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Mike_Cirba

Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« on: April 29, 2009, 08:29:59 AM »
Think about it.   ;) ;D

Tom Paul, a nationally known, well-experienced amateur playing against the likes of Jay Sigel with years of competitive experience, who had visited and seen all of the best courses along the east coast for decades, who had studied architecture and master-planned changes to Gulph Mills, and who had worked previously on routing a golf course at Ardrossan Farm with the likes of Bill Coore, and even the young Gil Hanse, goes out to California where a young Geoff Shackelford, with absolutely no course building or routing experience of his own, is trying to build a golf course on a narrow plot of land.

Tom flies west to visit, and our story begins...   ;D

A detailed, conclusive, historically speculative, and needlessly inflammatory essay to follow...

« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 08:37:28 AM by MikeCirba »

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 08:38:58 AM »
I thought about it and I have decisively concluded he could not have designed. With 30000+ posts the man has clearly done little else than post on gca for the past decade. Rustic was built during this time I believe.

I have post log manifests to prove it.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 08:42:11 AM »
I thought about it and I have decisively concluded he could not have designed. With 30000+ posts the man has clearly done little else than post on gca for the past decade. Rustic was built during this time I believe.

I have post log manifests to prove it.

Tim,

The fact that Tom has made 30,000+ plus posts over that time begins to prove my point that he is somewhat super-human.

Did you know that he had multiple contacts with both Geoff Shackleford AND Gil Hanse PRIOR to the building of Rustic Canyon, and Gil had even visited Tom multiple times AT HIS HOUSE and HOSTED HIM AT HIS.   Do you find it even remotely believable that they wouldn't have discussed the course routing of Rustic Canyon with Tom Paul at that time?

In fact, Tom was the one responsible for getting Gil Hanse to post on GCA...for a while back then at least.   ;D
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 08:44:58 AM by MikeCirba »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 08:44:14 AM »
We'll need to see some airline manifests to even consider this wild speculation.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 08:46:09 AM »
We'll need to see some airline manifests to even consider this wild speculation.

Oh Bill...believe me...I have proof.   :D

Some of it is even here in the vaults of GCA, in his own words where Tom Paul describes his input on the 12th hole at Rustic Canyon.    ;D

Do you think it's wild speculation that the focus of Rustic Canyon is both MINIMALISM and MAINTENANCE MELD, both concepts that Tom has trumpeted on here for over a decade, and a term that he himself COINED?!?  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 08:53:46 AM »
This is not quite a "Smoking Gun", but I did take this photo at Rustic Canyon on the day it opened.




Also note the maintenance meld with strains of greens and browns intermingled.

Matt_Davenport

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 09:07:17 AM »
Mike,
I can only think that the "Opening Day" evidence that you present would not be the work of our superhuman member. I can imagine Tom would be so blatant to pull a Lone Ranger and leave his silver bullet behind. I have no doubt that Tom's role in the course would be discernible, but physical evidence beyond litter will be required. Tom does possess "stealth" qualities, how else could one man make that many posts ::)
Matt

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 09:08:12 AM »
This is not quite a "Smoking Gun", but I did take this photo at Rustic Canyon on the day it opened.




Also note the maintenance meld with strains of greens and browns intermingled.

That's probably how those disastrous fires started.  Better to leave TEP out of this!

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 09:22:14 AM »
Can't be TEP's.  There's no lipstick on it.  ;D

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 09:36:36 AM »
This is not quite a "Smoking Gun", but I did take this photo at Rustic Canyon on the day it opened.




Also note the maintenance meld with strains of greens and browns intermingled.

This evidence can't be right. I can not believe that Tom Paul would smoke a light Marlboro. He has to smoke Reds. And I am certain that even in the desert he would not throw a butt on the ground.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 09:48:45 AM »
The many site visits to Los Angeles allowed TEPaul to happily reconcile with his long lost brother there in Hollywood.




DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 09:50:32 AM »
As much as TEPaul has waxed philosophically about his supposed influence on the 12th hole, he sure must think he contributed something pretty important.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 10:32:07 AM »
"Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part 1 COMING SOON)?"




Michael C, uber researcher/golf course architecture analyst and essayist supreme:



Go for it big boy----discuss the hell out of it on here-----it doesn't matter a twit what I think or remember!

But if you want to ask me if Shackelford was a novice then and who was about in the same boat at that point with creating a golf course as Hugh Wilson was with Merion East in 1911, I will tell you----well, aaah, hmmm, let me mus-mus on that for a while, aaah, uh, yeah I guess he was about the same kind of novice Wilson was then but he was, in my opinion, Shackelford, that is, about the most talented novice on GCA I've ever run across!  ;)

But wait a minute according to that other fella on here if you're a novice that means you're categorically incapable of routing and designing a golf course, aren't you? Well maybe so but in that case I wonder what that amazing hole by hole notebook he did himself and had with him was all about? Oh well, maybe I was just imagining that; it probably never even existed.

As far as me thinking I contributed something important out there in those two days----not at all. All that was dicussed was the entire concept of the 12th hole, a bunker placement at the green-end of #11 and what-all that could mean strategically, and some about the conceptual arrangement of the approach, green-end and green at I think #14 (or maybe it was #16  ??? ;) ) and what-all that could do strategically in play and otherwise like available space and perhaps drainage and the ramifications of "tying in" construction to what was naturally in that area.

That alone which was one total hole, about 1/10 of another and about 1/4 of another was over about one and a half solid days. I was really amazed when someone out there who sure does know that golf course gave me as much credit as he did for that short amount of time and what we two to three did there at that time. I just didn't see it that way and that is why I keep telling these arguers on here who have never been on sites like that and doing that kind of stuff that they need to do that and quite a lot of it if they are ever going to remotely understand the routing process and what I call the "designing up" phase of some routing.

Basically, it is just not something that can possibly be accomplished in a single day as is what seems to be suggested by one fella on here with Macdonald/Whigam at Merion East back on April 6, 1911. Essentially, it's impossible in that limited amount of time if you want to get something that even remotely approaches what anyone would call good or even passable.

That's just the way it is with GCA guys, but is this fella who thinks it might have been possible or likely with Macdonald/Whigam at Merion East (assuming they were even asked to try that) ever going to understand that or admit it?

I wouldn't bet on it at this point!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 10:56:37 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 11:26:29 AM »
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:41:18 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 11:48:43 AM »
Tom Paul,

You're more modest than Hugh Wilson.

Please give us the straight scoop of how you routed that place in an hour.


Dan Hermann,

I understand about Tom Paul also designing French Creek.   His fingerprints (and butt trail) are all over it and it was evident to me the very first and only time I played it some years ago.

I saw conclusive evidence of the tell-tale signs of that combination of maintenance meld and minimalism, and one or two holes could have been lifted right off of the Gulph Mills Master Plan!   :o

One seriously has to wonder at this point where in the heck Gil Hanse would be without Tom Paul advising him!  ;) ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 11:54:40 AM »
Don't give me this TEP designed Rustic Canyon nonsense. Everyone knows he ripped of the ideas behind CB MacDonald's routing of Riviera to layout RC. CB should get most of the credit, even post humous, for the RC routing and layout.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 12:52:42 PM »
.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:41:57 PM by Dan Herrmann »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 01:14:25 PM »
Think about it.   ;) ;D

Tom Paul, a nationally known, well-experienced amateur playing against the likes of Jay Sigel with years of competitive experience, who had visited and seen all of the best courses along the east coast for decades, who had studied architecture and master-planned changes to Gulph Mills, and who had worked previously on routing a golf course at Ardrossan Farm with the likes of Bill Coore, and even the young Gil Hanse, goes out to California where a young Geoff Shackelford, with absolutely no course building or routing experience of his own, is trying to build a golf course on a narrow plot of land.

Tom flies west to visit, and our story begins...   ;D

A detailed, conclusive, historically speculative, and needlessly inflammatory essay to follow...



Mike,
What's the purpose of posting this nonsense?  Can't you get your Merion bickering fix in the Findlay thread? 

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 01:56:37 PM »
.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 05:01:01 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 02:19:45 PM »
[
Mike,
What's the purpose of posting this nonsense?  Can't you get your Merion bickering fix in the Findlay thread? 

John,

Do you only object to OT threads when you don't agree with the message?   I don't recall you ever objecting prior, or perhaps I missed it.   :-\

Besides, it's not OT in the least.   It drives home a very, very important fundamental point about authorship and responsibility and accreditation, albeit with some attempted humor to sweeten the medicine. 


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 02:38:26 PM »
John,
It's suppose to be funny and ironic, and I think Mike hits home runs in both categories.

I'm happy to see that Mike and Tom have finally seen the error of their ways and have chosen to poke some fun at themselves.   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 03:25:38 PM »
[
Mike,
What's the purpose of posting this nonsense?  Can't you get your Merion bickering fix in the Findlay thread? 

John,

Do you only object to OT threads when you don't agree with the message?   I don't recall you ever objecting prior, or perhaps I missed it.   :-\

Besides, it's not OT in the least.   It drives home a very, very important fundamental point about authorship and responsibility and accreditation, albeit with some attempted humor to sweeten the medicine. 



I'm making no attempt at all to be the off-topic police.  It's not my place and not what I intended with my comment.  I just don't see any purpose in posting something provocative like this in a new thread.  Are you trying to widen the audience for the Merion squabbling or just to demonstrate your humor?

I don't really care what the personal issues are between the sides in the Merion debate and have no interest in being involved with them.  I just don't see how the site benefits from linking your disagreement to the name of Rustic Canyon as well?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2009, 05:03:36 PM »
John Mayhugh,

I think Rustic Canyon is a fantastic example of a collaboration involving too much synchronicity with the Merion project to not use it, frankly.   The fact that it's the home course of David Moriarty only makes the point a bit clearer.

The larger point though, is he who is responsible for the project deserves the credit.

Let's hope they also have the good sense to seek advice, as Geoff and Gil did at Rustic Canyon, as CB Macdonald did at NGLA, and as Hugh Wilson did at Merion.

That's all...plus, if you know Tom, you have to admit that some of this was funny.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2009, 05:09:48 PM »
(Scene: At Jerry’s apartment)

George: You broke up with her? Why?

Jerry: So we could do the voice. (doing the voice) La-la-la. What’s the matter?

George: I think I’m getting tired of it. I mean is that all it does? Hello? La-la-la?

Jerry: No, it can do anything. It can be Spanish. (doing the voice) Hola. Hello-o-o-o.

George: I think I like the girl better than the voice.

Jerry: Really?

(Elaine walks in – how does she keep getting up without that buzzer?!)

Jerry: (doing the voice) Hello-o-o-o.

Elaine: Still?

George: I told you.

LATER ON:

Jerry: (doing the voice) Good-bye Kramer.

Kramer: Jerry, buddy, I got to tell you something. That voice is played.

Jerry: Really?

Kramer: So played.

George: I told you.

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Tom Paul design Rustic Canyon? (Part I COMING SOON)
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 05:19:29 PM »
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

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