[George Pazin]

Not really, I just wanted to get your attention.

I do think the elevated tee shot has removed some of the "sport" aspects of golf. The focus on increased visibility has at least two negative consequences that I'm aware of - feel free to list more if you think of them:

1) It greatly detracts from the architect's arsenal of weapons, if you will.

The discomfort one feels on a tee shot has to have significant effects on one's play, whether conscious or not. A couple examples:

a) the 8th at Oakmont - from the tees, the green looks like a mirage in the distance, fronted by a rather large bunker. Only when the golfer approaches the green does he realize the bunker sits well in front of the green (at least the portion fronting, if not the portion running alongside) and the green itself looks much bigger.

b) How much less intimidating would the tee shot at TPC Sawgrass #18 be if the tee were elevated? Seems to me it would be much less interesting.

2) From the physics side of it, anything that elevates the tee shot necessarily results in a more vertical end to the tee shot as well, meaning less roll and more emphasis on aerial drop and stop golf. I've seen this one several times even in my limited experience playing a few canyon type courses.

On top of those things, most elevated tees are just plain ugly. I don't have a problem with a tee that sits atop a natural rise and thus creates its downhill shot naturally (the ideal course has all sorts of tee shots, obviously). It's mostly the manufactured ones that bother me.

What say you?

[JESII]

Rolling Green (in our neighborhood here in Philadelphia) just rebuilt their first tee complex and lowered the tee height to ground level (from a mere 5 or 6 foot elevation). The couple people I have spoken to think the hole is a full half stroke more difficult...Mayday? Jim Coleman?

[Ronald Montesano]

Country Club of Buffalo lost 500 trees three years ago in an October storm.  The left-side trees protecting the 9th tee from the 2nd tee shot were decimated, as was the framing element of that side of the hole.  The club lowered two of its tees (member and championship) in an attempt to compensate.  I believe that it works.

[Garland Bayley]

The elevated tee shot generally is not golf! It is cartball!

For those who don't realize what George is saying, go play Rustic Canyon. That course went up in my opinion during KP where I made my second tour of the course.

[Chuck Brown]

I agree with George.  However, I still like formal, squared-up, perfect-rectangle tees a la Augusta and most of the USGA's selected championship tracks...

[Eric Smith]

George sorta what you're saying, but elevation can have the reverse effect, causing the golfer to worry about getting his ball safely on the ground.  I tend to let really ugly swing thoughts creep into my head standing on an elevated tee.  You know, the big sky banana slice high over the trees type of swing thought.  Elevated tee shots are not my preference.  Problem is, here in the mountains where I live you tend to see a lot of them. 

[Carl Johnson]

Just this golfer's opinion, but I think there's a place for judicious use of elevated tees and that a good architect can use an elevated tee to advantage here or there.  A number of traditional Scottish courses include elevated tees, although I'm not sure of their history.  E.g., 10 at Cruden Bay.  The 7th at Royal Troon's Old Course (from Royal Troon's website: "The seventh is a magnificent golfing hole and is played from an elevated tee perched on top of the dunes."  I agree). 10 at Turnberry (Ailsa). 10 and 11 at Prestwick, as I recall.  An elevated tee sure demands more accuracy off the tee.  And, judging the distance on par threes can be more of a challenge.  From this standpoint, George and I would agree, I believe, when he says: "I don't have a problem with a tee that sits atop a natural rise and thus creates its downhill shot naturally (the ideal course has all sorts of tee shots, obviously). It's mostly the manufactured ones that bother me."

[Mike Wagner]

If there's any kind of elevation change, it makes sense the architect will have to incorporate a few.  If done properly, I don't see the harm.

The 14th at Chambers Bay may be the best in golf - quite heroic with the waste area guarding the entire left side and a the rolling terrain helping drives down the left side of the fairway (immensely).

[Cliff Hamm]

This is the 5th hole at Blackstone National in Massachusetts, a Rees Jones course.  The actual tee is a bit to the right, higher and further back.  The elevation change is more dramatic than it appears in the photo.

The hole plays 399 from the tips and 344 from the blues. The trap on the right is about 100 yards from the green. It is likely drivable for the long hitter although it tends to be moist in front of the green. For us mere mortals the trap on the right is in play and the one on the left in play in the drier summer months.  As George pointed out the elevated tee does lead to a moist fairway.

In any case this hole certainly fits the land.  The elevation change is purely natural and not contrived.  No matter what it also fits the definition of fun from my perspective.

[Bob_Huntley]

In the considered opinion of many on this site, Cypress Point Golf Club is generally accepted as the the ne plus ultra of golfing  nirvana.

I am not quite sure what you mean by elevated, but the following holes have tees higher than the concomitant fairways.

Numbers 1,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,and 17.


Bob

[Anthony Gray]

  I like watching the ball lauched from an elevated tee. The ball stays in the air longer and goes longer. Oh my God I just got a rush of testosterone.

  Also the aesthetic features of the hole and the surroundings is more visable.

  I like them better on par 4 and 5's than on par 3's.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

If there's any kind of elevation change, it makes sense the architect will have to incorporate a few.  If done properly, I don't see the harm.

The 14th at Chambers Bay may be the best in golf - quite heroic with the waste area guarding the entire left side and a the rolling terrain helping drives down the left side of the fairway (immensely).

I have to ask George at this point exactly what does he mean by elevated tee shot. To me Chambers Bay would be the last place I would look for elevated tee shots. That is because it is a walking course, and most tees are at the same elevation as the previous green; AND the tees are at fairway level.

Since golf is a walking game, any course made for walkers will not have elevated tees to any extent beyond what might be considered good taste in order to avoid a revolt from the golfers.

However, many GCAs will use the modern crutch of the golf cart to bring such ruination as George implies to their alleged golf courses.

PS, I love the 14th at Chambers Bay.

[Tom_Doak]

Chuck:

I really don't like the same kind of tees you like.  Do you think that sort of thing affects your ratings of golf courses, even a little bit?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, it's a good topic.  Mr. Keiser and I have had some debates along the same lines:  "people like elevated tees," he would tell us at Pacific Dunes, "so why fight it?"  Personally, I just like variety.

[PThomas]

Jack Nicklaus has always been a big advocate of elevated tees...was the idea for them as popular before he started pushing them??

[Scott Warren]

I'm with Eric Smith. For a golfer who moves the ball sideways significantly with their driver, the elevated tee brings in more room for error. Couple it with water or OOB and I think it can be a really difficult shot.

The one that comes to mind for me is #5 at Camden Lakeside. The drop would be 40m or so and there is OOB right. I've always felt uneasy on that tee.

[Rob Rigg]

For those who appreciate minimalist design, there may be significant elevation changes within the routing that are unavoidable.

The spectacular 14th at Chambers Bay is a prime example of the architect wisely using elevation within the routing. Not only is the vista of the Olympics and Sound spectacular, but the golfers complete comprehension of what lays between him and the fairway only quickens the pulse on a difficult drive further. It is a wonderful use of an elevated tee shot to maximize the golfing experience.

[Greg Tallman]

For those who appreciate minimalist design, there may be significant elevation changes within the routing that are unavoidable.

The spectacular 14th at Chambers Bay is a prime example of the architect wisely using elevation within the routing. Not only is the vista of the Olympics and Sound spectacular, but the golfers complete comprehension of what lays between him and the fairway only quickens the pulse on a difficult drive further. It is a wonderful use of an elevated tee shot to maximize the golfing experience.

Am I the only one that views the left side as missing something? Are there further landscaping plans to introduce native grasses to what looks like man made humps and bumps the length of the left side?

[Mike Wagner]

Greg,

I understand what you're saying, but it's a waste area.  I think it too much grass would detract from the beauty of the hole. 

[Kalen Braley]

I think the Elevated Tee shot can work really well when the site permits it.

The best example I can think of is Lakota Canyon.  With all the mountain and otherwise gorgeous views, it never gets old.  Its such and extreme site anyways that I don't think they ever entertained anything but it being a cartball course. So in a situation like this, may as well take full advantage of the terrain and let the tee shots soar.

[Garland Bayley]

... I don't think they ever entertained anything but it being a cartball course. ...

If this is true, then shame on them!

[Kalen Braley]

... I don't think they ever entertained anything but it being a cartball course. ...

If this is true, then shame on them!

Garland,

Not all sites are perfect for walking but it doesn't mean a nice golf course can't be built there.  If memory serves me right, most if not all walked at Sherwood, but it still looks to be a superb golf course to my eye.

Next time your passing thru Western Colorado, give it a play, you won't be disappointed.

[Sean_A]

When I read George's post what I thought of were artificially raised tees.  You know, the sort where the land around is flat then there is this sudden raised 4-8 foot tee.  Even if there is a natural place for a raised tee, I think its a good idea to have lower tees as well even if its only 10 yards one direction or the other.  Just this little alteration can drastically change the way a hole plays and I think many times if the lower tee has a more difficult angle than it can suffice as the medal tee rather than having to go back however many yards to toughen a course using length.  Basically, I am all for width in tees and can't understand why archies don't use this technique to add variety much, much more often.

Tom  

I like the squared off rectangular look for practically grade level tees - the kind which look as though they have just cut a section of the grass to create a tee.  If a tee is on a raised landform, I like the tee to take the shape of the landform.  Even if the landform is man made, it should be made an irregular shape just so it doesn't look weird like all those rectangular or circular raised tees that have been popular in the past.  But, I don't think I would downgrade a course for the look of the tees unless it was crazy looking - which the circular tees to me are.  I usually look at it another way and give wee bonus points for creative tee shapes like you did at Sebonak.  Its not too often I would do this, but once in a while - sort of like wee bonus points for the condition of the greens which is very rare for me to do.

Ciao

[Tim Gavrich]

I think elevated tee shots serve as interesting an obstructive purpose between a golfer and a well-hit shot.  The adrenaline-boost that Anthony Gray alluded to is essential to the value of a healthily elevated tee.  I know that when I'm on an elevated tee, I'm tempted to swing a little harder in order to get every last drop of distance out of my drive, which is counter-intuitive.  Thus, just as an uphill and partially blind shot can force a less-than-masterful swing from uncertainty as to where everything is, a downhill tee shot can force a crummy swing from the player who gets a little greedy.  Which shot has more virtue?  I'm inclined to call it even, more or less, acknowledging that too much of either makes for tedium.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not really, I just wanted to get your attention.

I do think the elevated tee shot has removed some of the "sport" aspects of golf. The focus on increased visibility has at least two negative consequences that I'm aware of - feel free to list more if you think of them:

1) It greatly detracts from the architect's arsenal of weapons, if you will.

The discomfort one feels on a tee shot has to have significant effects on one's play, whether conscious or not. A couple examples:

a) the 8th at Oakmont - from the tees, the green looks like a mirage in the distance, fronted by a rather large bunker. Only when the golfer approaches the green does he realize the bunker sits well in front of the green (at least the portion fronting, if not the portion running alongside) and the green itself looks much bigger.

b) How much less intimidating would the tee shot at TPC Sawgrass #18 be if the tee were elevated? Seems to me it would be much less interesting.

2) From the physics side of it, anything that elevates the tee shot necessarily results in a more vertical end to the tee shot as well, meaning less roll and more emphasis on aerial drop and stop golf. I've seen this one several times even in my limited experience playing a few canyon type courses.

On top of those things, most elevated tees are just plain ugly. I don't have a problem with a tee that sits atop a natural rise and thus creates its downhill shot naturally (the ideal course has all sorts of tee shots, obviously). It's mostly the manufactured ones that bother me.

What say you?

Forget what I say, Donald Ross, Coore & Crenshaw think you're nuts.

They've produced exceptional courses with high tees, low fairways and both high and low greens.

One only has to examine the tee shots at Sand Hills to understand their design philosophy when it comes to High tee shots.

As to THE DONALD, he was designing high tees before we were born.

[Garland Bayley]

... I don't think they ever entertained anything but it being a cartball course. ...

If this is true, then shame on them!

Garland,

Not all sites are perfect for walking but it doesn't mean a nice golf course can't be built there.  If memory serves me right, most if not all walked at Sherwood, but it still looks to be a superb golf course to my eye.

Next time your passing thru Western Colorado, give it a play, you won't be disappointed.

Kalen, The reason I posted tha is that  you are selling the architect short. The architects think of far more than we can imagine. It's their job!

As far as I know, no one walked at Sherwood, either round.

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