[PCCraig]

Phil and Keith,
Would you have the same playability complaint about the rest of the courses at the resort? Ironically my initial reaction to the River Course was that it was the MOST playable course at the resort, which I suppose isn't saying much. Its still very difficult obviously, but I thought that even with all the water in play that it gave you more room to miss than even the Meadow Valleys (save for the first few holes there that are wide open).

The River is interesting though in that most of the really serious trouble (aka the river) is on the right, including holes #4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. The last few holes things switch to the left, but if you're a slicer that can't control that slice I could see how it would be a long day. If you miss left (and save for a few holes there is often some room to do so), its not nearly as fear inducing.

My experience playing Kohler courses is limited to a practice round and today's tournament round on the River 5-13 and Meadow Valley front side. Playing 9 holes from two different courses gives me a unique opportunity to compare the samplings that I am being exposed to. During the practice round I was paired with 2 higher handicapped players. They had a much easier time with the Meadow Valley nine compared to the River. If you can navigate the tee shots, the River course features some sharp fall offs and bunkers 6-10 feet below the level of the green. Of course the river itself makes appearances on nearly all of those holes. The 11th, 12th and 13th hole are beyond hard for me and my fellow competitors in the State Open. They were the 3 toughest holes today. The par 3 13th holes (our 9th) was playing 205 yards and played to a scoring average of 4.03 today. Tomorrow the rumor is it will be 225 yards. The general public just has a shorter version of that shot (somewhere around 180 yds I think).

Nearly everyone I talked to who is playing in the tournament is saying their strategy is to "hang on" on the River side and try to score on the Meadow side.

A scoring average of 78 is very high in a State Open. It has to be an advantage to play the Meadows first in order to warm up prior to the River nine.

[Andy Troeger]

Keith,
The Meadow Valley front nine really isn't all that good--I'm sure they can set it up to play difficult if that's their goal but other than a couple holes not much stood out to me. I remember liking the 2nd greensite. No question the River nine is harder, but I think it has a lot more memorable and interesting features.

It also sounds like they have significantly lengthened the River since I was there, so its very possible you might be playing it from tees that I'm not even aware of. The course from 7,000 yards or shorter seemed pretty reasonable, but if they've really extended it then I'd tend to agree that it would just be brutal from back there.

[Phil McDade]

Phil and Keith,
Would you have the same playability complaint about the rest of the courses at the resort? Ironically my initial reaction to the River Course was that it was the MOST playable course at the resort, which I suppose isn't saying much. Its still very difficult obviously, but I thought that even with all the water in play that it gave you more room to miss than even the Meadow Valleys (save for the first few holes there that are wide open).

The River is interesting though in that most of the really serious trouble (aka the river) is on the right, including holes #4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. The last few holes things switch to the left, but if you're a slicer that can't control that slice I could see how it would be a long day. If you miss left (and save for a few holes there is often some room to do so), its not nearly as fear inducing.

Andy:

All my misses are right; thus my views on the course

I think both courses are pretty demanding. I haven't played the Haven courses.

[Carl Nichols]

Does anyone think that they picked the wrong nine from the River Course to be in the "Championship" routing? NO

I always thought that 5-13 were the strongest holes on the River Course.

It's because you have no clue about what makes great architecture. The nine holes you think are great are all very good golf holes, but they are not great n the context of the whole.

I haven't played any of the courses at Kohler so don't have an opinion, but this is nothing more than ipse dixit -- it really needs some support. 

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

All my misses are right; thus my views on the course

I think both courses are pretty demanding. I haven't played the Haven courses.

I think you have a point--I love the place which probably leads to be somewhat blind to its faults.

This thread reminds me of when I head friends in the Indiana Am when they had it at Victoria National. There were a lot of scores in the high 80's and even the 90's out there. I didn't think that course was beyond reason either when I played it this year, but its also definitely difficult. I have to wonder if my bar is higher than most though having played many really hard courses the last few years.

[Adam Clayman]

Can't you tell when someone is channelling Tommy Naccarato?

How would you suggest they route all the infrastructure on those nine holes? There's no room for crowds or facilities.

Your question begged the response it got since you stated you felt those are the strongest holes.  They are not strong unless you consider trees, rocks and rough the pinnacle in design elements. Their construction ruined a great golf course. But it's all good since ignorance and greed for profit seem so common place.

Salieri...

[Phil McDade]

Andy:

All my misses are right; thus my views on the course

I think both courses are pretty demanding. I haven't played the Haven courses.

I think you have a point--I love the place which probably leads to be somewhat blind to its faults.

This thread reminds me of when I head friends in the Indiana Am when they had it at Victoria National. There were a lot of scores in the high 80's and even the 90's out there. I didn't think that course was beyond reason either when I played it this year, but its also definitely difficult. I have to wonder if my bar is higher than most though having played many really hard courses the last few years.

Adam:

Funny you should mention Victoria National -- I had a nice conversation recently with a GCA poster who had just played it, and regarded it as a really quite difficult golf course, lots of forced carries and cape-like tee shots, demanding with little room for error.

Adam -- Blackwolf Run did host a recent ('98?) US Women's Open, with very large crowds, and I heard not one complaint about the course being able to handle crowds and such. There were complaints among some of the competitors about the course, but I don't recall complaints about infrastructure issues at the River course.

WStraits is entirely set up to host big tournament -- the course sits by the lake, with almost all of the tents and merchandise stuff on level ground that sits above the course.

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, They didn't use the holes 5-13 for the 98' open. Just as they are not using it for the next event.

The fact that they still let people play the original routing is respect enough for that original course. Too bad the tenth can't be played as original as it was one of Pete's most humorous greens.

Pat, Do yourself a favor and play the original routing. But make sure you play the original tenth teeing ground too.

[PCCraig]

Phil, They didn't use the holes 5-13 for the 98' open. Just as they are not using it for the next event.

The fact that they still let people play the original routing is respect enough for that original course. Too bad the tenth can't be played as original as it was one of Pete's most humorous greens.

Pat, Do yourself a favor and play the original routing. But make sure you play the original tenth teeing ground too.

I have 

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, They didn't use the holes 5-13 for the 98' open. Just as they are not using it for the next event.

The fact that they still let people play the original routing is respect enough for that original course. Too bad the tenth can't be played as original as it was one of Pete's most humorous greens.

Pat, Do yourself a favor and play the original routing. But make sure you play the original tenth teeing ground too.

I have played the original routing with the original 10th green (the "humorous" dead flat green). It can still be played in tournaments and special play days as of a few years ago. Again, I only made a general comment the choice of River Course nines to which, instead of giving a reasonable explanation, you typed out some asshole comment about "great" architecture.

I would do yourself a favor and channel Tommy Naccarato again...by saving your bullshit attitude for Max's Lounge

 

Did I forget the smiley in my initial post?

Or, ... Did you just prove my point?

[Mark Smolens]

While attempting to stay out of any internecine squabbling about the place  , I must confess that I absolutely love the middle nine holes at BW Run, especially in October when the leaves have turned and the salmon are swimming up the river.  Is it great "architecture"?  Perhaps not.  But for a fun, thrilling ride of white knuckle golf holes, admittedly difficult but playable for the chops I've been there with (including myself), it makes for a fun couple of hours (or, more properly 85 minutes if the denizens of this site are to be believed).

[Adam Clayman]

Mark. I felt the exact same way about those holes. Exactly. But that was almost 20 years ago and I've learned a few things since.

[Andy Troeger]

But that was almost 20 years ago and I've learned a few things since.

What does that even mean?



In general, where has anybody really mentioned any specifics of poor/average architecture in that stretch of holes other than they aren't the originals and they are a fair distance from the rest of the course. I don't care for #13 and I've heard complaints about #12 on other threads, but #5, 8, 9, and 11 are wonderful IMO.

[Adam Clayman]

What that means is that before learning about GCA, studinh it and expoeriencing it my initial opinion was ignorant. 

[Andy Troeger]

What that means is that before learning about GCA, studinh it and expoeriencing it my initial opinion was ignorant. 

That's essentially the same thing you said the first time just phrased differently. I was hoping for some specifics. I thought what Mark said was pretty spot on but your last two posts put together basically call that opinion "ignorant" and claim you have some additional knowledge. You might be right, but we'll never know unless you come out with it...

[Keith Buntrock]

Round 2 of the Wisconsin State Open was today on this composite course. The scoring average rose from rd 1s 78.76 to 79.11 in rd 2. Winds were gusting to about 10 mph today. The cut came at 154 (top 60). The course today played 7066 on the scorecard compared to 7093 on day 1. I laid up on 2 of the par 4s, it wasn't worth the it to risk making the cut or making an "other." Of the 60 players to make the cut, 19 are amateurs.

Tomorrow is the 36 hole finale. I hope I have enough golf balls.

[Adam Clayman]

The original course at BWR, the River and Valley nines, was a work of art. It's whole was greater than the sum of it's parts. With the addition of the new nines, The Meadow and 5-13 on the now River course, took this work of art and ripped it in half.

What's interesting is how good many of the #5-13 holes are, as individual holes. Yet, as a whole, the River course is not as good a golf course as it was when it was the River-Valley.

What I think this illustrates is how having 18 strong golf holes does not necessarily make a great golf course.

 




 

[Andy Troeger]

The original course at BWR, the River and Valley nines, was a work of art. It's whole was greater than the sum of it's parts. With the addition of the new nines, The Meadow and 5-13 on the now River course, took this work of art and ripped it in half.

What's interesting is how good many of the #5-13 holes are, as individual holes. Yet, as a whole, the River course is not as good a golf course as it was when it was the River-Valley.

What I think this illustrates is how having 18 strong golf holes does not necessarily make a great golf course.

Adam,
Take this for what its worth, but that strikes me as mainly an emotional response--the original course was undoubtedly great just given the holes that one can still play (17 out of 18). I wonder if you would like the River better had you never seen the original, or perhaps if I would like it less had I played the original. Even playing the "original" in its current form without the old #10 I don't think would really do the same thing if one had already played the River Course.

I don't see a big difference in quality between the 5-13 stretch and the back nine of the Meadow Valleys as it stands currently. The River holes might be a smidge ahead in my estimation, but that may because #10 isn't much of a hole now. #12-15 on the MV is as fine a stretch as exists on the property.

[Jeff Goldman]

Adam,

All of the holes in the original 18 near the clubhouse didn't bother you?  "Modern" holes totally manufactured from crummy flatland? Especially compared to the other more natural holes around the course?

Jeff

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, As you know Pete always seems to get a pass on the manufactured angle. Maybe it's his Raynor/Langford up bringing. But heres my thoughts; (Feel free to bang away on me and call me names. I can take it)

Specifically, the holes near the clubhouse, exemplified with the rear mounding on Gotcha (#3) and the horrible pond holes (the original #4 and #5), were part and parcel to the ebb and flow of this particular piece of art. Pete basically set us up with that stuff and The clubhouse was actually pretty cool to look at, being that I was a city boy. The lynch pin, for me, was always #6 Sandy Pit(?) this is where Pete made the leap from the first 5, foreshadowing the nature and classic golf that was to come. It is a thrilling and sometimes humorous ride insides Pete's head as far as the golf is concerned. The Valley nine with such beauties as Natures Course (#14) juxtaposes that earlier part of the journey, eloquently. To me, they compliment each other well and in my eyes that justifies the earlier use of the less natural. Other faves; Hole 12 with the reverse redan green and 13 Table Top, and #15 "Mercy"were both terrifying and indescribably enjoyable. I couldn't wait to get back to them.

There was lot to learn from that golf course. I had to wait to learn all this GCA stuff first, then in recollection, formed my opinion.

In the current routing there's a return to the pond hole #14 after playing in the forested river bottom. It's flow makes no sense as journeys go.

[jeffwarne]

Phil and Keith,
Would you have the same playability complaint about the rest of the courses at the resort? Ironically my initial reaction to the River Course was that it was the MOST playable course at the resort, which I suppose isn't saying much. Its still very difficult obviously, but I thought that even with all the water in play that it gave you more room to miss than even the Meadow Valleys (save for the first few holes there that are wide open).

The River is interesting though in that most of the really serious trouble (aka the river) is on the right, including holes #4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. The last few holes things switch to the left, but if you're a slicer that can't control that slice I could see how it would be a long day. If you miss left (and save for a few holes there is often some room to do so), its not nearly as fear inducing.

My experience playing Kohler courses is limited to a practice round and today's tournament round on the River 5-13 and Meadow Valley front side. Playing 9 holes from two different courses gives me a unique opportunity to compare the samplings that I am being exposed to. During the practice round I was paired with 2 higher handicapped players. They had a much easier time with the Meadow Valley nine compared to the River. If you can navigate the tee shots, the River course features some sharp fall offs and bunkers 6-10 feet below the level of the green. Of course the river itself makes appearances on nearly all of those holes. The 11th, 12th and 13th hole are beyond hard for me and my fellow competitors in the State Open. They were the 3 toughest holes today. The par 3 13th holes (our 9th) was playing 205 yards and played to a scoring average of 4.03 today. Tomorrow the rumor is it will be 225 yards. The general public just has a shorter version of that shot (somewhere around 180 yds I think).

Nearly everyone I talked to who is playing in the tournament is saying their strategy is to "hang on" on the River side and try to score on the Meadow side.

A scoring average of 78 is very high in a State Open. It has to be an advantage to play the Meadows first in order to warm up prior to the River nine.

Ick.........
aren't there nonstops to the UK from Chicago?

[Jeff Goldman]

Adam,

I understand the emotional connection to the original course, but it seems like you're saying that if the holes near the clubhouse had been better, more natural, THAT fact would have disrupted the thrill of getting to the better holes, and made for a worse golf course.  Would Ballyneal or Sand Hills benefit from lousy holes to emphasize the contrast with the great holes?  would either be better if the 15th hole was a copy of the 17 at TPC?

Hard to say if it is the fact of the new, roller-coaster holes, the cartball, or just the emotional connection and memory of playing the original that does it for you.  Actually, if Pete had had access to whatever land he wanted for the original 18 (a lot of it was off-limits), I think he would have come up with a better overall course than anything that's out there now.

Jeff

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, Don't we have to put ourselves in the context of the times? 1987-88 was a weird time for golf course construction. One could even argue that it's product led to the masterful more natural courses you mentioned.
 
Im not sure it's a romantic or emotional view that I have. (although I'll admit to being a teensy bit angry over the near loss of the original. Since it's still 99% playable I'm not angry)  I just know that the course grew in it's naturalness, in a way the current does not. The impact of those later holes (Valley nine) was all set up by the earlier ones. And truthfully, the mounds between #1 and #2 and the 4th and 5th holes, due to the artificial pond, are the only objectionable aspects of the courses design, from a natural viewpoint. (angular architecture aside)  After the 5th hole there is very little one could call a bad hole. Even by today's standards.

My comments are meant to contrast the original route with the current River courses route. Rather than have a journey that leads somewhere, as the old original did, the current routing of the River course goes nowhere, in a journey/adventure sense. Mostly because we come back to that stupid Pond hole the current 14th and the course doesn't utilize the Valley nine.

 I'll say it again, each of those holes 5-13 of the current River course are all fine and fun golf holes, but, they do little to accentuate the whole course and make for a weaker (not as great) golf course. It's falling position in the rankings over the years suggests that it has lost a lot of luster.

 One of the keys that tells me Pete was thinking about all this naturalness stuff, as instrumental, was his NOT putting a rear exit ramp on the 14th hole. Forcing the golfer to retrace back towards the fairway, getting another glimpse of the most serene untouched area that sits between 14 fairway and 15 green. If someone sees that, and feels nothing, they are either unaware about anything but their own selves and game, or, are emotionally inept to feel the serenity on display.

I remember the scorecard had the quote from Pete " The most natural setting for golf I have ever seen". I didn't even know what that truly  meant until years later when I first read the home page to this website. So, once again, I don't think I'm basing this opinion on emotion, just applying what I learned from being exposed to the early days of GCA.com when core and artistic principles  were paramount considerations in both text and subtext of most discussions.

[Phil McDade]

Bumping from nearly a year ago, and an interesting debate that ensued about the Blackwolf courses and the merits of new vs. original routings.

For 2010, what the Kohler folks are calling "the original championship" layout is what you can play if you visit Blackwolf Run. It's the back nine of Meadow Valleys course (#10-18), then holes #1-4 and 14-18 at the River course. It's the course that will be used for the U.S. Women's Open in 2012, according to the Kohler website.

The rest of the courses, as mentioned on the first page of the thread, are undergoing a major maintenance project.

[Michael Dugger]

Pat:

Kohler (the guy who created all this) seems pretty set w/ having WStraits be the course for the men's big events -- two PGAs and a Ryder Cup in the next 12 years or so -- while having the River Course set aside for major women's events. It hosted the US Women's Open about a decade ago (and the course came under some criticism from several of the pros, notably Sorenstam I think, for what some viewed as overly bold contouring on the greens and a few other things). I don't know if another major is in the cards in the near-future for any of the Kohler course -- they have four majors in the next several years, which is a lot for an area not really near a major metro area.

Friends of mine prefer the Irish by a lot over the MValley course.

I thought that Women's Open was fabulous that year.  Chewi-Porn dropped that huge putt to make it into a playoff.  Great stuff...

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