[Patrick_Mucci]

Years ago, some on this site were criticizing Atlantic GC for its routing.
In particular for the two (2) crossovers.

Those being critical claimed that no good golf courses ever contained two crossovers and that those features were a fatal flaw in the design, and as such, the course could never be deemed good to great.

Then, I pointed out that Merion had two (2) crossovers and that somehow that didn't seem to be a fatal flaw in its design.  Nor did it seem to disqualify and exclude Merion from the good to great category.

Then I brought up the "walk through the clubhouse" issue in the routing of Merion.

If the individual holes are exceptional, do crossovers taint or diminish the overall quality of the golf course AND the playing experience ?

What other golf courses contain similar crossovers ?

Do any of the original five alternative routings of Merion contain crossovers ?

On what date was the current configuration with crossovers finalized ?

Lastly, is the use of crossovers tantamount to a capitulation by the architect ?

An admission that the architect can't overcome the configuration of the property, and that he can't come up with a fluid routing without implementing crossovers ?

Or,  is it a creative mechanism that enables him to produce the best collection of individual holes ?

Or, a combination of both ?

[Michael Whitaker]

Alwoodley contains two crossovers and I think there is no question it is a good to great course. Since MacKenzie was a member at Alwoodley I would tend to believe that he had every opportunity to alter the routing if felt the crossovers were unwarranted.

Do you think the crossovers at Alwoodley were a capitulation by MacKenzie?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Whitaker,

I'll tell you what I think of Alwoodly and the crossovers ......... right after I play it.

[Michael Whitaker]

We'll compare notes after I play Merion.

[Ben Sims]

Would you consider the crossing of the 5th tee when walking from 11 green to 12 tee at Pac Dunes a severe crossover?  Am I missing the boat again?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Would you consider the crossing of the 5th tee when walking from 11 green to 12 tee at Pac Dunes a severe crossover?  Am I missing the boat again?

Of course you missed the boat, that's why you're a pilot, not a sea captain.

That's not a serious or substantive crossover, IMV.

[Ben Sims]

Learning continues!!

[Tom_Doak]

Be careful from whom you are learning, Ben.

The double crossovers at Pacific Dunes (3-4 and 12-13 at one end, 4-5 and 11-12 at the other) were absolutely the key to getting that routing right, so that we could use the best oceanfront property playing both north AND south.

Crossovers are very difficult to pull off because they force you to get TWO good green sites and TWO tees in a small area, and that necessity sometimes leads to parallel holes of similar length, which is not a plus in my book.  However, getting the routing so a key hazard (waterfront, o.b., a bluff) on both sides of the fairways is important.

Besides Merion there are some other good courses with notable crossovers -- the figure-eight of Pebble Beach and the fishhook of St. Andrews come to mind first.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I don't consider the crossovers at PD to be awkward.

One isn't traversing another fairway to get from one green to the next tee, thus you managed to incorporate them with very little discomfort/disruption to the golfer.

As to Ben's learning process, he could do a lot worse, especially if he listens to that idiot-savant, TEPaul, who recently escaped, again, from Happydale Farms.

When last seen he was driving his Cooper, South, on I-95, with a sign on the car that said, "California or bust".  At the second toll booth, he was informed that I-95 runs North-South, and that he needed to get on I-80 an East-West Interstate.  Sadly, he continued on his way, despite 312 toll booth operators telling him the same thing until he arrived in Daytona Beach, Florida, where he ran out of gas, money, credit and food.  He was finally captured by the Happydale staff when he approached three men in white suits who he thought were Good Humor Ice Cream truck drivers.

[James Bennett]

I assume 'cross-overs' are not holes cutting across each other, but a routing that crosses (a ka Merion).

The poster child for me is North Berwick West, Which enables an out and back loop routing (a ka St Andrews) to become a figure 8.  Start with a few holes on the coast, then inland, return along the coast/sandhills and then swith back to the inside running.  The switch occurs at #4 (a very good par 3) and at the Reden #15.

The switch (or crossover) makes for a very interesting routing.

Alwoodley has crossing holes and cross-overs.  #3 and #16 cross playing lines, whilst a 'cross-over occirs on #7 and #8 versus #13 and #14.  Interestingly, the cross-over involves par 3's played in similar direction, but at a significantly different length (#7 is short, #14 is long).  Again, a very interesting routing for a variation of out and back.

James B

[Ben Sims]

Mr. Mucci,

My education is ongoing, misguided as it may be sometimes (my poor father-in-law swearing to me that conditions are more important architecture) I am humbled by your assertions.  I am interested to see what Stone Eagle holds in terms of this current thread in a week or so. Anything I should be looking for?

[Scott Warren]

Were you the sole golfer playing on a course, would cross overs annoy you? The only thing that annoys me is having to wait for other golfers to play, and in the case of Addington 16 and 17 - it can be worth the interference.

I suppose when courses were designed in the golden age with much smaller fields in mind, it may not have posed such a problem, likewise tee boxes immediately next to greens/other tees

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I recall Ran Morrissett being favourably impressed with the manner in which the Alwoodley routing brought players together at different stages of their rounds. He particularly commented on the neat way in which the 4th green, 5th tee, 16th green and 17th tee were very close to each other. It's something I enjoy about the courses of both clubs of which I am a member, Wilmslow and Conwy. They give you chances to meet lots of different players during the round, not just those who are holding you up in front or pressing you too hard from behind.

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