[PCCraig]

This is from the Kohler website regarding the work that will be done on the Blackwolf Run courses over the next two years;

  "Kohler Co. is moving ahead with a sweeping maintenance initiative at Blackwolf Run in preparation for the 2012 U.S. Women’s Open.  The Championship course will undergo the work in 2009, and the remaining 2 nines will follow the same in 2010.

The plan involves replacing the sand in all of the bunkers and re-seeding all tees, fairways, approaches, green surrounds and putting greens with new Bentgrass. The first nine of the Meadow Valleys and holes #5 - #13 of the River course will be in play during the 2009 golf season at the price of the Meadow Valleys.  In 2010, guests will be able to experience The Championship course, the same course routing that will be played at the U.S. Women’s Open in 2012, at the normal price of the River course. 

Beginning in 2011, both golf courses will be in play except for the brief period in 2012 during the U.S. Women’s Open. 

This program comes on the heels of course work to the River course in 2008 that added nearly 400 yards of length to the black tees, now extending the championship tees to more than 7,400 yards, while restoring the original distinctiveness created by legendary golf course designer Pete Dye."

A few thoughts;

1) An interesting sidetrip for GCA buffs will be to see the first layout at Blackwolf Run, the "Championship" course in play all year long in 2010.

2) Did the River Course really need an addtional 400 yards added in new tees? Are they looking to host a men's major in addition to the US Women's Open?

and MOST importantly, 

3) In October I am going to Kohler for my Honeymoon and had a tee time for the River Course. Now with construstion a hybrid course will be in play with the middle holes from the River Course and the front nine of the Meadows. My question is would you rather play the Hybrid course or the Irish course as a 2nd round after WS?

[Tim Bert]

Irish for me but I suspect I will be in the minority with that opinion.

[PCCraig]

Irish for me but I suspect I will be in the minority with that opinion.

Why do you say that?

While the 5-13th holes on the River are probably the best holes from that course (IMO) it is still tempting to play the hybrid course despite having to play the front nine of the Meadows which are probably the worst holes at Kohler.

[Roger Wolfe]

Irish for me but I suspect I will be in the minority with that opinion.

Why do you say that?

While the 5-13th holes on the River are probably the best holes from that course (IMO) it is still tempting to play the hybrid course despite having to play the front nine of the Meadows which are probably the worst holes at Kohler.

I vote for the Irish.  Blackwolf Run is very nice and the Meadows is pretty ordinary.  However, if you are going for the "dunesy, wispy, sandy" experience of playing on the shores of Lake Michigan... BR is a pretty ordinary, "northeast/northwest" type of experience.  On another note, you will have to walk the Irish AND the Straits.  If your 2nd round is with your fiance, or you think you'll be worn out... BR might be the right call.

[PCCraig]

Irish for me but I suspect I will be in the minority with that opinion.

Why do you say that?

While the 5-13th holes on the River are probably the best holes from that course (IMO) it is still tempting to play the hybrid course despite having to play the front nine of the Meadows which are probably the worst holes at Kohler.

I vote for the Irish.  Blackwolf Run is very nice and the Meadows is pretty ordinary.  However, if you are going for the "dunesy, wispy, sandy" experience of playing on the shores of Lake Michigan... BR is a pretty ordinary, "northeast/northwest" type of experience.  On another note, you will have to walk the Irish AND the Straits.  If your 2nd round is with your fiance, or you think you'll be worn out... BR might be the right call.

Actually my fiance is planning on playing both rounds. We are playing the Straits the first day we are there, then were planning on playing the River a couple days later. My idea was to play the better course at each facility. 

[Tim Bert]

Irish for me but I suspect I will be in the minority with that opinion.

Why do you say that?

While the 5-13th holes on the River are probably the best holes from that course (IMO) it is still tempting to play the hybrid course despite having to play the front nine of the Meadows which are probably the worst holes at Kohler.

I have been on the record more than a few times saying that the River is not my cup of tea.  I know most enjoy it, and I'd like to try out the Championship hybrid, but the non-Championship hybrid just doesn't get me excited.  I like Irish 2nd best at the resort, which is not the common opinion.

[Phil McDade]

Pat:

Kohler (the guy who created all this) seems pretty set w/ having WStraits be the course for the men's big events -- two PGAs and a Ryder Cup in the next 12 years or so -- while having the River Course set aside for major women's events. It hosted the US Women's Open about a decade ago (and the course came under some criticism from several of the pros, notably Sorenstam I think, for what some viewed as overly bold contouring on the greens and a few other things). I don't know if another major is in the cards in the near-future for any of the Kohler course -- they have four majors in the next several years, which is a lot for an area not really near a major metro area.

Friends of mine prefer the Irish by a lot over the MValley course.

[Andy Troeger]

I'd take any combination of holes at Blackwolf Run over the Irish Course. The 5-13 River stretch contains some of my favorite holes at the resort. The front of the MV course isn't nearly as good.

I would think you'd get a 50/50 response to that question--it probably just depends on what kind of scenery you like best. Its all Pete Dye obviously.

[PThomas]

 some criticism from several of the pros, notably Sorenstam I think, .

i wonder if Annika's criticisms came after she made a 9 (!!) on the par 4 12th  when it took her several hacks to get the ball on the green after her 2nd went down the embankment short and left of the green!


*** only $55 to play the Irish or "maintenance" course til May 7...i might have to go play the former!

[David Neveux]

I didn't mind th Irish course at all when I was there.  I thought it was a pretty darn good golf course.  Overpriced sure, but so was The Straits and Blackwolf Run in my opinion.  I didn't have the pleasure of playing the Meadow Valley. 

One thing, and I'm sure this will draw a few polar reactions, but I've always enjoyed playing a round on a golf course where they host a major or even a televised tour event.  Bottom Line, it's COOL.  So I would say it's a tough decision, and furthermore I'm not sure you want to be comparing your score with the LPGA players come tournament times . 

If you do play the hybrid, I will be interested to see how you felt about the resulting routing.  Having not played there before I'm sure it will be difficult to compare the true routings at either course.  At the end of the day, I'm sure that either route you decide, your going to have a great day playing golf, particularly with your lady. 

Best Wishes,

Nev

[Matthew Rose]

The River is REALLY long now... all the par-fives are 600+ except for #8. The 11th, which seemed like the longest hole in the world even at 560 yards, now has a 620 tee (!).

#18 has a 510 tee. Also new tees at 4, 7, 9, 12 and 13.

Maybe they're worried that the girls will be hitting it 350 too in a few years?

[Ronald Montesano]

From my one visit, I'd pick the first sixteen holes of the Irish.  17 and 18 were air-lifted in from another course in Pete Dye-land.  I hated the first three holes of MV, but the course is the only one I know that peaks to the 15th and 16th holes.  17 and 18 were decent holes.  I'd probably play the Irish, though.  It gives you a sense of the entire Straits complex, rather than a sampling of both places.

[Tom_Doak]

That just sounds like Pete Dye telling Mr. Kohler he needs to keep the course "relevant," if you ask me.

[PCCraig]

The River is REALLY long now... all the par-fives are 600+ except for #8. The 11th, which seemed like the longest hole in the world even at 560 yards, now has a 620 tee (!).

#18 has a 510 tee. Also new tees at 4, 7, 9, 12 and 13.

Maybe they're worried that the girls will be hitting it 350 too in a few years?

Matt-

I understand their reasoning for updating the bunkers, tees, fairways and the such on the river course. But why in the world do they need to add all that yardage to the course if they only plan on holding women's events at Blackwolf?

[PCCraig]

Does anyone think that they picked the wrong nine from the River Course to be in the "Championship" routing?

I always thought that 5-13 were the strongest holes on the River Course.

[PCCraig]

 some criticism from several of the pros, notably Sorenstam I think, .

i wonder if Annika's criticisms came after she made a 9 (!!) on the par 4 12th  when it took her several hacks to get the ball on the green after her 2nd went down the embankment short and left of the green!


*** only $55 to play the Irish or "maintenance" course til May 7...i might have to go play the former!

$55 really is a fantastic deal, esp. for the Irish.

[jonathan_becker]

I'm bumping this thread because I'm going to be by Blackwolf on Aug 8 for a wedding.

Has anyone played the "maintenance 18" yet this year?  I've always wanted to play the river course (especially 5-13), but having to play the front 9 of the mv as part of the round is a disappointment.  However, that's out of my control. 

I'm playing Erin Hills the day before,  Lawsonia won't fit because of time constraints  , and I've already played the Straits.

Any other thoughts by anyone that's been up there this year?  At a price of $165, is the current Blackwolf offering worth pursuing? 

[Keith Buntrock]

Blackwolf Run is currently hosting the Wisconsin State Open. The River courses 5th-13th holes are serving as the front side. The Meadow Valley holes 1-9 are the back. Today (rd 1) the course played 7093 yards. The scoring average for the field today was 78.76. The 156 player field carded 190 double bogeys and 88 "others". There was little wind (when I played at least) so scoring conditions were favorable.

I had never been to Blackwolf before yesterday and I was very impressed but wondered how higher handicaps could have much fun here. Especially on the River side. Tee to green it may be the hardest 9 holes I have ever played. I thought it was a kind of funny that they sell sleeves of golf balls in the snack shop on the River side.

I thought playing the practice round was stressful enough and then today I had to keep score. I understand every golf enthusiast should play courses like Blackwolf in their lifetime, but how much fun can a high handicapper have when you have to consider purchasing a sleeve of balls from the snack shop just to finish the round?

[Phil McDade]

Keith:

My longtime complaint about the River -- incredibly difficult for the high-handicapper. I don't mind that so much -- there are courses that simply aren't appropriate for the high handicapper -- but Dye keeps insisting these courses are playable for everyone, and I just wonder how he maintains a straight face when he says it.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat C:

The Irish layout is one of the most overdone wretched places I have played. It is Pete Dye and crew gone mad -- absolutely bonkers with the "let's throw everything save for the kitchen sink" at those who play here.

Candidly, I think WS is overdone and benefits from the proximity of Lake Michigan.

You'll have to make the call -- I don't know what specifically constitute the Maintenance 18 but the Irish takes the stance that if you throw together a montage of bumps and bruises and then ipso facto call them a direct link to what you really see when in Ireland.

In addition, playing there can also be a real death march as little is done for those players who believe that making a moose (score of 10) on nearly every hole needs to be officially holed out in order to tell the boys back home you played the course from all the way back. The best idea when playing there should be the need for management to have sections of the Sunday NY Times on each tee box so you can catch up on a bit of reading as you wait to play your next tee shot.

Anyone leaving out Lawsonia Links for the Irish is in serious need of a long time stay in the rubber room.

[Keith Buntrock]

Keith:

My longtime complaint about the River -- incredibly difficult for the high-handicapper. I don't mind that so much -- there are courses that simply aren't appropriate for the high handicapper -- but Dye keeps insisting these courses are playable for everyone, and I just wonder how he maintains a straight face when he says it.


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I'm not sure the River course would be playable for everyone from the 150 yd marker. It just can't be much fun to be going to your bag to pick out new ball after new ball.

[Andy Troeger]

Phil and Keith,
Would you have the same playability complaint about the rest of the courses at the resort? Ironically my initial reaction to the River Course was that it was the MOST playable course at the resort, which I suppose isn't saying much. Its still very difficult obviously, but I thought that even with all the water in play that it gave you more room to miss than even the Meadow Valleys (save for the first few holes there that are wide open).

The River is interesting though in that most of the really serious trouble (aka the river) is on the right, including holes #4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. The last few holes things switch to the left, but if you're a slicer that can't control that slice I could see how it would be a long day. If you miss left (and save for a few holes there is often some room to do so), its not nearly as fear inducing.

[Adam Clayman]

Does anyone think that they picked the wrong nine from the River Course to be in the "Championship" routing? NO

I always thought that 5-13 were the strongest holes on the River Course.

It's because you have no clue about what makes great architecture. The nine holes you think are great are all very good golf holes, but they are not great n the context of the whole.

[Keith Buntrock]

Phil and Keith,
Would you have the same playability complaint about the rest of the courses at the resort? Ironically my initial reaction to the River Course was that it was the MOST playable course at the resort, which I suppose isn't saying much. Its still very difficult obviously, but I thought that even with all the water in play that it gave you more room to miss than even the Meadow Valleys (save for the first few holes there that are wide open).

The River is interesting though in that most of the really serious trouble (aka the river) is on the right, including holes #4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. The last few holes things switch to the left, but if you're a slicer that can't control that slice I could see how it would be a long day. If you miss left (and save for a few holes there is often some room to do so), its not nearly as fear inducing.

My experience playing Kohler courses is limited to a practice round and today's tournament round on the River 5-13 and Meadow Valley front side. Playing 9 holes from two different courses gives me a unique opportunity to compare the samplings that I am being exposed to. During the practice round I was paired with 2 higher handicapped players. They had a much easier time with the Meadow Valley nine compared to the River. If you can navigate the tee shots, the River course features some sharp fall offs and bunkers 6-10 feet below the level of the green. Of course the river itself makes appearances on nearly all of those holes. The 11th, 12th and 13th hole are beyond hard for me and my fellow competitors in the State Open. They were the 3 toughest holes today. The par 3 13th holes (our 9th) was playing 205 yards and played to a scoring average of 4.03 today. Tomorrow the rumor is it will be 225 yards. The general public just has a shorter version of that shot (somewhere around 180 yds I think).

Nearly everyone I talked to who is playing in the tournament is saying their strategy is to "hang on" on the River side and try to score on the Meadow side.

[PCCraig]

Does anyone think that they picked the wrong nine from the River Course to be in the "Championship" routing? NO

I always thought that 5-13 were the strongest holes on the River Course.

It's because you have no clue about what makes great architecture. The nine holes you think are great are all very good golf holes, but they are not great n the context of the whole.

Another wonderful, unfounded, and totally stupid remark from Adam Clayman.

This has been a recent trend in which Adam comes onto a thread and makes a general remark about how a poster or everyone is wrong...but then doesn't explain. In no point in this thread did I say that the holes were "great," only asking if they are the strongest nine holes on the River Course.

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