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Mark Alexander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Scottish pride
« on: April 27, 2009, 04:10:40 PM »
Who was/is the greatest Scottish golf course architect?
Can there be only one?

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 04:16:09 PM »
OTM

Anthony Gray

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2009, 04:23:11 PM »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 04:28:11 PM »
I was also thinking that if we're looking for the greatest, by definition that can only be one.  If this is so I'm thinking it'll be tough to go with anyone other than OTM.

But if we're talking the greatest architects, then thats a different story.

Anthony Gray

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 04:49:09 PM »


  Who are the other contenders?

  Anthony


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 05:07:55 PM »
Most influential - certainly OTM.  Greatest, James Braid.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 05:24:06 PM »
Well, Donald Ross was a Scot.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 05:37:55 PM »


  Who are the other contenders?

  Anthony



Willie Park Jr.?

Mark Alexander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 07:01:27 PM »
So far, the Old boy seems to be running away with it, but others have been mentioned - Willie Park Jr, Donald Ross, James Braid.
Anyone willing to throw another name into the hat?
And for those who have identified OTM is the pinnacle of Scottish design, why so?

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 08:18:55 PM »
Stanley Thompson was born is Scotland... at least he pretended to...

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 09:33:05 AM »
MacKenzie pretended to be too!

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2009, 10:05:29 AM »
The most underrated Scottish Golf Course Architect is my partner Graeme Webster.  If Graeme was ever given a project with a good budget he would design something incredible. He has never been given that opportunity in Britain.

I have not seen anyone, anywhere (no not even Tom Doak) design parkland greensites as good as Graeme does, period.

Graeme and I have have designed some fantastic green sites in Norway but nearly all of them have been very low budgets (including restricted maintenance budgets) where none of our greens have been over 4500 sq/ft so we have had to really work on designing exciting green surrounds to compensate for the small greens.

Even at Stavanger where we have had a good budget to work to our largest green is 4200 sq/ft, which meant we had to design really good "greensites".

Graeme's earlier designs were probably a bit too "buried elephant" or "3 tier" greens but now (maybe after meeting me...he he) his greens are getting better and better all the time.

It is a huge shame that so many good budget projects have gone to foreign architects that to be honest have not produced the goods when these contracts could have gone to Graeme. IMHO.

The other Scottish architect that should be mentioned is David Kidd, but has he designed anything "great" after Bandon? Is The Castle Course great and was it totally designed by David?
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2009, 10:23:30 AM »

The Castle Course.....Great ???

Brian what have you been drinking, yes it might be great if on the Moon but at St Andrews its Disneyland and bloody expensive as well. A real white Elephant and a scar on the face of golf at St Andrews.

 The Castle Course.....Great ??? ???

Brian what have you been drinking, yes it might be great if on the Moon but at St Andrews its Disneyland and bloody expensive as well. A real white Elephant and a scar on the face of golf at St Andrews.

The Castle Course.....Great ??? ??? ???

Brian what have you been drinking, yes it might be great if on the Moon but at St Andrews its Disneyland and bloody expensive as well. A real white Elephant and a scar on the face of golf at St Andrews.

Its like the Ground Hog Day, its always there :'( :'( :'(

Melvyn


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 12:05:27 PM »
Melvyn,

It is a question... ;)

Is The Castle Course great or is it not? In your eyes no...in my eyes, it is good but is it great...maybe, lets see after the changes have come into play.  :o

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 12:40:23 PM »
I'm with Sean on this one.

My vote is for James Braid as the greatest and OTM as most influential.

Perhaps an honourable mention to Willie Park jnr?

Cheers,

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2009, 12:47:42 PM »
And there are a good many Sandy Herd courses, particularly in the Pennines, dating from his years as Professional at Huddersfield.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2009, 12:54:11 PM »
Greatest in in native land?

         OTM (and most influential)

Greatest in the States?
 
         Donald Ross (and I don't think it's even close unless David Kidd designs at least 5 more courses of      Bandon's quality in the States)

Overall best Scottish Architect?  It's very very tough to decide between those two.  But OTM is hard to root against, as is James Braid.  For decisions sake, I'll go with Donald Ross ;D

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2009, 01:42:23 PM »
Mark

We always have a problem when we try to answer question like this. The main problem is that we do not really stop and equate the time frame/period with each designer. We are forced to promote one over the other even though their lives may have overlap. I for one find it most difficult.

As my research goes deeper in to the 19th Century guys I am more driven to actually give them more credit than the later architects.  I have said it before and am more than happy to repeat my belief that the 19th Century designers actually opened a Golden Age of Golf Design.

I must start with Allan Robertson, whilst a great golfer, his designs were basic (when compared to late designers) but in his day he led the field in design techniques and ability.

Then Old Tom, his student and understudy while he undertook his designs and I understand assisted in them (particularly Carnoustie). Old Tom took design to a new and open level that kicked started the game and design through Scotland then GB&I. His input, ideas and designs lead the way for some 40 years with the majority of those that followed either knowing him, being trained under him or were influence by him, reinforced by being The Custodian of The Green at St Andrews. Through his period, courses started to standardise to the current norm of 9 & 18 holes although other non standard size still survive. In his time, he was the lead architect and certainly remains one of the most influential designers in the golfing world. Some do not rate his designs, but that is because they look back at past  generations with the knowledge they posses today forgetting the constraints imposed on those past generations and the advantage later designers had in equipment and money.

James Braid, yes, great credit to him and thanks to his input, we have many of Old Tom's holes still in play. Again, some have complained at the speed of his modification but he improved the course as and where he saw fit. If the course was inherently good why change it, just adjust it to accommodate the modern ball and equipment. In addition, his new designs reflected his modifications looking to offer that early Scottish influence that so made golf so popular.

Willie Campbell another Old Tom trainee, produced some great courses but dead by 1900.

John Sunderland (of Royal Dornoch) stayed true to Old Tom’s designs and over the years developed Royal Dornoch into what she is today. Plus his efforts at Brora and Skibo plus a few others.

Donald Ross, now as I see it, not much of an achiever but made good in the USA. Royal Dornoch still give him credit, yet I see no reason as Sunderland & Old Tom were the real designers of Dornoch. No the club today promotes Ross to attract the US market and the Dollar due to Ross’s fame in America. Alas, he did not shine at all in Scotland IMHO and I would put him at the bottom of my list.

There are many more names to mention, all with some degree of pride but this is not a list for Scottish designers but of Scottish pride. Others will no doubt mention those I have left out but I have not done so out of disrespect but because the numbers are too many to mention by one individual.

Nevertheless, there is a great deal to be proud about when it comes to golf and design in Scotland.

Melvyn     

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 01:57:59 PM »
Melvyn,

Is there anyone else other than James Braid that has designed so many good inland courses in Scotland?  Can you think of anyone else?  Or are there so many good inland Braid courses because he was around as golf moved inland?
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2009, 01:59:55 PM »
Brian:

I am too lazy to look for it, but I SWEAR you were The Castle Course's biggest champion on this site not six months ago.  Did you go back or something?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2009, 02:05:26 PM »
Tom,

I still am a big champion of it.  Absolutely love it, still think it is world class and think it will be even better when the changes are done. I think it has received a lot of unfair press. I think it belongs in the Top 100 courses of the world.

However, is it great in the eyes of everyone else?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 02:09:57 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2009, 02:21:22 PM »
Mr. Morrow  brings up a good point.  He pointed out that Ross did not shine in Scotland. 

That begs the question. Are we comparing designers born in Scotland and thereby considered Scottish? Or are we comparing designer's whose work was predominantly in Scotland?

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2009, 02:34:05 PM »
A good Scot would take credit for both!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2009, 03:01:17 PM »

Brian

Perhaps I would go further and say

The Castle Course is a Helter-Skelter of a layout of chaotic and disorderly design in a sea of flat farmland. :o

Melvyn

PS I am not a supporter of the Castle Course ;)


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish pride
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2009, 03:12:31 PM »
Melvyn,

Helter Skelter of a design is probably the best description of the course I have heard about The Castle course.

Did you see my question about James Braid?
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

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