[Anthony Fowler]

Tom D, I remember you writing (maybe here) that the only links golf in the US before 1990 was a few holes at Maidstone and Highland Links in Truro, MA (Which Cliff already mentioned).  What criteria were you using then?

I actually got to play Highland links just one week ago and it was a lot of fun.  I must admit that I was a bit disappointed to find green, soggy fairways.

[Garland Bayley]

Astoria and Gearhart are ruined links. They planted too many trees on the courses. A severe store took away many of the trees at Astoria (don't know about Gearhart), and it is much improved. However, I was still stymied by a tree last time there in a location that had no trees when it was built.

[Bill Brightly]

Although I have never played it, wouldn't Raynor's Fishers Island be considered a links course? If not, why not?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Newport CC?

[Mike Wagner]

Chambers/Pac/Bandon - if these aren't links courses, then we're splitting WAY too many hairs....

[Bob_Huntley]

Although I have never played it, wouldn't Raynor's Fishers Island be considered a links course? If not, why not?

Bill,

Fishers Island is in my top ten and is as close to a links as one can imagine.

Go to Courses By Country for some great photographs of this gem.


Bob

[Chip Gaskins]

Maidstone (about 5-6 holes)

[TEPaul]

Chip Gaskin:

I'm with you 100%. That's the closest thing to real linksland I've ever seen in the USA. And of those 5-6, #9 and #14 still blow me away, they are a couple of the finest of their par category I have ever seen and at this point I've sure been around and seen a lot of good ones from the old days of GCA.

[Mike Erdmann]

Chambers/Pac/Bandon - if these aren't links courses, then we're splitting WAY too many hairs....

Chambers Bay isn't even remotely close to being a true links course.  Rather than being linksland, it was a former gravel pit shaped by man & machine into what exists today. 

One could make the argument that Bandon & Pacific aren't true links courses, but as Tom D states, that would be taking such a strict definition of links that it would disqualify Portrush, Muirfield and others.

[Steve Salmen]

I have always thought that linksland was the unfarmable land between the sea and arable land.  Basically compacted, sand based ground.   I am not in a position to debate how far above sea level is legal, but I personally believe the bump and run is an integral part of links golf.

[Mike Wagner]

Mike,

If Chambers is even REMOTELY close to a links course AND the argument could be made that Bandon/Pacific aren't either, then let's hear the OFFICIAL definition....

The truth is.....there isn't one.  While there are certain commonalities among "links" courses, there is no ONE definition.

Chambers may be man made, but does it really matter?  It sure meets all the criteria of what most think of as a "links" course.....if part of that definition is that the land be undisturbed, well, then, you got me....

[Sean_A]

The strictest definitions of "links" seem to be written by people who want to exclude everybody but themselves, while the more liberal definitions are all offered by people who want to be included.

I am not sure the "sea level" definition which some use is really appropriate.  By that measure you would have to exclude Ballybunion, Portrush, Gullane, and Muirfield, among others ... and nearly everyone would consider those to be links, wouldn't they?

Tom is correct.  How high above the sea the course is doesn't matter if there is a sandy base which supports bents and fescues - this fact connects the course to the sea. 

I don't think the proper definition of a links is a matter of opinion.  A course/hole either is or isn't a links.  Usually, the issue which really separates the boys from the men is the grass.  It doesn't matter a tat what we choose to call these grasses, what is important is that they offer quick playing conditions while the sandy base gives us the firm conditions. 

Ciao   

[Mike Erdmann]

The issue of what makes a true links course has been argued ad nauseum on this site for the last 7 or 8 years.  I'd agree there is no 'one' definition of a links course, but I just don't believe that a former gravel quarry that has been bulldozed into faux-dunes qualifies as a links course, even if it does sit beside the water.  The underlying 'soil' being gravel is the primary issue, IMO.  Regardless of the various definitions of what makes for a links course, I think most if not all would agree that sandy soil is a necessity.  That's not a knock on Chambers Bay, as I think the course is excellent regardless of definition and plays very much like a links.

[Mike Sweeney]

I think it is determined by where the glaciers melted and receded to the north, resulting in the difference between the North Shore beaches and the South Shore beaches of Long Island, Cape Cod, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard. The North Shore beaches are rocky from the remaining glacial debris, while the South Shore's are crisp, clear, outwash sand.

Links:

Maidstone
Jones Beach Pitch and Putt
Garden City
Sankaty Head
Nantucket GC

Maybe Links:

Shinnecock
Timber Point
National
Edgartown GC
Hyannisport

Not links:

Newport
Friars Head
Fishers Island
Misquamicut

It is determined by where the glaciers ended:

Long Island, as part of the Outer Lands region, is formed largely of two spines of glacial moraine, with a large, sandy outwash plain beyond. These moraines consist of gravel and loose rock left behind during the two most recent pulses of Wisconsin glaciation some 21,000 years ago (19,000 BC). The northern moraine, which directly abuts the North Shore of Long Island at points, is known as the Harbor Hill moraine. The more southerly moraine, known as the Ronkonkoma moraine, forms the "backbone" of Long Island; it runs primarily through the very center of Long Island, roughly coinciding with the length of the Long Island Expressway.

The land to the south of this moraine to the South Shore is the outwash plain of the last glacier. Known as the Hempstead Plains, this land contained one of the few natural prairies to exist east of the Appalachian Mountains.

[Sean_A]

I think it is determined by where the glaciers melted and receded to the north, resulting in the difference between the North Shore beaches and the South Shore beaches of Long Island, Cape Cod, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard. The North Shore beaches are rocky from the remaining glacial debris, while the South Shore's are crisp, clear, outwash sand.

Links:

Maidstone
Jones Beach Pitch and Putt
Garden City
Sankaty Head
Nantucket GC

Maybe Links:

Shinnecock
Timber Point
National
Edgartown GC
Hyannisport

Not links:

Newport
Friars Head
Fishers Island
Misquamicut

It is determined by where the glaciers ended:

Long Island, as part of the Outer Lands region, is formed largely of two spines of glacial moraine, with a large, sandy outwash plain beyond. These moraines consist of gravel and loose rock left behind during the two most recent pulses of Wisconsin glaciation some 21,000 years ago (19,000 BC). The northern moraine, which directly abuts the North Shore of Long Island at points, is known as the Harbor Hill moraine. The more southerly moraine, known as the Ronkonkoma moraine, forms the "backbone" of Long Island; it runs primarily through the very center of Long Island, roughly coinciding with the length of the Long Island Expressway.

The land to the south of this moraine to the South Shore is the outwash plain of the last glacier. Known as the Hempstead Plains, this land contained one of the few natural prairies to exist east of the Appalachian Mountains.

Mike

I haven't seen the others, but I disagree that Sankaty Head is a links.  The grass is far too meadowy.  I would also be very surprised if Nantucket GC is a links. 

Fine turf is dominated by two fine-leaved, slow-growing, deep-rooted grasses, namely Fine Fescues (Festuca rubra) and the Bents (Agrostis). Courses are improved with these grasses which naturally exist in temperate Northern European latitudes but hardly anywhere else in the world.  The principles of good greenkeeping are based on the needs of these grasses and the conditions where they flourish which are at the same time unsuitable or unappreciated by coarser-leaved, faster-growing, shallower-rooted, more agricultural grasses (poa annua).  These grasses flourish at or near sea level and on moorland tops.  They enjoy alkaline (because of sea-shell content) dry arid links, downland and limestone heath and acid moorland.



Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Sean,

Are Kingsbarns and Sand Hills "links" as they would appear to have those grasses?

[Niall C]

Mike

I haven't seen the others, but I disagree that Sankaty Head is a links.  The grass is far too meadowy.  I would also be very surprised if Nantucket GC is a links. 

Fine turf is dominated by two fine-leaved, slow-growing, deep-rooted grasses, namely Fine Fescues (Festuca rubra) and the Bents (Agrostis). Courses are improved with these grasses which naturally exist in temperate Northern European latitudes but hardly anywhere else in the world.  The principles of good greenkeeping are based on the needs of these grasses and the conditions where they flourish which are at the same time unsuitable or unappreciated by coarser-leaved, faster-growing, shallower-rooted, more agricultural grasses (poa annua).  These grasses flourish at or near sea level and on moorland tops.  They enjoy alkaline (because of sea-shell content) dry arid links, downland and limestone heath and acid moorland.



Ciao
[/quote]

Sean,

Thats as good a definition as I've seen. However the other factor is the design. I would contend that for a course to be considered to be a links it should have certain playing characteristics, fast and firm obviously, another might be to have open fronted greens to the par 4's and par 5's to enable the player to run their ball onto the green. I'm sure others might have their own playing characteristics but these are the key ones for me as they allow the ground game.

Mike,

Good point about Kingsbarns. At the time it was built, Kingsbarns was probably the most engineered golf course ever built in Scotland. What has been created is a raised beach effect with the holes playing along the water being lower than the other holes which are on the "raised beach" further away from the water.

In actual fact this land was never a raised beach and the only links land ie sandy soil, fescue, bent etc was was on the lower land. To get a level of playing consistency the developer had the soil from the upper land mixed with the soil from the lower land. They have largely been successful in this as my definition of links playing characteristics holds good, but I suspect that the top part of the course still doesn't drain as well which might explain why the close the course over the winter months.

Niall 

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Are Kingsbarns and Sand Hills "links" as they would appear to have those grasses?

Mike

The grasses aren't the only part of the formula. I couldn't say about Kingsbarns because I haven't been there, but I believe that in the right spot a links can be re/created.  Heck, we have clubs up and down the country right now trying to find ways to encourage fine grasses to grow on their links after years of mistreatment with phosphatic fertilisers and over-watering.  Both of which encourage broader leaf grasses which are nowhere near as ideal for golf as fine grasses.  As for Sand Hills, no way, no how is it a links.  The link to the sea is far too tenuous!

Niall

I don't think it matters a bit if greens are closed off by bunkers or whatever.  So from this standpoint, no, I don't think the design matters other than from a traditional idea of links being ground game dominated.  However, we all know that this tradition is long gone for good players unless using the ground is the better option.

Ciao 

[Leo Barber]

Tom Doak named his 14 favorite links in Travel and Leisure Magazine in 2007 and had this to say

For years when golf writers asked me how many true links courses existed in America, I had to bite my lip. By the strictest definition—sandy ground that had formerly been part of the sea—only a handful of holes at Maidstone on the east end of Long Island and the public course at Truro on Cape Cod would have passed muster in the eyes of a visit ing Scotsman. There are perhaps 250 true links in the world today, and I’ve walked around the better half of them in learning the craft of designing and building golf courses. I’ve found that even the simplest of links has been worth a look (or a game), and picking favorites is not an easy task, because once you start it’s hard to stop. But I’ve selected fourteen that together give a sense of the variety that links golf provides

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/golf-true-links

[Andrew Summerell]

Usually, the issue which really separates the boys from the men is the grass.  It doesn't matter a tat what we choose to call these grasses, what is important is that they offer quick playing conditions while the sandy base gives us the firm conditions. 

Sean,

Are you suggesting that conditioning is the more important factor instead of grass types?

[Sean_A]

Usually, the issue which really separates the boys from the men is the grass.  It doesn't matter a tat what we choose to call these grasses, what is important is that they offer quick playing conditions while the sandy base gives us the firm conditions. 

Sean,

Are you suggesting that conditioning is the more important factor instead of grass types?

Andrew

No, not at all.  My only meaning was that folks may call these fine grasses all sorts of different names.  Like the design of a links, I don't think conditioning matters.  Of course it helps to enjoy the best grass types on offer for the game of golf if the grass is kept short, but longer grass doesn't equate to non-links.  though, in my experience, the conditions of a links is really a non-issue because I don't think I have ever seen a links in poor condition relative to other sorts of courses, but then I am not one to fuss over conditions.  Sometimes a course cane be great in December or in July.  Weather is the master of these things and we should all accept this. 

Ciao 

[Andrew Summerell]

Sean,

This is where I have a difficulty with the grass issue. If you over water Fescues or Bents they will become soft & not play firm & fast.
Couch as a fairway grass easily plays firm & fast if not over watered.
If Royal Cinque Ports became somehow infested with Kikuyu, would is cease to be a links?
For me the terrain (geography & geology) is the most important factor in defining a links. The grass & conditioning (to a point) can work itself out.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

This is where I have a difficulty with the grass issue. If you over water Fescues or Bents they will become soft & not play firm & fast.
Couch as a fairway grass easily plays firm & fast if not over watered.
If Royal Cinque Ports became somehow infested with Kikuyu, would is cease to be a links?
For me the terrain (geography & geology) is the most important factor in defining a links. The grass & conditioning (to a point) can work itself out.

Andrew

If you over-water fine grasses they eventually will be taken over by more broad leaf grasses, hence the reason a links could lose its f&f characteristics.  If Deal became infested with Kikuyu to the point where the course longer played f&f I would say it is no longer a links.  We sort of have this problem now with many links.  Because of the use of watering systems and inappropriate fertilizers, broad leaf grasses have become rooted.  The problem with this is that these broad leaf grasses then require the food and watering which brought about their dominance and this stretches what have traditionally been very lean maintenance budgets.  The tradeoff is that it is very difficult to get fine grasses in excellent nick beyond the shoulder seasons, whereas broad leaf grasses can be brought to excellent nick in summer - the modern golf season.  Of course, these braod leaf grasses then don't perform nearly as well in the winter as fine grasses do.  To me, the tradeoff is a poor one because of cost and the inferior winter conditions.  I believe that with rising costs and decreased memberships, memberships across the country will come to find its a poor tradeoff as well and look to make fine grasses absolutely dominant and thus much easier to economically and ecologically sustain.   

The issue with couch is a new one with me.  I am not sure I have ever heard of a couch links.  But from my experience of Bermuda, it ain't the same as fine grasses for a few reasons and some of these could be mistaken. 

1. I think Bermuda is quicker growing so requires more maintenance to cut than slow growing fine grasses. 

2. Bermuda goes dormant in winter and during the last period of the dormancy the conditions are very poor in wet weather - some of the worst conditions I have ever encountered.

3. Bermuda can't be kept as short as fine grasses because its root systems are shallower thus the courses often can't play as quick. 

4. Bermuda has grain and I for one dislike it - tee hee.

All that said, if I lived in a hot - humid climate and Bermuda was the natural grass of the area that is what I would want my course to be grassed with.   

For me the combination of the grasses and geography (which allows for fine grasses to grow) combine to make what we think of as links and one without the other results in an inferior product.  But, I am interested to know more about this Couch business and how mit works on the seaside.

Ciao

     

[Cliff Hamm]

I think it is determined by where the glaciers melted and receded to the north, resulting in the difference between the North Shore beaches and the South Shore beaches of Long Island, Cape Cod, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard. The North Shore beaches are rocky from the remaining glacial debris, while the South Shore's are crisp, clear, outwash sand.

Links:

Maidstone
Jones Beach Pitch and Putt
Garden City
Sankaty Head
Nantucket GC

Maybe Links:

Shinnecock
Timber Point
National
Edgartown GC
Hyannisport

Not links:

Newport
Friars Head
Fishers Island
Misquamicut

It is determined by where the glaciers ended:

Long Island, as part of the Outer Lands region, is formed largely of two spines of glacial moraine, with a large, sandy outwash plain beyond. These moraines consist of gravel and loose rock left behind during the two most recent pulses of Wisconsin glaciation some 21,000 years ago (19,000 BC). The northern moraine, which directly abuts the North Shore of Long Island at points, is known as the Harbor Hill moraine. The more southerly moraine, known as the Ronkonkoma moraine, forms the "backbone" of Long Island; it runs primarily through the very center of Long Island, roughly coinciding with the length of the Long Island Expressway.

The land to the south of this moraine to the South Shore is the outwash plain of the last glacier. Known as the Hempstead Plains, this land contained one of the few natural prairies to exist east of the Appalachian Mountains.

Where would you put Highland Links?

[Scott Warren]

While I realise NSW GC isn't a links course, its combination of couch fairways and sandy soil have always been receptive to the ground game when I have played there, which is 10+ times over 12 years in all seasons. I know a few of you guys have played there more than I have, what say you?

I'm unable to think of a greenside shot I can/do play on the links at Deal that the turf at NSW doesn't allow.

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