[Scott Warren]

I played all 27 at Princes with Jamie Barber today. It was a good day for links golf, with a gentle northerly/nor-wester gathering pace as the day wore on.

All in all, I think there are some great holes at Prince's Dunes 1, 5, 6 and 8; Shore 3, 5, 6 and 9; Himalayas 2, 4, 7.

I didn't much like the Himalayas, sort of a mix of characters that didn't feel like it gelled. Pity too that the post-war reconstruction that saw the original "Himalaya" bunkers ignored has not been amended.

By shifting the 8th to a dogleg right, the 9th could play from the 8th green site over those bunkers in the dune, kinking left to allow the current approach angle into the existing green. It would be an exciting hole that would help to earn the course some attention, IMO.

I really enjoyed the Dunes and Shore nines, and thought the bunkering was a bit all over the shop - plenty of them in places that just were not in play and other areas that are screaming for a trap. That one factor if improved would make a HUGE difference!

The playing surfaces were top notch, though it scared me a bit that Jamie pointed out that in summer a lot of balls are lost just a metre or so off the fairway as the rough grows and creeps in! I thought the level of difficulty/punishment today was fair. I think I could get very frustrated playing it in summer.

I'd be interested in seeing Dunes/Shore again, played back to back as an 18 hole course.

Some pics:

The beautiful 5th on the Dunes nine.



The green of the par 5 6th on the Dunes nine, set naturally in the side of a dune, obscuring the right side from the layup area 100m short.



The par 3 8th on the Dunes, a 200m par 3 that forces you to work the ball of the slopes to the right side in the hope of accessing a pin hidden behind the front left trap.



The par 3 3rd on the Shore nine. A nice mix of a trap on the high left side and lonish right, with a collection area right that leaves an uphill pitch. The slope short is mown close to help the ball run away if it pitches short.



The 9th, a par 4, of the Shore nine is one of the three or four fairways that features "Deal style" undulations.

[Tony_Muldoon]

By shifting the 8th to a dogleg right, the 9th could play from the 8th green site over those bunkers in the dune, kinking left to allow the current approach angle into the existing green. It would be an exciting hole that would help to earn the course some attention, IMO.

Scott that is how the hole used to play before WW2 and the great Laddie Lucas once drove the green!  However the new owner Sir Ainsley Bridgland forbade his architects to design any blind shots when the course was reconstructed.

I think a fair criticism of Prince’s would be that it has great land that provides lots of awkward lies but it mostly ignores the possibilities of elevation that the site offers.

Tell us more did you enjoy it? I find it just about the hardest place to judge distance on and yet I grow increasingly fond of a number of holes that can appear similar on first viewing.

The good news is that Jamie has offered to host a number of us soon and I hope we can meet up then.


PS it is traditional to include picture of your GCA partner teeing off – like you did with Chappers – this is know as ‘The Ass Shot’ by our American cousins!

[Sean_A]

I still find it incredible that folks could think the land at Princes is uninteresting.  Scott's pix put that idea to rest. 

Tony - I think the idea of 27 holes over essentially the same ground that used to house 18 holes made it very difficult to traverse or use the dunes for the purposes of a green.  The Dunes/Shore is actually pretty packed in there. 

Scott - thanks for the pix!

Ciao

[Bob_Huntley]

Scott,

When I see three cooling towers in the beauty of the English countyside, I immediately think of Blake's poem on those "Dark Satanic Mills."

Can there be a more jarring moment on a golf course than seeing the squat cooling towers as your aiming point on a gorgeous golf hole?

As I grew older and did a bit of reading I was almost ready to believe his comments were directed at Oxford and Cambridge Universities with their attitudes to the Church of England.

Bob

[Scott Warren]

Scott that is how the hole used to play before WW2 and the great Laddie Lucas once drove the green!  However the new owner Sir Ainsley Bridgland forbade his architects to design any blind shots when the course was reconstructed.

I think a fair criticism of Prince’s would be that it has great land that provides lots of awkward lies but it mostly ignores the possibilities of elevation that the site offers.

Tell us more did you enjoy it? I find it just about the hardest place to judge distance on and yet I grow increasingly fond of a number of holes that can appear similar on first viewing.

I did enjoy it. I think perhaps my enjoyment was tempered somewhat by playing all 27 back to back, for the last 6 or so I was too tired to swing a club properly and didn't take it all in as well as I could have.

I was torn between really enjoying what is there (especially on Dunes/Shore) and seeing quite a few missed opportunities, from routing down to maintenance practises around bunkers.

On future visits I would certainly make time to play Prince's again. Not every visit, but certainly I want to go back.

PS it is traditional to include picture of your GCA partner teeing off – like you did with Chappers – this is know as ‘The Ass Shot’ by our American cousins!

This is the best I can offer:

[Tony_Muldoon]

PS it is traditional to include picture of your GCA partner teeing off – like you did with Chappers – this is know as ‘The Ass Shot’ by our American cousins!

This is the best I can offer:

Perfect

[James Bennett]

Scott

you will often get the opportunity to take multiple shots og a GCA'er as hey try to extricate themselves from a pot bunker.  Inevitably, there are 'Hitler experiences' (two in a bunker) which make great GCA  opportunities.

PS  I would describe Princes' bunkering as simply effective - very simple in style compared to the deep pots of Deal.  Certainly not as penal as Deal.  Deal is certainly 'the real deal' when it comes to hazards.

James B

[Scott Warren]

Perhaps not a bad composite course:

1D - 4
8S - 3
4D - 4
5D - 4
6D - 4
5S - 4
6S - 5
7D - 5
8D - 3
OUT - 36

9S - 4
1H - 4
2H - 4
3H - 3
4H - 4
6H - 5
7H - 3
1S - 4
9D - 4
IN - 35

Site layout


and afterremoving the holes I haven't used

[Jamie Barber]

Scott - good company - although like you today I'm feeling the effects (I'm knackered)!

The bunkering is my "criticism" of Prince's. I don't think there is anything wrong with the bunker maintainance (unfortunately we didn't get any shots of some of the newly rivetted traps which are quite fearsome). As Scott suggests having a shaved "gathering area" would add interest to some certainly.

For me, it's more that bunkers are maintained is some positions which are largely irrelevant or punishing the shot which is already in (a lot of) trouble. If I had free reign and money, I would look to add some more greenside hazards. Having said that it's also a balancing act - when the rough takes off during the spring the course becomes considerably more difficult. If the bunkering becomes too punitive it could make the course a bit of a slog for the club player.

Two other changes I would make would be:

- Two new championship tees; further back on 2nd of Shore to give a serious carry to the fairway in tournament play, and 7th of Dunes I would play from the back of the current tee of 5th shore

- Some of the new bunkers are fearsome being large and deep with steep sides, but unimaginative in shape. I'd reshape a couple (e.g the 8th of Shore)

I liked Scott's idea to bring the Himalayas bunkers back into play, that would be a great addition although I don't see the will to make it happen.  I'm not sure however the suggested 18 hole routing would be workable as-is (the walk from 2nd to 3rd would be ~300 yds!). Plus I think the club likes the benefit 27 holes bring (not least the 3 tee start). Personally if I were seeking 18 holes, I think re-routing of individual holes would be required, rather than playing existing holes in a different sequence.

Although there are a lot of holes on Shore/Dunes (at the widest point you can count six fairways wide), I've never get the feeling the holes are cramped or crowded. For me Prince's always has a sense of seclusion and freedom - of course helped by the site which is the most remote of the Sandwich Bay 3...

I'll try to post some pictures later in spring when the rough takes off, it really frames the holes beautifully

[Mark Pearce]

When I see three cooling towers in the beauty of the English countyside, I immediately think of Blake's poem on those "Dark Satanic Mills."

Can there be a more jarring moment on a golf course than seeing the squat cooling towers as your aiming point on a gorgeous golf hole?

Bob,

One day you must make the trip to Seaton Carew.  Those cooling towers exude natural beauty compared to the backdrop there!

[Scott Warren]

Jamie touched on one thing I forgot to mention, that being just how remote the course feels, and certainly I would say there isn't a hole that didn't feel spacious. I was actually quite surprised last night when I took a look at the site map to see just how close some holes are to each other (1D and 8S, for instance), because it definitely doesn't feel that way when you're playing them.

[Jamie Barber]

I also forgot to mention that Scott doesn't fit what I expected from our antipodean cousins. It was hovering around ~8C with a fresh northly breeze and he plays in a sleeveless shirt! I had 3 layers and a hat ... and a warming fry up after 18!

[Scott Warren]

By sleeveless shirt, he means normal polo a sleeveless jumper/sweater, not like I was in a tank top!

As a matter of clarification, my suggested composite course was for use in tournaments etc, not suggesting for a minute that the holes I didn't include should be closed or anything. Was just suggsting a smiliar idea to what Royal Melbourne does with it's East/West Composite course.

[Jamie Barber]

^ I think it's the R&A that selected Shore/Dunes and that seems to be the combination used for all the bigger events... although they do use Hims for some regional stuff (local area PGA etc).

Personally I think they are the best two 9s, although I think 6-9 on Hims are as good as any of the holes.

Interesting story was that when the course was re-assessed by the R&A for local final qualifying ahead of the Open being back at RSG, the chap turned up to check if the course was tough enough, played the 1st of Dunes, took an 8 and walked off saying only, "yeah, that's fine"!

The story would sound better had you not made it look so easy with that nonchalant par-par start

[James Bennett]

The Himalaya's - NLE, but still there

[Jamie Barber]

Indeed (and you would be amazed how many balls they still swallow!). If you look on Google Maps it appears to show the outline of the original tee, although at ground level you cannot make it out

I recently came across a Players cigarette card from 1936 showing the pre war course (hand drawn) including the bunkers. It's very apparent that the bunkering was a lot heavier pre war, especially green side. Perhaps that was also another requirement from Bridgeland? I donated it to the club and I'm hopeful they'll be able to expand and frame it.

[James Bennett]

James Barber


Tony Muldoon and others came up with some of these.  It isn't the cigarette card layout though.  Plus, a pic of the old Himalayas

[James Bennett]

double post.  Doh

[Jamie Barber]

Yes - I found them when I was still just "lurking". Interesting stuff. If I can get a picture of the cigarette card I'll post it (stupidly I didn't scan it)

[Jamie Barber]

Tony - just for you!

[Richard Pennell]

I recently came across a Players cigarette card from 1936 showing the pre war course (hand drawn) including the bunkers. It's very apparent that the bunkering was a lot heavier pre war, especially green side. Perhaps that was also another requirement from Bridgeland? I donated it to the club and I'm hopeful they'll be able to expand and frame it.

This one?

[Jamie Barber]

That's the one - thanks. I think it's part of a series (I've seen a similar one for St. George's). Although only hand drawn it's interesting to see how heavily bunkered it was (look at 9 and 14).

Currently there's a print for sales on Ebay (again a drawing) showing the original 11th tee shot over the old bunkers

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