[Michael Dugger]

Shinnecock Hills during the 2004 for U.S. Open could have also hosted the British Open.
Or so did it look on TV...

I've been waiting for this one. What do others say about this. It did look like an Open venue.

Anthony

Absolutely.........but more like a "championship" links a la Muirfield as opposed to a "sporty" links.

[Sean_A]

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

Sean,

Sorry, beg to differ. I think playability has a lot to do with it. Links courses evolved based on the ground game and while recent technological advances have negated that to an extent they haven't removed it all together. You may argue that a hole of a certain length will produce a wedge approach to the green and therefore a closed off approach is OK, however when the winds blowing (which it will be to some extent 95% of the time on a links, certainly in the UK) the approach shot may turn out to be a long iron or wood which would call for a running approach. Likewise when you've got a howling wind behind you, you may have to allow some run even with a wedge.

I'm not sure if Mark B was making this point when he said a links should "remain playable across an extraordinary variety of weather and climatic conditions" or whether he was referring solely to the turf, but I think you could easily include playability of the hole in this as well.

Have you ever played Dundonald ? If you play that you will maybe see what I mean, IMHO not really a links despite the turf.

Niall

Niall

So if a green on a links has several bunkers guarding the front which necessitate an aerial approach it isn't a links hole?

   

I agree that traditionally links are open ended as it were, but that is a design characteristic of choice.  A most sensible choice imo for the vast majority of links and non-links holes.  However, whether or not a green is closed off has no bearing on the type of land the hole rests on nor the grasses employed. 

Ciao

Sean,

I am conscious of Tom D's comment on trying to define a links with definitive statements which is of course correct, there will always be exceptions to the rule. That said, I do believe that design comes into it as well as type of turf which was the point I was trying to make.

Niall

ps have you played Dundonald ?

Niall

I disagree with Tom D.  The definition of a links is very clear in mind and not at all wishy washy.  What is harder to do is decide which courses fit that definition, but even then I don't think this is too difficult to determine once one has seen the place.  

No, I haven't seen Dundonald.  My last few trips in that direction have been for Turnberry and Southerness, but I think the pix of Dundonald make the course look very good.  

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

Sean,

Sorry, beg to differ. I think playability has a lot to do with it. Links courses evolved based on the ground game and while recent technological advances have negated that to an extent they haven't removed it all together. You may argue that a hole of a certain length will produce a wedge approach to the green and therefore a closed off approach is OK, however when the winds blowing (which it will be to some extent 95% of the time on a links, certainly in the UK) the approach shot may turn out to be a long iron or wood which would call for a running approach. Likewise when you've got a howling wind behind you, you may have to allow some run even with a wedge.

I'm not sure if Mark B was making this point when he said a links should "remain playable across an extraordinary variety of weather and climatic conditions" or whether he was referring solely to the turf, but I think you could easily include playability of the hole in this as well.

Have you ever played Dundonald ? If you play that you will maybe see what I mean, IMHO not really a links despite the turf.

Niall

Niall

Thanks for picking up on my definition.  Yes, that's exactly what I meant -- turf can come into play, as can the architecture, as can the maintenance.  This ties back to Rich G's comment that a links will still look like a links if man was neutron-bombed out of the picture.

Viz the definition, the ground game is not a value in and of itself but in relationship to the overall.  The wind could blow like crazy but you should be able to play a links because you can lower the trajectory of your shots or run the ball along the ground for great distances.

But it's really about the whole enchilada, not about design elements, maintenance, whatever -- but about the interaction of all those things that make a course.  This is why Malcolm Campbell's insight, that a links can revert to a not-a-links with poor maintenance practices, is so valuable -- and worth extending across all the elements that go into making a links.

So, Sean, bunker-fronted holes on links courses fit my definition just fine, and if they don't, it's because they simply are design mistakes that have nothing to do with the condition of being a links or not.

Mark

PS Thanks for not writing in caps anymore.  I think you were jinxing the CAPS.

[Sean_A]

PS Thanks for not writing in caps anymore.  I think you were jinxing the CAPS.

Mark

You are welcome, but I still don't have any faith in the Caps.  To struggle so mightily with the Rangers was a real eye opener.

Ciao

[TX Golf]

Defining a links course solely by the characteristic of the ground underneath and its location in regards to the sea is a fairly difficult assumption to make...

What about the many courses found in Dubai or Abu Dhabi.... wind swept dunes of sand right on the water!!! Yet I don't think any of us would consider any of those courses to be true LINKS courses.

Maybe that is what the true definition is, but the modern term LINKS has evolved into more than just location and subsurface soil.

The style, maintenance meld, and design all play a huge role.

Robert

[Niall C]

Sean,

Just changed computers, the previous one didn't show the picture. Presumably the hole in question is a par 4 or 5 ? Either way I think my previous response is still valid. The reason I cited Dundonald is that is a course which best begs the question, is it a links or isn't it a links ?

Without a doubt it has fast and firm conditions with a sandy base and fine fescue/bent grass. It also has on a number of the par 4's and par 5's where the green is either raised, or has a burn running hard in front of the green or in the case of the 9th which is an Eden type green, it has the bunker running right along the front of it and if that was not enough also has a burn hard in front of that. Bearing in mind depending on your drive, the green will possibly/probably be long iron or wood away, that to me isn't really links golf. Thats not to say Dundonald is a bad golf course, I wouldn't say that as theres a number of good if not very good holes, but theres just too many of the ones I've described above to make it a "proper" links in my opinion.

MARK

WHATS WRONG WITH CAPITALS ?

Not sure if my definition above quite accords with what you say but I think we both agree the design does come into the equation.

Niall  

[Jon Wiggett]

The lady who was the head of the Ladies' Golf Union [UK] said in her speech at the Curtis Cup that Pacific Dunes was "the finest links golf course" she had ever seen.  I think that's probably the best compliment I ever got.

Tom,

did you know that all winners in their speech (and most of those in 2nd place) always say how good a condition the course is in? Just ask any super

Jon W:  The GB & I team LOST the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, so the compliment was more believable.  Of course, those ladies do have perfect manners.

Tom, no offence was meant and I am sure your obvious pride in PD is more than justified. I was just making the light hearted comment that the 'this is the best ever.....' part of a speech is up there with the GCA comment of 'this land was meant.....'

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

  

Sean,

don't you think this hole would be better with the front left bunker being removed to encourage the running fade in to the green. If executed correctly it would be fine if not then the bunker on the left of the green beckens.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Just changed computers, the previous one didn't show the picture. Presumably the hole in question is a par 4 or 5 ? Either way I think my previous response is still valid. The reason I cited Dundonald is that is a course which best begs the question, is it a links or isn't it a links ?

Without a doubt it has fast and firm conditions with a sandy base and fine fescue/bent grass. It also has on a number of the par 4's and par 5's where the green is either raised, or has a burn running hard in front of the green or in the case of the 9th which is an Eden type green, it has the bunker running right along the front of it and if that was not enough also has a burn hard in front of that. Bearing in mind depending on your drive, the green will possibly/probably be long iron or wood away, that to me isn't really links golf. Thats not to say Dundonald is a bad golf course, I wouldn't say that as theres a number of good if not very good holes, but theres just too many of the ones I've described above to make it a "proper" links in my opinion.

MARK

WHATS WRONG WITH CAPITALS ?

Not sure if my definition above quite accords with what you say but I think we both agree the design does come into the equation.

Niall  

Niall

There are plenty of examples of trouble fronting greens on links.  To the point where if the wind acts up its a real problem holding the green.   Its a very old and accepted design technique for links that is often used on par 3s (as is the example I posted).  Sometimes, a clever design will have a dune to either side which one can bank a shot off to kill the approach, but that sort of shot is pot luck especially if the dune hasn't been mown to at least some degree.  

Here is another example. #7 at Sligo is a magnificent example of trouble up front (and down the right).  If the wind is helping its a fiendishly difficult approach.  One can go over and left and hope not to make the hay, but then you have to chip back towards the water.  Sure, the hole is penal, but its only a ball and it can be retrieved.  Is this not a links hole?
 

I spose we will have to agree to disagree.  


Jon

I think the hole may be improved if there were no fronting bunkers.  Its the least interesting hole at St Enodoc and its one of the few where the shot is prescribed.  A few weeks back I laid up and chipped on for an up and down 3.  Some may think this is clever, but I thought it a bit mundane.  But the fact that the design doesn't work well for a decent wind doesn't mean its not a links hole.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Indeed Sean it doesn't. I think there are good and bad holes on links courses and am not from the school of links is always good. I do however think that giving options is something a good hole should offer. By options I mean being able to get the same result by playing a different type of shot.

It is better to have two options of which both are equally difficult than just one but that is easy. By the way good up and down. The hole played downwind and from the right when I flighted my 8 iron to 2 feet the week before you played.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

Last year's team brought it back from 3-1 to a game 7 against Philly, only to lose.  This one broke through, that's what counts -- teams that win close contests aren't a little better than those that lose close contests, they are a lot better IMHO. (There's your caps Niall.)

Regarding bunker-fronted holes, "playable" does not equate to "fair," it just means you can play without violating the ROG.  Well, maybe a little more than that...

Mark

[Niall C]

Sean,

Just changed computers, the previous one didn't show the picture. Presumably the hole in question is a par 4 or 5 ? Either way I think my previous response is still valid. The reason I cited Dundonald is that is a course which best begs the question, is it a links or isn't it a links ?

Without a doubt it has fast and firm conditions with a sandy base and fine fescue/bent grass. It also has on a number of the par 4's and par 5's where the green is either raised, or has a burn running hard in front of the green or in the case of the 9th which is an Eden type green, it has the bunker running right along the front of it and if that was not enough also has a burn hard in front of that. Bearing in mind depending on your drive, the green will possibly/probably be long iron or wood away, that to me isn't really links golf. Thats not to say Dundonald is a bad golf course, I wouldn't say that as theres a number of good if not very good holes, but theres just too many of the ones I've described above to make it a "proper" links in my opinion.

MARK

WHATS WRONG WITH CAPITALS ?

Not sure if my definition above quite accords with what you say but I think we both agree the design does come into the equation.

Niall  

Niall

There are plenty of examples of trouble fronting greens on links.  To the point where if the wind acts up its a real problem holding the green.   Its a very old and accepted design technique for links that is often used on par 3s (as is the example I posted).  Sometimes, a clever design will have a dune to either side which one can bank a shot off to kill the approach, but that sort of shot is pot luck especially if the dune hasn't been mown to at least some degree.  

Here is another example. #7 at Sligo is a magnificent example of trouble up front (and down the right).  If the wind is helping its a fiendishly difficult approach.  One can go over and left and hope not to make the hay, but then you have to chip back towards the water.  Sure, the hole is penal, but its only a ball and it can be retrieved.  Is this not a links hole?
 

I spose we will have to agree to disagree.  


Jon

I think the hole may be improved if there were no fronting bunkers.  Its the least interesting hole at St Enodoc and its one of the few where the shot is prescribed.  A few weeks back I laid up and chipped on for an up and down 3.  Some may think this is clever, but I thought it a bit mundane.  But the fact that the design doesn't work well for a decent wind doesn't mean its not a links hole.

Ciao

Sean,

You've managed to pick probably my favourite hole on one of the best links I've played, and one on which I am proud to say I made the green in two. You are correct that the hole doesn't fit with my earlier definition but that was meant to be a general statement on my thoughts on what the important playing characteristics (specifically for par 4's/5's and I suppose you could include long par 3's in that as well) for a links course, hence my description of Dundonald and why I thought it wasn't a links.

If you look at Sligo overall, there aren't any other holes like it. Would I say Sligo is a links, of course I would, is this hole a links hole ? Well I suppose by being on a links it is. Now I can imagine you're now thinking, what if this particular hole was also situated on clay based soil, would it still be a links hole ? Thats where I begin to struggle at being definitive and need to fall back on my definition being a general statement. Basically, theres always exceptions to a rule.

Niall

ps. on the green in two followed by a 3 putt, very annoying.

 

[Jason Topp]

Shinnecock Hills during the 2004 for U.S. Open could have also hosted the British Open.
Or so did it look on TV...

I was in Ireland watching the first or second round of that US Open and remember thinking how soft the course looked. 

Clearly they turned off the sprinklers for later rounds.

[Emil Weber]

Does the US have a true links course?
I don't know, but Iceland has some

[John Chilver-Stainer]

How many of you have read that excellent book on the history of golf by David Hamilton - „Golf, Scotland’s Game”

Hamilton expounds on the Scottish word “Linkes”.

So just to add to the confusion

Linkes was originally the name for common ground where the local citizens could graze their animals and hunt rabbits etc.

The original word Links has nothing to do with “connecting” between the sea and the inland areas, nothing to do with the soil characteristics nothing to do with the grass types.

Links is “municipal” land which by chance was the sandy waste land next to the sea where gowf began as a pastime.

So  a “TRUE” Links Golf Course would certainly have to satisfy this definition.

That should reduce the list significantly.

[Mike Tanner]

While the definition of a links remains elusive even on this thread, I'd like to call attention to several courses on North Carolina's Outer Banks.

Nags Head Golf Links, Seascape and the Carolina Club all include enough holes on fast-draining sand bases to be  included in this discussion (stray from the fairways and the sand is on the surface). The barrier island on which they sit was formed from the sea, which is visible from all three of them.

[Jason Hines]

I also find that "a course be near sea level" a very arbitrary defintion.  Where does one draw the cutoff?  10 feet above the ocean?  25?  50? 100?

My guess, somewhere between 3215 to 3750 feet. 

Does the US have a true links course?  Does it really matter?

[Mike Tanner]

Du-oh!

In my above post, I meant to include The Currituck Club, not the Carolina Club.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mike Tanner,

You might find it interesting that the Currituck Club utilizes waste (not sewer) water from its residents to irrigate its course. It does not strive for a fast and firm playing surface, so I don't know that links is applicable. I found Nags Head to be not even close to a links, as it required too many forced carries over wetlands. Duck Woods (the third of three OBX courses I played this week) was the fastest and the firmest, but also demanded many forced carries.

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