[Scott Macpherson]

Sean,

maybe you're right.

Under golf courses there are two main categories; Seaside and Inland.

Under 'Seaside' you have Links (cool-season grasses predominance), Links (warm-season grasses predominance), Clifftop, Downfield and whatever else.

Under 'Inland' you have Heathland, Desert, Parkland, Lakeside, alpine etc

Start the database...we're away!

s

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean,

maybe you're right.

Under golf courses there are two main categories; Seaside and Inland.

Under 'Seaside' you have Links (cool-season grasses predominance), Links (warm-season grasses predominance), Clifftop, Downfield and whatever else.

Under 'Inland' you have Heathland, Desert, Parkland, Lakeside, alpine etc

Start the database...we're away!

s

Scott, while I think of it I think your book on the Old Course is great, is it possible to get a large print or a autocad disc of the contour map of the course?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Scott

Its either a Links Course or not.

Lets not start all this crap.

Melvyn

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think linksland could have trees on or other vegatation, is it not merely land reclaimed from the sea by the natural depositing of sand, ie spit formation or tidal redistribution of rocks and soils. You could have land adjacent to the sea that is not linksland and you could have land a little inland that is still linksland.

[Anthony Gray]

Defining a Links, this cannot really be described in words, as we know they can be very easily misunderstood. The only way to define a Links is by a photos. so here are two, Askernish 7th & Rosapenna 18th photo are my definition of a Links.




A Links course, has that magnet that pulls you to it. Its just shouts 'Play Me'.  Add to this the original Links courses still throw down a challenge to a golfer in that the AM game may well differ from the PM round. 

The Links - the first choice for any serious golfer. 

Melvyn   

  Good point...I guess you know one when you see one.

  Anthony

[Andrew Summerell]

Scott,

Are we searching for GCA's specific definition of the word links?

As much as I agree with what everyone has said regarding grass types (I too hate kikuyu), if we look at the etymology of the word links, all the early references I have found don't refer to grass types. All I can find is a reference to 'sandy turf covered ground usually along the seashore'.

The earlist definition I have found is from 1728,'undulating sandy ground'.

So are we adding a GCA specific to an all ready defined word?

[Scott Macpherson]

Sean,

maybe you're right.

Under golf courses there are two main categories; Seaside and Inland.

Under 'Seaside' you have Links (cool-season grasses predominance), Links (warm-season grasses predominance), Clifftop, Downfield and whatever else.

Under 'Inland' you have Heathland, Desert, Parkland, Lakeside, alpine etc

Start the database...we're away!

s

Scott, while I think of it I think your book on the Old Course is great, is it possible to get a large print or a autocad disc of the contour map of the course?

HI Adrian,

That is a great plan isn't it! Sorry I can't get you that plan. The rights to it are privately owned and I am very grateful to Jerry Pate for letting me use it in the book. It was one of the most exciting moment of the publication when permission was granted to print that plan as it is very rarely seen. (note- one of the aims of the book was to bring together all the best and most significant plans ever drawn of TOC) Glad you liked it.

Andrew,

Great research...and good question. Do you think we should?

I am with Melvyn in spirit. I think I know when I see a links...and it has cool season grasses (because these allow the ball to run, skip, hop, bound, kick etc better than Kikuyu and other warm-season. They also give you those thin hungry lies that make for pure striking of the ball). But do others think that is important too?

scott

[Terry Thornton]

As an Australian I have to say that although we have plenty of coastline, we don't really have a lot of links land. We have some courses that have a few holes on actual links land & we have plenty of seaside & cliff top courses

Andrew,
would you consider that the first 6 holes or so at Barwon Heads GC are as close to the 'links definition' that we have in Australia?

[Leo Barber]

As an Australian I have to say that although we have plenty of coastline, we don't really have a lot of links land. We have some courses that have a few holes on actual links land & we have plenty of seaside & cliff top courses

Andrew,
would you consider that the first 6 holes or so at Barwon Heads GC are as close to the 'links definition' that we have in Australia?

They might be the closest holes to links in Aust but Barnbougle IS links and thats the difference.  The look, feel and sound of the first six at Barwon Heads certainly leads you towards the impression of a links but I guess given the first 30 odd posts of this thread I myself are now questioning whether they are the types of links holes that produce the characteristics respected on the great links.  Again it all comes back to that definition of a links!   

[Andrew Summerell]

As an Australian I have to say that although we have plenty of coastline, we don't really have a lot of links land. We have some courses that have a few holes on actual links land & we have plenty of seaside & cliff top courses

Andrew,
would you consider that the first 6 holes or so at Barwon Heads GC are as close to the 'links definition' that we have in Australia?

Yes I do. Like that photo I posted of Western Gailes on the other forum, certain holes at BH definitely have the terrain & condition covered.

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew,

Great research...and good question. Do you think we should?

The difficulty with the definitions I founds were from Scottish publications, possibly written by people who know no other seaside terrain except Scottish Linksland, or had never considered golf to be played anywhere else. If this is the case, then maybe we do need to more specifically define the word links with regards to golfing terrain.

The issue of grasses is a complex one & may come down to conditioning. There is a reasonable amount of couch on Australian fairways that plays firm & fast & very much like many of the links courses in the UK that I’ve played. Likewise I’ve played Fescue & Bent courses in colder climates (often mountain courses) that play quite soft. Obviously Kikuyu is not worth considering.

My point is, when the discussion goes beyond the mere geography & geology, are we really talking grass or conditioning? Could a ‘true’ links have couch on its fairways if it was kept in the right condition?

[Scott Macpherson]

Andrew,

Great research...and good question. Do you think we should?

The difficulty with the definitions I founds were from Scottish publications, possibly written by people who know no other seaside terrain except Scottish Linksland, or had never considered golf to be played anywhere else. If this is the case, then maybe we do need to more specifically define the word links with regards to golfing terrain.

The issue of grasses is a complex one & may come down to conditioning. There is a reasonable amount of couch on Australian fairways that plays firm & fast & very much like many of the links courses in the UK that I’ve played. Likewise I’ve played Fescue & Bent courses in colder climates (often mountain courses) that play quite soft. Obviously Kikuyu is not worth considering.

My point is, when the discussion goes beyond the mere geography & geology, are we really talking grass or conditioning? Could a ‘true’ links have couch on its fairways if it was kept in the right condition?

The answer to your good question would be easier to answer if there was a links in the British Isles that had couch fairways. Is there? Sadly I don't think it's warm enough... even on the south coast.

scott

[C. Squier]

Melvyn, from any of the pictures you've seen here on GCA.com or elsewhere, do you feel that there may be a links course that fits your definition in the US?

CPS

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

I must watch what I say re USA, but in truth I have no real experience of US golf or its courses to offer any comment. While I have seen many photos, they are just a drop in the Ocean.  However, yes I have seen some very interesting courses that look great and seem to offer fun with a challenge (if we could only get rid of the cart tracks and distance aids).

In addition, the game I believe is not all about long air shots and I enjoy more ground contact than some of you guys. Expect that the links influence creeping in, but I would not change that for the world.

May not have given you an answer that you may have been looking for.

Melvyn

[Andrew Summerell]

The answer to your good question would be easier to answer if there was a links in the British Isles that had couch fairways. Is there? Sadly I don't think it's warm enough... even on the south coast.

Scott,

I’ve played many Links courses in the UK, but none with Couch on the fairway, BUT I believe fairways of Couch (with Bent greens) could be an acceptable way to have a Links courses in warmer climates. This is based on my Australian experience as I have found the Bermuda (Couch) grass courses I have played in America to play quite different to many of the Australian courses.

New South Wales GC (not strictly a Links) plays just like many UK Links with its Couch fairways & Bent greens. In fact, it reminds me a lot of the courses at Crail.

It’s an interesting discussion, Scott. Thanks for posting it. It has made me consider things that I may not have considered before.

[C. Squier]

Clint

I must watch what I say re USA, but in truth I have no real experience of US golf or its courses to offer any comment. While I have seen many photos, they are just a drop in the Ocean.  However, yes I have seen some very interesting courses that look great and seem to offer fun with a challenge (if we could only get rid of the cart tracks and distance aids).

In addition, the game I believe is not all about long air shots and I enjoy more ground contact than some of you guys. Expect that the links influence creeping in, but I would not change that for the world.

May not have given you an answer that you may have been looking for.

Melvyn

Let's not make this about the golfer.....so that makes the conversation about distance aids/carts/ball flight off limits.  

I've never been to your side of the pond, so my point of view has limited use as your does about US courses.  However, from what I have seen of links courses in Scotland is that they play firm, drain well, natural rippling contours, low-lying vegetation and wind plays a huge role on day to day playability.  Those variables seem to be from the course's proximity to sea.  However, what if you could produce those variables without being near a sea?  It seems that the US has courses in the middle of the country that play just like that...namely Prairie Dunes, Sand Hills and Ballyneal, amongst others.  

To me, it's about how the course feels and plays.  The sea certainly adds an intangible to the mix, but it seems similar land can exist without it.  Which is why defining a "links course" seems to be so difficult.

[Rob Rigg]

Agree.

Links golf:

1) walking
2) often played on the ground and always under F&F conditions
3) design integrates naturally with the setting
4) wind

The interesting question is can you play links golf at a course that is not a links - obviously if the strictest definition is maintained.

Does links golf define a links course?

If not, what is the golf at Chambers and Ballyneal because it is certainly not your typical American target golf experience.

[Scott Macpherson]

I guess I started this meandering thread, so perhaps I can close it.

There seems no better way than a quote from Tom Doak. He said (in another thread on this site)... 'I do not think you can rule out a course from being a links entirely because of grass types ... Some of the links in GB & I have a lot of poa annua in them now, and there are outliers like Humewood.  But it's awfully hard to get the links feel and playability with bermuda fairways ... Kiawah may be close to sea level, but it's mostly manufactured and the playing surface does not remind me of links golf much.'

I agree. It's hard to play true links shots off Bermuda grass (or pretty much any warn-season grass for that matter) Perhaps unless you have played golf off tight, thin, hungry fescue and bent grass fairways, that difference is difficult to describe. For me, links courses are based on sand blown up from  the seashore, do not have many trees, are covered with cool season grasses, and maintain in such a way as the ground shots are a feasible way to play the course.

thanks for every ones input,

Scott

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