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Anthony Gray

Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2009, 09:40:42 PM »


  Here we go again...Kalen/Garland.....the feathers are starting to fly.



Andy Troeger

Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2009, 09:59:45 PM »
... I don't think they ever entertained anything but it being a cartball course. ...

If this is true, then shame on them!


Garland,

Not all sites are perfect for walking but it doesn't mean a nice golf course can't be built there.  If memory serves me right, most if not all walked at Sherwood, but it still looks to be a superb golf course to my eye.

Next time your passing thru Western Colorado, give it a play, you won't be disappointed.

Kalen, The reason I posted tha is that  you are selling the architect short. The architects think of far more than we can imagine. It's their job!

As far as I know, no one walked at Sherwood, either round.


Kalen,
Based on Garland's posts, I have a hard time believing he would enjoy or seek out Lakota Canyon. I do agree with you though that it would have been nearly impossible to design a walkable course on that property. Perhaps if there is more land like the back nine it would have been possible. The front going up and down the canyon is pretty well carts all the way.


Peter Pallotta

Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2009, 10:14:40 PM »
George - the first thing I thought is that elevated tees have led to longer golf courses, and have allowed golf course owners to advertise "the 7200 yard course". And they like that, owners do, since, the golfing ego being what it is, someone paying top dollar wants to be able to tell himself and his friends that he shot a good score from the back tees on a 7200 course - even though in  reality (one lost on the golfer himself) the endless series of elevated tees cuts a whole lot of yardage off the card in the actual playing. Also, a ton more money comes in from carts, since these kind of courses can't be walked (and were never intended to be walked) -- they are routed so inefficiently and/or so much earth has been moved to get an unnatural number of elevated tees.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 10:17:17 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2009, 10:27:44 PM »
Greg,

What is the left side missing?

The view from that tee is EPIC! The waste bunkers are RAW and gnarly it is fantastic stuff. Although the course is completely man made the waste areas tie Chambers Bay to its roots as an old gravel and sand mine.

CB is also proof that you can have huge changes in elevation and still create an incredible walking course. Summit in Toronto is similar in that there are a lot of elevated tee shots that provide for great fun and awesome views.

From an architectural perspective, cart ball does nothing but ruin the potential of most properties.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2009, 11:01:34 PM »
I can't imagine George P. (or anyone else) was really trying to argue that they are against a good elevated tee once or twice a round, or even more.  But there are many people who seem to want EVERY hole to play downhill, as Jack Nicklaus once opined.  [Incidentally, I was very surprised on the 14th hole at Sebonack when Jack said NOT to build up the back tee, and just let the uphill hole be uphill!]

Incidentally, Patrick M., Bill Coore does not always build elevated tees.  He likes to build holes with an uphill tee shot and a downhill second shot more than any modern architect I know ... there are a few of those at Old Sandwich and Bandon Trails.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 11:07:28 PM »
Tom Doak,

Being a member of Hidden Creek makes me intimately familiar with his "at grade" tees.

Friar's Head is a nice combination of both.

However, one could suffer from altitude sickness when teeing off at Sand Hills, where the golf course is replete with elevated tees.

They even built an alternate, elevated tee on # 5 that sits beautifully atop the dune.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2009, 08:17:24 AM »
I've grown to loathe the over use of elevated teeing grounds. More routings have been ruined due to their nature. The absolute worst required the repeated awkward  10-20 foot climb on every hole. On that same course the climb out of every green complex made the climb to the tee tame. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2009, 08:48:40 AM »
I don’t mean to sound petty but there are in my opinion different types of elevated tees from extremes like the 15th at Banff Springs to a little rise that gives a clearer view of the hole.

It is possible to raise the tee only about three feet but totally change the view the player will have but not alter the physics of the ball flight.  I think it is more desirable to have a slight raise so that the player can see all that lies before them.  I hate it when playing a tee shot, from a little dip, and you have to have a little jump or find a higher point to see what is ahead.  It is the frustration of not quite being able to see if a bunker lies in a hollow or whether it is a dip in the fairway.

My argument is that where possible a little raise of a few feet is desirable if of course it does not destroy another overriding feature of the hole.  What I mean is if it needed a 20 foot raise to make this possible then the slight blindness of the tee shot would be preferable to destroying the look of the course.

The situation I describe seems to me to always happen on uphill holes where the tee is placed on no amount of elevation at all.  I presume the architect did not think a slight rise on a tee would make a difference to a hole that already climbed anyway?

This actually raises another issue I have when the tee on an uphill hole is just a continuation of the same flow of land as the fairway.  So no separate built up teeing mound, and you end up with a slight uphill stance on a tee shot.  I know nothing is unfair in golf and all that but I like to be treated to a flat tee.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2009, 09:06:42 AM »
George:

I do not like the impact such tees can have on walking but your thesis would need to account for this:




I also think both of your premises are not always correct:


An elevated tee shot can be more intimidating - it makes a tight hole seem tighter:

For example -

1 at Pasatiempo
1 Riviera

Also - often a high tee shot leads to a downhill fairway, making roll more important, not less

Examples:

9, 10,  Augusta national
16 Sand Hills

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2009, 09:22:50 AM »
A really neat example of an elevated tee is the 4th at Betchwork Park in Surrey. (I would post a pic, but remain illiterate on that). Anyway, it's OB right and there are some very interesting fairway bunkers that come into play on most mortal tee shots.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2009, 10:39:57 AM »
... I don't think they ever entertained anything but it being a cartball course. ...

If this is true, then shame on them!


Garland,

Not all sites are perfect for walking but it doesn't mean a nice golf course can't be built there.  If memory serves me right, most if not all walked at Sherwood, but it still looks to be a superb golf course to my eye.

Next time your passing thru Western Colorado, give it a play, you won't be disappointed.

Kalen, The reason I posted tha is that  you are selling the architect short. The architects think of far more than we can imagine. It's their job!

As far as I know, no one walked at Sherwood, either round.


Garland,

That could well be, and I wasn't trying to sell Engh short, I really like his stuff as its very fun golf.  I should also point out, of his courses I've played, his use of the elevated tee was very common, which isn't a problem by me because elevated tees almost always make for an exhilirating tee shot.

I would also agree with Tom D in principle that the best way to go is to have a nice variety of tee shots for optimal balance.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2009, 11:05:18 AM »
I think some holes are fine with elevated tees but I dislike courses with too many elevated tee shots (White Witch type).  RCD seems to have a few good slightly elevated tees and the 15th would be an improved hole with an elevated tee. I'd rather play flat or elevated (10 feet)  t-shots.

I dislike elevated tees that require you to climb up to the tee then walk back down to continue.  RCD is a 9.9 in my books and it loses the .01 because it has the most steps of any links course that I can recall. :)
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2009, 11:07:54 AM »
Ross:

I disagree that raising every tee 2-3 feet makes any significant difference in the average golfer's enjoyment of a hole.  Some people have just gotten so used to it that they automatically object when tees AREN'T raised.  But the only thing it does for sure is require a lot of unnatural fill work to occur.

If you are actually teeing off from a dip instead of a slight natural rise, well that's a case of bad routing, not bad construction.

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2009, 11:21:00 AM »
Tom

I am not saying it should happen on every hole.  But if a course is full of holes where you continually second guess where the bunkers are of the tee it does become tiresome having to hit perfectly good drives out bunkers you had no chance to avoid.  As you say more likely to be bad routing but if a course is bad then every little helps. Of course if you can avoid it then fine but there are lots of courses out there that were not so well blessed when it came to handing out plots.

PS

How is the renaissance golf club doing that you designed in east Lothian, I have not spoken to anyone who has played it.  I fear they may have gone down the ultra exclusive route, not really the Scottish Golfing way is it?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2009, 12:26:36 PM »
I've grown to loathe the over use of elevated teeing grounds. More routings have been ruined due to their nature. The absolute worst required the repeated awkward  10-20 foot climb on every hole. On that same course the climb out of every green complex made the climb to the tee tame. 

Kalen,

Based on Adam's posts, I have a hard time believing he would enjoy or seek out Lakota Canyon.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2009, 03:29:49 PM »
Sorry guys... I loooooove elevated tees and I hate low tees to high fairways.  BUT... if I were a walker, I would understand your pain.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2009, 03:32:49 PM »
Sorry guys... I loooooove elevated tees and I hate low tees to high fairways.  BUT... if I were a walker, I would understand your pain.

Geez Roger, you must have lied on your application for membership. Can we get the moderators to boot this guy!
 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2009, 03:39:27 PM »
Sorry guys... I loooooove elevated tees and I hate low tees to high fairways.  BUT... if I were a walker, I would understand your pain.

Geez Roger, you must have lied on your application for membership. Can we get the moderators to boot this guy!
 ;D

Desire to walk is high (tried nine holes last week)... temporary physical inability to walk is getting better.  300 lbs and half a left knee.  Lucky I can still play at all!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2009, 03:43:48 PM »
Sorry guys... I loooooove elevated tees and I hate low tees to high fairways.  BUT... if I were a walker, I would understand your pain.

Geez Roger, you must have lied on your application for membership. Can we get the moderators to boot this guy!
 ;D

Desire to walk is high (tried nine holes last week)... temporary physical inability to walk is getting better.  300 lbs and half a left knee.  Lucky I can still play at all!

Keep working on it Roger. More power to you! If you check out the KP threads you can see I am near 300lbs, but you can't see that I also have knee probs.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Damon Groves

Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2009, 04:02:29 PM »
Just this golfer's opinion, but I think there's a place for judicious use of elevated tees and that a good architect can use an elevated tee to advantage here or there.  A number of traditional Scottish courses include elevated tees, although I'm not sure of their history.  E.g., 10 at Cruden Bay.  The 7th at Royal Troon's Old Course (from Royal Troon's website: "The seventh is a magnificent golfing hole and is played from an elevated tee perched on top of the dunes."  I agree). 10 at Turnberry (Ailsa). 10 and 11 at Prestwick, as I recall.  An elevated tee sure demands more accuracy off the tee.  And, judging the distance on par threes can be more of a challenge.  From this standpoint, George and I would agree, I believe, when he says: "I don't have a problem with a tee that sits atop a natural rise and thus creates its downhill shot naturally (the ideal course has all sorts of tee shots, obviously). It's mostly the manufactured ones that bother me."


I agree completely. The opening whole at Riviera and Pasatiempo are evelated tee shots and I think most everyone at GCA likes those holes. Number 8 at Kapalua Plantation is another.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2009, 04:34:48 PM »
When I read George's post what I thought of were artificially raised tees.  You know, the sort where the land around is flat then there is this sudden raised 4-8 foot tee.  Even if there is a natural place for a raised tee, I think its a good idea to have lower tees as well even if its only 10 yards one direction or the other.  Just this little alteration can drastically change the way a hole plays and I think many times if the lower tee has a more difficult angle than it can suffice as the medal tee rather than having to go back however many yards to toughen a course using length.  Basically, I am all for width in tees and can't understand why archies don't use this technique to add variety much, much more often.

Sean's opinion is pretty close to what I meant when I started this thread. I'm not referring to the occasional tee perched atop a hill, well integrated into the routing, or your basic downhill hole. I'm referring to when architects go out of their way, either through an elevated platform tee, or perching a tee on a hill that is not part of the routing.

I think the effects of the elevated tee are deleterious to the general attitude of today's golfer. A little mystery is good, you don't need to see everything.

And I'm amazed anyone would feel the added height makes a hole feel or play narrower. I guess maybe that one's just me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2009, 04:52:38 PM »
Chuck:

I really don't like the same kind of tees you like.  Do you think that sort of thing affects your ratings of golf courses, even a little bit?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, it's a good topic.  Mr. Keiser and I have had some debates along the same lines:  "people like elevated tees," he would tell us at Pacific Dunes, "so why fight it?"  Personally, I just like variety.
Tom, I actually recall you saying that very thing, in another context.  And, subconcsiously, I might have written what I did with you in mind.  Which is sort of like my telling Tiger Woods how to read putts.
So allow me to continue in the Doak vein.
You've written about how much you admire Garden City's unforced close-to-ground look.  I agree with you.  I know you feel like you didn't have much to do there, but what about those tees?
You've written about the genius of Seminole's routing, in which Ross used the two dune lines, some of which were utilized for teeing grounds.  Again, I couldn't have agreed more.
I don't equate "squared up" with elevated, neccessarily.  Indeed, I don't equate modest tee elevations with George's original complaint, which was essentially, "tees elevated so much that they reveal more about the hole than is needed, or is wise in order to maintain challenge."
Confession time -- I do think that well-built, well-designed tees do affect my ratings of courses, a little bit.  I plead guilty, but only in the exact way you described.  That style -- the squared-up style -- is, I think, important only that it is one way the architect can express intent -- he can point the player in one way or another.  He can help the player by helping him align, or he can trick the player by aiming him in perhaps an overly conservative direction, forcing the player to "fight" the direction of the tee, and take aim in another direction.
You say you like variety, and you are probably right.  So what else is new?  One thing I'd agree on is that it is easier to run a triplex mower around an oval pad. 
Cheers.  You're always keeping me honest...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 04:56:21 PM by Chuck Brown »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2009, 04:58:02 PM »

And I'm amazed anyone would feel the added height makes a hole feel or play narrower. I guess maybe that one's just me.

George - usually, I agree with you.  However, I believe a tee shot that is significantly downhill to a fairway in a tunnel of trees seems tighter than a flat tee shot. 1 at Pasatiempo is an example as well as a couple of courses I played as a kid in Des Moines.  If you hit a hook, or are in the wind, the ball has a lot more time to curve as it falls. 

Ross Tuddenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2009, 05:24:45 PM »
However, I believe a tee shot that is significantly downhill to a fairway in a tunnel of trees seems tighter than a flat tee shot

I agree and I think a large part of this has to do with the fact that the ball is above the trees for longer and more exposed to the wind.  I always get more concerned about the wind in this situation and it can cause more anxiety standing over the ball.

Another point to raise about a raised tee is that for the shorter hitter it may mean they feel a shorter club is a possibility for a tee shot.  Is this a way to add variety for the player that has to hit driver every time just to give themsevles a chance at hitting a green in regulation?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The elevated tee shot is destroying golf!
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2009, 05:33:22 PM »
Well there is actual physics at work that show downhill tee balls will stray farther off-line than uphill or flat tee shots.

Garland, take care of my light work and give em the details.  ;D

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