[Mark Bourgeois]

This is why I say we need Malcolm Campbell to get this right.

My question is, what is the purpose of defining a links? And now for the answer....

I believe any definition should explain not what a links is but what it does.

And what a links does is:
Remain playable across an extraordinary variety of weather and climatic conditions with little or no maintenance trickeration (one way or the other).

It's when the stewards of links get away from this ideal that they meadow-grass their course into a not-a-links.

Mark

PS Thus I am willing to let Chambers Bay call itself a links if it gives management proper cover against the idiots American golfers who complain about the conditioning.

[David_Tepper]

The back nine at Pacific Grove muni is the links-iest golf course I have seen (in person) in the U.S.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark B:  Malcolm Campbell and George Peper are working on a "links association" to get all the interested parties together ... but their definitions are leaning toward including places like Whistling Straits (!) which would love to financially support the organization in return for a place in it.

Leo & Anthony:  I will stand behind what I wrote earlier, I don't think there were many "true links" in America before 1990, and I wouldn't include many courses built since 1990, either.  I would include 2-3 courses in Bandon, because I think the requirement that the course be near sea level is wrong as long as the land is formed by wind-blown sand from the shore (which Bandon certainly is).  But, to be honest, the over-attention to defining "links" is a waste of time.  The courses are what they are, and different people will have different opinions of them ... the only thing we want to avoid is having someone who's never seen a real links be hoodwinked by a marketing campaign, and wonder what all the fuss is about?

[Ben Sims]

I agree with Mr. Doak.

Would The Old Course cease to be links if it somehow had Poa or Bermuda?

Does the 13 at PD not have windswept dunes and fine cold weather grass?

And can any of you argue that the term "links" has become quite possibly the most misunderstood word in all of golf?  Well, other than the word "par" 

If we are going to argue over the pure definition of a word and not how it is used in common golf vernacular, then we should all henceforth buy only hickory shafted clubs and play with gutta percha.

[Kalen Braley]

David Tepper,

Nice call on many of the holes found on the back 9 at Pacific Grove.

I guess for me, its more about how does the course play.  If it plays like a links course then thats all we really care about right?  Pebble is right next to the ocean, set on top of the cliffs.  Does it play like a links?  Not that I know of or ever hear anyone claim such.  Pacific Dunes is the same, set on cliffs right next to the ocean.  Does it play like a links?  Sure seems so to me.

And if we're talking about places where the ocean used to exist, then Ballyneal can't be left off either.  I know several have said if it were next to an existing body of water, it'd be far higher in the rankings.

[Anthony Gray]

  If you are playing "links golf" then you are most likely on a links course.

    Anthony

[Kalen Braley]

I also find that "a course be near sea level" a very arbitrary defintion.  Where does one draw the cutoff?  10 feet above the ocean?  25?  50? 100?

[Jon Wiggett]

The lady who was the head of the Ladies' Golf Union [UK] said in her speech at the Curtis Cup that Pacific Dunes was "the finest links golf course" she had ever seen.  I think that's probably the best compliment I ever got.

Tom,

did you know that all winners in their speech (and most of those in 2nd place) always say how good a condition the course is in? Just ask any super

[PCCraig]

Mark B:  Malcolm Campbell and George Peper are working on a "links association" to get all the interested parties together ... but their definitions are leaning toward including places like Whistling Straits (!) which would love to financially support the organization in return for a place in it.

Leo & Anthony:  I will stand behind what I wrote earlier, I don't think there were many "true links" in America before 1990, and I wouldn't include many courses built since 1990, either.  I would include 2-3 courses in Bandon, because I think the requirement that the course be near sea level is wrong as long as the land is formed by wind-blown sand from the shore (which Bandon certainly is).  But, to be honest, the over-attention to defining "links" is a waste of time.  The courses are what they are, and different people will have different opinions of them ... the only thing we want to avoid is having someone who's never seen a real links be hoodwinked by a marketing campaign, and wonder what all the fuss is about?

I just had a caddy at Lost Dunes describe the course as "true links golf." I took the statement with a grain of salt but it's funny what the average golfer calls "links" golf. I think most call any course without tree lined fairways "links."

[James Boon]

As for Sand Hills, no way, no how is it a links.  The link to the sea is far too tenuous!

The LINK to the sea... nice one Sean!        and any other smiley you can think of or maybe thats just my dreadful sense of humour?

Cheers,

James

[Bob_Huntley]

South Africa must have the most links of any place in the world.

Every dorp in the country has a sign showing the word Links. However, for those not speaking Afrikaans the full reading is 'Hou Links" meaning, 'Keep Left.'

Bob

[Andrew Summerell]

But, to be honest, the over-attention to defining "links" is a waste of time.  The courses are what they are, and different people will have different opinions of them ... the only thing we want to avoid is having someone who's never seen a real links be hoodwinked by a marketing campaign, and wonder what all the fuss is about?

Tom,

You do realise that statement doesn’t make sense. If you don’t want people to be ‘hoodwinked by a marketing campaign’ then you would need to have a reasonably clear definition.

And if ‘over-attention’ to an architectural matter were a crime, then 90% of the threads on this site would be guilty. 

For mine, having a reasonable definition is important even if only for the growth of peoples’ personal views, but arguing over various courses in not. As I’ve tried to show in the other thread, there are too many variables to have a black & white conclusion.


For what it's worth, I would consider Pacific Dunes a links. It’s very reminiscent of many of the UK links I’ve played.

[Andrew Summerell]

4. Bermuda has grain and I for one dislike it - tee hee.

    

I'm not talking about having Bermuda on the greens, only on the fairways. Quite a lot of Australian courses have Couch fairways that are extremely firm & fast, coupled with Bent greens.

I've never had a lot of trouble with grain on the fairways. 

[Michael Dugger]

My attempt at defining a true links course....

1. A golf course layed out over linksland.  "Linksland" being roughly described as an undulating wasteland of sand and vegetation located between the sea and mainland.  Often times referred to as dunesland.

and/or

2. A golf course designed to replicate the aesthetics and playing conditions found on golf courses built on linksland .  I.E. undulating terrain, well-draining (thus) firm turf, vegetation and natural looking windblown hazards.

 

[Cristian]

The funny thing is, I think that people who have played a few dozen links courses in the UK or Ireland, would recognize a links immediately when they see one. Yet it is difficult to put in a definition.

I have not played many courses in the US, but I can say just from pictures that places like Garden City, Maidstone, NGLA are certainly not links courses. It is not just about firm and fast.
People in the know seem to feel only Bandon has real Links courses.

Since the most important factor to the golfer is how the course is played, it is probably best to judge on playing characteristics. What should one be able to do on a links course exclusively?
Putting from far off the green? Play year round, or a more complex combination of factors?

[Steve Salmen]

Almost 20 years ago I played Spanish Bay.  Though there are some holes that go inland a little, many holes are by the ocean.  I remember the course playing very hard and fast.   Assuming links courses exist in the US, I would certainly qualify Spanish Bay.

I google mapped it out and found that MPCC is it's neighbor and also on the ocean.  I have not played it but assume it has similar features.  Is there someone who has played them both that can comment?  Thanks.

[Walter Bart]

 Re. Sankaty, to me  the front 9 is much more linksy than the back. Can I vote for half of it?  Highland,  while also being way above the ocean, qualifies in my view.  It really is a very modest course.

       I loved Kiawah, but it is not a links course - more  a marshland feel.

       

[Niall C]

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

Sean,

Sorry, beg to differ. I think playability has a lot to do with it. Links courses evolved based on the ground game and while recent technological advances have negated that to an extent they haven't removed it all together. You may argue that a hole of a certain length will produce a wedge approach to the green and therefore a closed off approach is OK, however when the winds blowing (which it will be to some extent 95% of the time on a links, certainly in the UK) the approach shot may turn out to be a long iron or wood which would call for a running approach. Likewise when you've got a howling wind behind you, you may have to allow some run even with a wedge.

I'm not sure if Mark B was making this point when he said a links should "remain playable across an extraordinary variety of weather and climatic conditions" or whether he was referring solely to the turf, but I think you could easily include playability of the hole in this as well.

Have you ever played Dundonald ? If you play that you will maybe see what I mean, IMHO not really a links despite the turf.

Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Jon W:  The GB & I team LOST the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, so the compliment was more believable.  Of course, those ladies do have perfect manners.

Andrew:  I hate to fall back on "knowing it when I see it," but I have listened to people try to define a "links course" for thirty years, and I still haven't heard a definition that doesn't require a lot of exceptions to conform to what I feel is right.  Spending a year in the UK gave me a pretty old-school understanding of what links golf is, but there is always going to be a bit of a gray area, and some people seem to credit all gray courses in the UK as links, but not gray courses outside the UK.

When I referred to "being hoodwinked by marketers" I was referring to the many, many American courses (and now some overseas as well) which have been marketed as links even though they hardly qualify as such in ANY capacity -- playability, turf, conditioning, or being near the sea.  Years ago a golf writer asked me if my Black Forest course in Michigan [18 holes through the trees] was a links-style course ... that's all you need to know about how abused the term has become.  I personally think Pacific Dunes plays and feels like a real links, and even so I am reluctant to tout it as such, because the term is so poorly used in America that people might relate it to some faux links they've seen.

I do not think you can rule out a course from being a links entirely because of grass types ... Some of the links in GB & I have a lot of poa annua in them now, and there are outliers like Humewood.  But it's awfully hard to get the links feel and playability with bermuda fairways ... Kiawah may be close to sea level, but it's mostly manufactured and the playing surface does not remind me of links golf much.

[Sean_A]

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

Sean,

Sorry, beg to differ. I think playability has a lot to do with it. Links courses evolved based on the ground game and while recent technological advances have negated that to an extent they haven't removed it all together. You may argue that a hole of a certain length will produce a wedge approach to the green and therefore a closed off approach is OK, however when the winds blowing (which it will be to some extent 95% of the time on a links, certainly in the UK) the approach shot may turn out to be a long iron or wood which would call for a running approach. Likewise when you've got a howling wind behind you, you may have to allow some run even with a wedge.

I'm not sure if Mark B was making this point when he said a links should "remain playable across an extraordinary variety of weather and climatic conditions" or whether he was referring solely to the turf, but I think you could easily include playability of the hole in this as well.

Have you ever played Dundonald ? If you play that you will maybe see what I mean, IMHO not really a links despite the turf.

Niall

Niall

So if a green on a links has several bunkers guarding the front which necessitate an aerial approach it isn't a links hole?

   

I agree that traditionally links are open ended as it were, but that is a design characteristic of choice.  A most sensible choice imo for the vast majority of links and non-links holes.  However, whether or not a green is closed off has no bearing on the type of land the hole rests on nor the grasses employed. 

Ciao

[Jonathan Cummings]

Nope

[Emil Weber]

Shinnecock Hills during the 2004 for U.S. Open could have also hosted the British Open.
Or so did it look on TV...

[Gene Greco]

Jon W:  The GB & I team LOST the Curtis Cup at Pacific Dunes, so the compliment was more believable.  Of course, those ladies do have perfect manners.

Andrew:  I hate to fall back on "knowing it when I see it," but I have listened to people try to define a "links course" for thirty years, and I still haven't heard a definition that doesn't require a lot of exceptions to conform to what I feel is right.  Spending a year in the UK gave me a pretty old-school understanding of what links golf is, but there is always going to be a bit of a gray area, and some people seem to credit all gray courses in the UK as links, but not gray courses outside the UK.

When I referred to "being hoodwinked by marketers" I was referring to the many, many American courses (and now some overseas as well) which have been marketed as links even though they hardly qualify as such in ANY capacity -- playability, turf, conditioning, or being near the sea.  Years ago a golf writer asked me if my Black Forest course in Michigan [18 holes through the trees] was a links-style course ... that's all you need to know about how abused the term has become.  I personally think Pacific Dunes plays and feels like a real links, and even so I am reluctant to tout it as such, because the term is so poorly used in America that people might relate it to some faux links they've seen.

I do not think you can rule out a course from being a links entirely because of grass types ... Some of the links in GB & I have a lot of poa annua in them now, and there are outliers like Humewood.  But it's awfully hard to get the links feel and playability with bermuda fairways ... Kiawah may be close to sea level, but it's mostly manufactured and the playing surface does not remind me of links golf much.

     I agree 100% with the above statements. Furthermore, I'll say it - Pacific Dunes is a links course. It looks, plays and even smells like a links. Therefore,...

Wasn't a statement  made on this board about five or six years ago that an Irishman played PD and said he believes he had just played the best links in the world?


  

[Niall C]

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

Sean,

Sorry, beg to differ. I think playability has a lot to do with it. Links courses evolved based on the ground game and while recent technological advances have negated that to an extent they haven't removed it all together. You may argue that a hole of a certain length will produce a wedge approach to the green and therefore a closed off approach is OK, however when the winds blowing (which it will be to some extent 95% of the time on a links, certainly in the UK) the approach shot may turn out to be a long iron or wood which would call for a running approach. Likewise when you've got a howling wind behind you, you may have to allow some run even with a wedge.

I'm not sure if Mark B was making this point when he said a links should "remain playable across an extraordinary variety of weather and climatic conditions" or whether he was referring solely to the turf, but I think you could easily include playability of the hole in this as well.

Have you ever played Dundonald ? If you play that you will maybe see what I mean, IMHO not really a links despite the turf.

Niall

Niall

So if a green on a links has several bunkers guarding the front which necessitate an aerial approach it isn't a links hole?

   

I agree that traditionally links are open ended as it were, but that is a design characteristic of choice.  A most sensible choice imo for the vast majority of links and non-links holes.  However, whether or not a green is closed off has no bearing on the type of land the hole rests on nor the grasses employed. 

Ciao

Sean,

I am conscious of Tom D's comment on trying to define a links with definitive statements which is of course correct, there will always be exceptions to the rule. That said, I do believe that design comes into it as well as type of turf which was the point I was trying to make.

Niall

ps have you played Dundonald ?

[Anthony Gray]

Shinnecock Hills during the 2004 for U.S. Open could have also hosted the British Open.
Or so did it look on TV...

  I've been waiting for this one. What do others say about this. It did look like an Open venue.

  Anthony

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