eat it!!!

The idea is the enemy can never know you were there!!

My wife smokes those kinds of white filtered "light" cigarrettes now and then and I have found them lying around outside on the ground a couple of times for which I make her immediately hit the deck and give me a hundred pushups.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2009, 06:49:27 PM »
By the way, I'm probably the world's biggest Larry David and "Curb Your Enthusiasm" fan....was thrilled to learn recently that they've been renewed for this fall.

Now there's a guy who's great with satire and parody! ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2009, 09:17:26 PM »
"This evidence can't be right. I can not believe that Tom Paul would smoke a light Marlboro. He has to smoke Reds. And I am certain that even in the desert he would not throw a butt on the ground."


BradleyA:

You know I've always felt you were a most prescient guy and that statement proves it in spades. No way I would smoke one of those "Lights" or "Whites" or whatever the hell people call them. I tried one at some point years ago and it was so tasteless I sucked on it so hard I inhaled all the tobacco with the smoke.

But there is no way I'd ever leave a butt on the ground---not ever and not anywhere. I learned that back in USMC boot camp/resort sap at Parris Island, S.C. back in '65. Learned may be too tame a term actually; more like got it beaten into me.

Ever after whenever I finish a cigarrette anywhere I do what they taught me in the Marines----eg rip the filter off the paper, open up the paper, sprinkle the tobacco on the ground, rub it into to the dirt with your foot, roll up the paper into a teenie little ball and put it into your right hand with the filter, squeeze them together tight and then eat it!!!

The idea is the enemy can never know you were there!!

My wife smokes those kinds of white filtered "light" cigarrettes now and then and I have found them lying around outside on the ground a couple of times for which I make her immediately hit the deck and give me a hundred pushups.

TEPaul,

It may be just a coincidence, but, didn't you start responding to those Merion threads at the same time you switched to those funny home made cigarettes ? ;D

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2009, 10:29:31 PM »
Mike,
What's the purpose of posting this nonsense?  Can't you get your Merion bickering fix in the Findlay thread? 
Don't you get it, John?   Mike's mockery is important, and therefor justified.    He isnt making just a point, not just a fundamental point, not just an important fundamental point, not just a very important fundameal point, but a "very, very, important fundamental point."   As points go, they just don't get much more very, very importanter or fundamentaler than that!

Never mind that his"very, very important fundamental point" gets us no closer to figuring out what really happened at Merion.  These guys already KNOW what happened, and will be glad to tell us, and we must take their word for it.   And anyone who doesn't look at the facts too carefully can see that my position is ridiculous.  They'd better at least, or these guys will have a problem with you too.  And who the hell am I to question Merion, anyway?   As TEPaul pointed out yesterday, I've never even belonged to a private club, so what could I know about what goes on?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2009, 10:36:50 PM »
David,

Was that an attempt at humor?

If so, thank GOD!!!!   ;D

Phew...

I'd swear we're discussing genocide, or pandemics, or war and terror and torture here sometimes so dour and unforgiving is the dialogue.   ::)

We're talking about FU*K*NG golf courses, and golf course architecture, no matter how passionate and deeply held our feelings and beliefs and no matter how clever our arguments and eloquent our respective tongues.

My lord..let's lighten the load here on all of us.

I can accept that I go over the top and sometimes get very hyperbolic and sentimental.

PLEASE call me out on it.

And you David, can be a real parochical prude and as clever as your arguments are, your trait of not giving one inch or even conceding the most basic of points makes you come across as someone very unlike the person I met in person several times and played golf with and whose company I greatly enjoyed.

Why don't we try to get back to some reasonable place here, despite past transgressions on both of our parts?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2009, 10:38:41 PM »
No Mike, it wasn't an attempt at humor.  You are the joke here.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2009, 10:42:09 PM »
No Mike, it wasn't an attempt at humor.  You are the joke here.

Well, David...I tried.

Carry on your personal mission of trying to embarrass Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison in their own backyard and at their own golf club.

I had really hoped perhaps that I was misinformed in what I had been told...

« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 10:43:59 PM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2009, 10:47:37 PM »
No Mike, it wasn't an attempt at humor.  You are the joke here.

Well, David...I tried.

Carry on your personal mission of trying to embarrass Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison in their own backyard and at their own golf club.

I had really hoped perhaps that I was misinformed in what I had been told...

Give it a rest Mike.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2009, 06:09:12 PM »
Now we have 2 threads to avoid like the plague. Hopefully neither thread makes it over to the new version of the site.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2009, 07:10:39 PM »
Ed,

I'm a bit disappointed that you don't see any humor or irony in the fact that David's primary argument now boils down to the premise that Hugh Wilson was too much of a novice to have routed Merion while playing most of his golf at a course largely routed by first-timer Geoff Shackelford. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 08:52:26 PM by MikeCirba »

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2009, 07:20:56 PM »
On a brighter/happier/who's on 2nd note... Did anyone see the new Links with the coverage of Rustic Canyon as one of 10 Publics that could host a major? Man, I was sooooooooooo impressed with the design and f**k all, if those greens aren't near impossible on occasion ;D ;D ;D

Kudos to Hanse, Shackelford and the rest of the crew... I had no idea of the genius up there in Moorpark ;) ;)
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2009, 09:28:58 PM »
Ed,

I'm a bit disappointed that you don't see any humor or irony in the fact that David's primary argument now boils down to the premise that Hugh Wilson was too much of a novice to have routed Merion while playing most of his golf at a course largely routed by first-timer Geoff Shackelford. 

Mike,
    Sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't read much of the Merion thread in months as it is SO boringly contentious. It is primarily of interest to 3 people none of whom is willing to concede anything or even to acknowledge seemingly valid points. It is like having 3 people scraping their fingernails on a blackboard. Not pleasant.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2009, 09:58:32 PM »
Ed,

I'm a bit disappointed that you don't see any humor or irony in the fact that David's primary argument now boils down to the premise that Hugh Wilson was too much of a novice to have routed Merion while playing most of his golf at a course largely routed by first-timer Geoff Shackelford. 

Mike perhaps in the future our discussions would be less contentious if you would refrain from misrepresenting my arguments and premises as you do here.   Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2009, 10:47:37 PM »

Mike perhaps in the future our discussions would be less contentious if you would refrain from misrepresenting my arguments and premises as you do here.   Thanks.

Ed,

I'm sorry you feel that way.   I too wish that the tone was different because there has been some incredibly wonderful historic info that has come to light and I've also said many times that it was David's essay that caused a bunch of us to dig deeper, finding much more in the rich history of golf in Philadelphia as a result.   In very real terms, it has also helped us to greatly understand the history of Cobb's Creek, where we continue to move forward in our efforts to return that course to something of it's former greatness.

I do credit David with all of that, and wish our disagreements weren't so emotionally-charged and pronounced.

David,

Some of our problem is the fact that we need to be more straight with each other.   You tell me that I'm misrepresenting you, yet this is exactly what you wrote less than a week ago;

"Here is part of a timeline for you that makes quite a bit more sense than yours. . .

- Before NGLA, a bunch of novices trying to make a golf course come up with some plans.
- At NGLA, those old plans are all thrown out the window, and M&W teaches them what they should be doing. "


Your essay stated;

“Wilson,” a rank novice, “had absorbed the principles underlying the great holes, then applied them to the terrain at his command.”  As a result, he created what would become an absolute masterpiece. 

Or so the story goes.  But as is often the case with creation stories, this one is a blend of myth and reality.   In reality, Wilson neither planned the routing nor conceived of the holes at Merion East.  The course was planned months before Merion even appointed Wilson and his “Construction Committee.” Wilson and his Construction Committee were not appointed to design the course or conceive of the holes, but were to do what the name of their committee implies, construct the golf course.  They laid the course out on the ground and built it according to plan.


I don't wish to drag this discussion onto yet another thread, but please don't tell me I'm misrepresenting the position you've consistenly portrayed here for the past number of years.

In fact, your theories about Merion rest on the cornerstone belief that Hugh Wilson simply was incapable of creating the original routing, even with the help of the others members of his committee working at it probably every day for at least 3-4 months.

Given the narrow piece of land that formed an "L", and some of the similarities to Rustic Canyon in terms over lack of overall width on the property, surely you have to see some parallels.



For those of us who sit in some degree of awe at the course that Hugh Wilson created, with additional help from William Flynn and others like the Valentines over the decades, I'm not sure how you expect such language not to be taken very offensively.



ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2009, 11:12:56 PM »
I do appreciate the digging you guys have done. I enjoy reading the articles that you guys have turned up. Unfortunately for every one of those useful posts there are 20-30 posts that rehash old points of contention. I'm waiting for the Cliff's Notes version to come out. ;D
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2009, 11:17:31 PM »
Ed,

Understood, and completely agreed.

I do wish we had more agreement in our collecitive interpretations of info and events, but perhaps the fact we don't has caused us all to unearth more material.   :-\

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